RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 4:29:30 AM

Lynnxz

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You can fit 17 people into a Kia?

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:33:18 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

All those Blackwater guys are veterans of elite military units ie. Marine Recon, Army Special Forces and Rangers, Navy Seals, etc. It's not like Blackwater were recruiting people off the streets.
You have no clue who Blackwater recruits...if you do have this information please post it. Your post states the units that Blackwater recruits from but fails to recognize that these are reconisance units not combat units. They are trained to infiltrate,glean intelligence and leave without leaving any trace of thier pressence.

Most of the guys involved in that infamous shooting were former Marines.
Have you a cite to back up this assertion?

Your "Marines are disciplined" argument doesn't hold much merit.
That is an arguement I did not make. I said that Blackwater was a bunch of undisciplined thugs.

We don't have enough people in the military to carry out duties like this.
Duties like what? Murdering indiscriminantly?
The last time I checked the Marine corps is nearly 200,000 active plus a division and an air wing in reserve.

It's a necessary evil, and most Western countries deal with mercenaries.
When was the last time the U.S. used field mercenaries?

Mercenaries have been a part of warfare since ancient times. War is messy, and I don't know why people expect otherwise.
That is why we make rules for it's conduct and have war crimes trials when it is over.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:40:19 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

I think we need to put some of the bailout money towards Blackwater. These are skilled former military personal who are able to do jobs the military can't do for various political reasons which is why they were protecting diplomats in the first place. We can't afford to lose them.

Protecting U.S. embassies is one of the designated task of the Marine corps. Embassies are where diplomats work.
Just which jobs can the military not do that are legal in wartime?

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:42:38 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

That may be so, but they need military background to apply. One of the papers needed for final processing is a DD-214. Those are honorable discharge papers from the military.

No, DD-214 are discharge papers. It will denote the type of discharge an individual got.

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:46:25 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

I thought that was why we have the Marine corps.

H.

Yes. I do not accept the concept of War Crimes vis a vis our soldiers in the field, but I bet there is a differing opinion as to Blackwater which may sway me; be it in regard to Prince or the mercenaries who did the shooting. However, Prince is incredibly wealthy; incredibly republican; incredibly wired (DeVos family and Amway) so I guess the issue is academic.

Your post would seem to indicate that you would disavow the Neurmburg trials in Germany and the war crimes trials that took place in Japan.

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:46:34 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterMonster

They were mercenaries who disregarded all rules and safety of others. Soldiers of Fortune. Really, they were a great opportunity, say if the Army needed something done, but couldn't afford to get their hands dirty...

Such talent wasted.

I thought that was why we have the Marine corps.

H.

People...follow the money. Most of Blackwater were retired military that did just that.

The marines have to follow rules...Blackwater didn't.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 5:50:35 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

That may be so, but they need military background to apply. One of the papers needed for final processing is a DD-214. Those are honorable discharge papers from the military.

No, DD-214 are discharge papers. It will denote the type of discharge an individual got.

H.

Yes, and to my knowledge...could reflect an admin. discharge almost always honorable, medical and even all other dishonorable discharges.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:11:11 AM

HunterS

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quote:

The marines have to follow rules...Blackwater didn't.

Your post displays a distinct lack of knowledge of the 209 year history of the U.S. Marine corps.

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:17:59 AM

HunterS

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quote:

Most of Blackwater were retired military that did just that.

Retired military would indicate that most of Blackwater people are over 40 which is clearly not the case.
Most of the riff-raff in Blackwater were a half click away from a court martial or not recomended for reenlistment and that is why they got out of the service and went into the professional thug trade. They have no honor,no discipline and no loyality to anything but a paycheck.

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:30:17 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

The marines have to follow rules...Blackwater didn't.

Your post displays a distinct lack of knowledge of the 209 year history of the U.S. Marine corps.

H.

Please...I know all I need know of the history of the marines. To suggest that some violate rules and got away with it...of course as in any branch of the military and for that matter any govt. organization.

Blackwater being a private organization was not subject to the uniform code of military justice.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:32:29 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

Most of Blackwater were retired military that did just that.

Retired military would indicate that most of Blackwater people are over 40 which is clearly not the case.
Most of the riff-raff in Blackwater were a half click away from a court martial or not recomended for reenlistment and that is why they got out of the service and went into the professional thug trade. They have no honor,no discipline and no loyality to anything but a paycheck.

H.

Suffice it to say, as well as those that are over 40...many are under 40 with 20 years in the military and many went from the military right into Blackwater...doing the same thing.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:38:31 AM

HunterS

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quote:

Suffice it to say, as well as those that are over 40...many are under 40 with 20 years in the military and many went from the military right into Blackwater...doing the same thing.

Your statement that most of those in Blackwater are retired military means that over half of Blackwater people are 37 or older (please excuse me of rounding up) which is clearly not the case.

H.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 6:50:17 AM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

The marines have to follow rules...Blackwater didn't.

Your post displays a distinct lack of knowledge of the 209 year history of the U.S. Marine corps.

H.

Please...I know all I need know of the history of the marines. To suggest that some violate rules and got away with it...of course as in any branch of the military and for that matter any govt. organization.

Blackwater being a private organization was not subject to the uniform code of military justice.

You obviously know all you choose to know about the U.S. Marine corps.
If you knew what you should know about the U.S. Marine corps before commenting on it then you would know that in it's 209 year history it is repleat with examples of the sort of behaviour we are discussing.
The U.S. Marine corps has a different mission than the constitutionally approved military and as such does not suffer from the same constraints placed on the Army,Navy and Air Force.
Witness the difference between the handling of Mai Lai and Cam Ne durring the Viet Nam conflict...the former being an army incident the latter being the Marines... Then of course there is Nicaragua,Hati,Panama, The Philippines...the list is extensive.

H.

< Message edited by HunterS -- 12/18/2008 6:54:19 AM >

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 7:40:04 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

You can fit 17 people into a Kia?

Very carefully. Perhaps...it was a pleasure. Maybe they were all naked.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 8:41:03 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

That may be so, but they need military background to apply. One of the papers needed for final processing is a DD-214. Those are honorable discharge papers from the military.

Actually the DD-214 is simply the discharge form. You get one no matter the type of discharge. Mine has a specific space to list the type of the discharge. I would assume bad conduct would fit in there as well as honorable.

A quick check indicates Blackwater recruits have to have military service but nothing indicates a requirement of an honorable discharge or service with an elite unit.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 9:41:05 AM

Rule

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Didn't the Clintons once own stock in a company called Whitewater? Has he got stock in this one as well? Whitewater, Blackwater; what is next?

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 9:47:21 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

"Among the 17 killings, three may have been justified

...three may have been justified? That leaves 14 deaths to answer for, no?

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 9:59:53 AM

Nosathro

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According to the article a Blackwater spokes person said that the company focus now on private security and police training. The State Department could if it wants to is reactive there own Security Force which was dismantled under Kissenger. Which according to audit was far more cheap then what Blackwater charged. Further it should be noted that the last State Department Official that was killed happened 1972 in Beruit.

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 10:00:18 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

The U.S. Marine corps has a different mission than the constitutionally approved military and as such does not suffer from the same constraints placed on the Army,Navy and Air Force.

The US Marine Corps is governed by the same Uniform Code of Military Justice as the other military branches. Section 4 of the act that created the Marines specifically puts the Marines under the same military oaths and regulations as the rest of the military establishment, and the especial regulations of the Navy.

How exactly is the Marine Corps not "constitutionally approved"? Given that the Constitution explicitly affords the Congress the power "to provide and maintain a Navy"--and the Marines are to this day a part of the Department of the Navy--their Constitutional status is, if anything, superior to that of both the Army and the Air Force.

Edited to add: The 82nd Congress specifically designated the Marines at the United States' expeditionary force in readiness. In that regard, yes, the mission of the Marines is different from the rest of the military.

< Message edited by celticlord2112 -- 12/18/2008 10:10:21 AM >

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RE: Blackwater may loose license in Iraq - 12/18/2008 11:17:35 AM

Nosathro

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Just a few things. The Marines fall under the Department of the Navy and for purpose under the Navy authority, there is a Commendant of Marines but he is subject to orders by the Admiral of the Navy and Marines are subject to Military Justice. There is a new law that under certain conditions a Civilian court can try a former member of the military for crimes he or she commited while in uniform, such as murder. However this has been use once and not very successful. A DD 214 would show the type of Discharge a member recieved, honorable, general etc.

Pictures published in newspaper about the 5 Blackwater Guards who are being tried for the shotting in the square look pretty young. Will be interesting what the upcoming trial will disclose.

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