Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/17/2008 3:58:41 PM)

Rather than hi-jack the Caroline Kennedy thread I am starting a new one here.
 
Music Mystery really hit the nail on the head with this statement.  I do not think that complete political novices should start at the top of the dog pile nor that entrenched pork-barrel pros should run everything. 

Where is the happy medium?  How about combining experience with good ethics and accountability?  Why is that so much to ask for in America?  Is it because we are addicted to the sound-byte and instant-fix-it methodology?  Pop a pill or buy some software or find someone else to do the dirty work via out-sourcing?  What does the discontent with our political process and leaders say about our society? 
 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
~FR~

While I also look to qualifications, I'm struck by the dichotomy invoked by discussions of who should lead.

One the one hand, proven experience--though that "experience" is often parsed beyond credulity.

But then, we want not old school insiders, but fresh voices, people of the people.

Both reasonable arguments, but both get stretched in self-serving ways to accommodate the speaker at the moment.



SilverMark -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/17/2008 4:07:15 PM)

Wait a second Vendaval, you want, experience, accountability and ETHICS in politics?....
Damn!.....is that possible anymore?



TheHeretic -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/17/2008 7:41:05 PM)

      I like it, Ven.  I've no idea whatsoever how to achieve such a thing, but I like it.



kdsub -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/17/2008 7:57:27 PM)

 My comments are not an answer to the op’s question but to the many who think our congress and politicians in general have no integrity.

I'll bet most...I'll go a step farther... the vast majority of our political representatives care deeply about America and work for nothing but the best of the citizens they represent.

Hell ...just look at the different ideas and ways of thinking on any thread on cm...Now why do you think it is any easier for elected officials to agree. Especially when they must represent the wants and needs of their particular states... As a Senator of New York I could care less about the wants and needs of Missouri and vice versa... that is the reason for pork.

On international issues they would disagree just as much as we do here. I think over the long haul they do a fine job of regulating America.

Butch



came4U -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/17/2008 8:11:22 PM)

Experience and accountability is table-wide in any of life's games.

You don't expect a first day on the job cadet of the police force to work on a murder case, because his dad was a cop.

You don't expect any unknown random person on the internet access to your computer (to fix it, or control it) because he/she says they are a PC repair person.

You don't expect a first day (non parent) nurse to work in the ICU taking care of premmies, because her dad runs the hospital.

You don't expect a daughter who went to great schools who is a offspring of a famous family to be a politician.

Why would you give control to an official that has access to control any of the above in legislature?

questions to ask yourself:

-do/did they contribute to community service?
-have they lobbied (as a citizen) against or for any given act of congress?
-are they expecting special treatment because of their namesake?
-are they educated, coherent and psychologically available for the postion. (bites lip at Sara Palin comments).
-are they religious? if so, in what faith? is that the faith you agree with or at least condone?
-what have THEY done for ME lately???





SilverMark -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 1:58:52 AM)

I was being a smart ass, I believe that most who become interested do have the qualities that Ven lists. There are few rewards in serving and few that succeed past a local level and most do so with good intent. In some cases, there are those who excel and move up the ranks of the political ladder quickly and if they are willing to risk such a position let them have at it! Having once spent a great deal of time working in politics it can be highly rewarding or highly disgusting but rarely satisfying.
Let us all hope that somewhere those people who wish to serve keep coming! Lord knows most do not wish to be involved!



MmeGigs -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 4:53:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U
questions to ask yourself:

-are they religious? if so, in what faith? is that the faith you agree with or at least condone?


I've been voting since 1976, and I've never asked myself this question.  What does it matter whether they are religious or what their faith is? 

Personally, I find this religious litmus test stuff pretty revolting. 



BbwCanaDomme -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 4:55:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U
questions to ask yourself:

-are they religious? if so, in what faith? is that the faith you agree with or at least condone?


I've been voting since 1976, and I've never asked myself this question.  What does it matter whether they are religious or what their faith is? 

Personally, I find this religious litmus test stuff pretty revolting. 


Agreed, religion has no place in politics.



came4U -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 6:49:59 AM)

Are they religious? (see the question mark?) ...as in maybe you dislike religion and they are a strict Baptist.  Do you condone the religion they practice?

I didn't say 'They are religious'. 

What does it matter? lol, to some nothing, to many more ..something.  Ask those who agree/disagree with proposition 8 or with abortion if religion matters in a voting decision. If it didn't matter, it wouldn't come up again and again in polls. 



celticlord2112 -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 8:34:41 AM)

quote:

Agreed, religion has no place in politics.

Religion has a very definite place--in the hearts of erstwhile politicians.

A man with no religion at all--a man with no faith in his heart--is a poor choice of leader, and thus a poor politician.

Leadership requires the courage of one's convictions, which in turn requires a man have convictions, which arise from whatever faith and spirituality--whatever "religion", if you will--dwell within him.



came4U -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 8:39:38 AM)

or...

they can move to Cuba or the USSR.



Musicmystery -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 11:48:08 AM)

quote:

Agreed, religion has no place in politics.


I agree, but that horse is long out of the barn.

Large numbers of people and organizations are exactly devoted to ensuring their religion becomes politics.

That this pisses on the Constitution is irrelevant seemingly, instead creating a mythology (all too widely now believed) that the founders of the U.S. intended it to be a Christian (i.e., evangelical Protestant) nation, even though the bulk of what they cite came about in the late 19th century and early 20th century ("In God We Trust," for example), ignoring the founders were Deists.

Make no mistake--large numbers of Americans PRECISELY want religion to take over the country. Their religion.



rulemylife -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 12:01:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Agreed, religion has no place in politics.

Religion has a very definite place--in the hearts of erstwhile politicians.

A man with no religion at all--a man with no faith in his heart--is a poor choice of leader, and thus a poor politician.

Leadership requires the courage of one's convictions, which in turn requires a man have convictions, which arise from whatever faith and spirituality--whatever "religion", if you will--dwell within him.



So someone without faith and spirituality cannot possibly have convictions?



philosophy -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 1:22:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


A man with no religion at all--a man with no faith in his heart--


....but religion and faith are too very different things. Someone with faith in something does not necessarily have a religion. Likewise, those who pay lip service to religion can be wholly faithless.



Steponme73 -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 2:09:29 PM)

First of all people with ethics, accountability or interity  don't go into politics.  So to find a happy medium will never happen.  People who go into politics go to fatten their own wallets and could care less about us.  Plus most of them can't hold a real job anyway....that is why they go into politics.



Naga -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 2:25:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That this pisses on the Constitution is irrelevant seemingly, instead creating a mythology (all too widely now believed) that the founders of the U.S. intended it to be a Christian (i.e., evangelical Protestant) nation, even though the bulk of what they cite came about in the late 19th century and early 20th century ("In God We Trust," for example), ignoring the founders were Deists.



That is utter horse crap. Mythology is the very thing you are pushing. The Founding Fathers were very much Christian and very much meant this to be a Christian nation. A Deist could not have written the Declaration of Independence which acknowledges that rights come from God. Deists would not have put Moses and the Ten Commandments on the walls of the Supreme Court.

Not only is this part of the beginnings of our nation, but it is also codified in Supreme Court cases multiple times.



Musicmystery -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 2:54:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steponme73

First of all people with ethics, accountability or interity  don't go into politics.  So to find a happy medium will never happen.  People who go into politics go to fatten their own wallets and could care less about us.  Plus most of them can't hold a real job anyway....that is why they go into politics.


Gee, I'd love to see the studies on that.

Share the references?



colouredin -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 3:13:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Agreed, religion has no place in politics.


A man with no religion at all--a man with no faith in his heart--is a poor choice of leader, and thus a poor politician.



I dont agree with either statement. You can have faith without being religious, you can have ethics and morals and people also have convictions that are not based in religion. However I dont think that being religious should prevent anyone from being in politics. I always hope that politicians represent a cross section of our country, of course this isnt the case but it should be. They should be multi-cultural so many voices can be heard.



MadRabbit -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 3:22:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Agreed, religion has no place in politics.

Religion has a very definite place--in the hearts of erstwhile politicians.

A man with no religion at all--a man with no faith in his heart--is a poor choice of leader, and thus a poor politician.

Leadership requires the courage of one's convictions, which in turn requires a man have convictions, which arise from whatever faith and spirituality--whatever "religion", if you will--dwell within him.



Wow....a new high score in myopic, simple minded, and ignorant statements.

But...if we forget about this little thing called "philosophy" and the fact that it provides an alternative approach to the development of a man's convictions and beliefs in regards to moral values and virtues/vices...your statement might be somewhat accurate.

I believe in certain codes of behavior, because I believe they are right and my conviction toward those codes is formed by my own willpower and strength of character, NOT because Jesus told me.

Not everyone has to have fear of a spanking from an imaginary deity in the sky or faith in an unproven belief structure to have conviction to standards of behavior.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Experience + ethics + accountability in politics (12/18/2008 3:57:48 PM)

quote:


So someone without faith and spirituality cannot possibly have convictions?

No.  He cannot.  The one precedes the other.



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