RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market.

RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (Full Version)

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blacksword404 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 11:06:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: also, why should he be behind ars for the rest of his life...that does sound a bit extreme. I don't think running a ponzi scheme should have the same punishment as sometihng like murder. True, a ponzi scheme should not have the same penalty as murder. The ponzi scheme is far worse. Hanged, drawn, and quartered would be my recommended punishment. Hanging them first would exclude D & Q...then it's just pulling apart the garbage. He should be shot to death then thrown in prison for life. Lmao

variation30 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 11:57:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen It seems entirely reasonable to me for him to receive a substantial prison sentence and for his estate to pay a substantial fine such that the stolen funds might be recouped in order to pay out - even at cents in the dollar - those who have fallen prey to yet another scamster. Mr Madof's family may be innocent in all this, but they have no claim to the monies derived from this crime; thus it is reasonable to expect his estate to pay such a fine. That the substantial prison sentence given his age will likely mean he dies in prison is a matter of no concern whatsoever. A signal must be sent here; the punishment for such crimes is so substantial that no one should risk it. It must also be a heavy sentence in that it must set a precedent by which others in the sector found guilty of crimes can be sentenced. If Madof gets five years for such a crime (for instance) then those guilty of lesser crimes can argue for very unsubstantial sentences. And we have to consider that whether he has murdered or not, his private victims are numerous and ruined; we can likely account many deaths to his deeds, whether that is elderly investors for whom the shock and stress will prove too much or younger investors for whom suicide becomes an option. Notions of caveat emptor are redundant here; they are not victims of the market here but victims of a crime. E I'm not a fan of punishments as a deterrent. if someone injures you or your property, the punishment should be equal to the injury inflicted. and no, we cannot account deaths to this deed...as he did not kill anyone. what he did do was take people's money through dishonest means. let's not confuse the two. if he didn't abide by his contract...then he should pay for the injuries that violation inflicted. no more, no less. that having been said - buyer beware.

variation30 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 12:00:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UncleNasty There are already plenty o regulations and regulatory bodies in and with various jurisdictions - local, state, federal. If these bodies and officials would take the time and responsibility to do their jobs from time to time much of what we're experiencing in our economy would not be happening. they do their jobs. they just aren't good at it. this is probably becaues economies cannot be centrally planned... quote: I recall mentioning a while ago some vague details of a governmental and regulatory official in China being charged with accepting a bribe from one of the corps he was supposed to be regulating. He was convicted of the charges and quite literally was hung the day of his conviction. I expect that is pretty good motivation for other officials to do their job and stay on the side of legality. Uncle Nasty now this may just be one of my silly opinions...but I'm not comfortably with a monolithic government that can dish out murder whenever they feel like it for whatever reason. I'd rather have the market deal with such things...

variation30 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 12:10:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers You can't possibly be serious. I can't? [qutoe]You must be too young to know the real business world and especially in corp. America. that must be it! quote: With the 1000's of restated earnings of public corps., the guilty pleas and partial breakup of the major accounting firms who were right in bed with their public corporate scum clients over the last 20 years...you are dreaming. The Madoff world IS the world of wall street while some are singularly more greedy, corrupt and successful than others...for a while. I was not able to root out much substance in that collection of words. quote: It is in fact that very competition for capital in the money (worthless paper) markets that fuels the greed and immorality of wall street, yet you still have this romantic notion of the marketplace voluntarily regulating itself and becoming those virtuous captains of industry. Unbelievable on its face. well first off, why is greed equated to immorality? can you define greed and why it is a bad thing? and this is not a romantic notion. as I linked earlier, there are market niches for industries that watch for potential misdeeds? why do I think these markets will materialize? because there is a desire to have these services. for instance, Aksia did exactly what you just stated was a pipe dream. why did they do this? they did it because it is profitable to provide this service. if they do a good job (which they did), then they will get more profits as more people will come to them to ensure they are not investing in a crook. it seems as if 'greed' enables my romantic notion that if individuals desire there to be markets that watch investors and funds...other individuals will fill that roll. quote: You let the capitalist have an inch...he'll take a mile and the govt. regulators in bed with him were likely dreaming of leaving the govt....to join him. I hate to douse your anti-capitalist paranoia...but who is this 'capitalist' that will take a mile? do you know what a capitalist is? and have we been given facts that members of the SEC were actually 'in bed' with Madoff or oher 'capitalists'? though I am sure that people working in the public sector dream of leaving that area and joining businesses that hire talented individuals.

variation30 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 12:13:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jakelogan01 free markets are the best, of course, except that they are a theoretical construct that doesn't exist. they require a level of fragmentation and information transparency that just doesn't exist. it is not a matter of more or less regulation but a matter of better regulation of markets and competent and independent supervisory agencies to police them (self regulation is a myth at best). the sec is staffed by accountants and lawyers who have no clue about financial markets. the (current) treasury is managed by investment bankers who know about dealing but not finance. the federal reserve doesn't have the necessary access to the institutions it is suppossed to supervise. yes, markets do work. that's precisely why they need good policing why do free markets require information transparency? and what is this level of fragmentation that is necessary for a free market to exist? also, what is the correct way to regulate a market or supervise institutions?

variation30 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 12:15:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 He puposely took away people future. So take away his. This would be cruel but fuck him. did he? his early investors actually got over 10% returns...so he didn't take away their futures. people only had their 'futures taken away' when the market started falling down and people wanted their investment money back. and that money wasn't there, it was in the hands of earlier investors.

blacksword404 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/19/2008 4:33:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 He puposely took away people future. So take away his. This would be cruel but fuck him. did he? his early investors actually got over 10% returns...so he didn't take away their futures. people only had their 'futures taken away' when the market started falling down and people wanted their investment money back. and that money wasn't there, it was in the hands of earlier investors. Well if it's the markets fault then why is he being charged?

rulemylife -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 10:57:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 well first off, why is greed equated to immorality? I think your own thread answers the question. According to news reports, Madoff has a home on Long Island, a Manhattan apartment valued in excess of $5.7 million, and a beachfront home in Palm Beach where he docks his yacht. He achieved this "success" by defrauding a number of charities that had invested with him as well as numerous individuals who were secondary investors. There were many who invested a substantial portion of their life savings with people or companies they trusted, who, in turn, invested with Madoff without the original investor's knowledge. The question, I guess, is when does the amount of one's wealth become enough? When you are already immensely wealthy, but still feel the need to defraud those who will end up devastated by their losses, I pretty much believe that is when you can consider it immoral.

Lorr47 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 2:16:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: also, why should he be behind ars for the rest of his life...that does sound a bit extreme. I don't think running a ponzi scheme should have the same punishment as sometihng like murder. True, a ponzi scheme should not have the same penalty as murder. The ponzi scheme is far worse. Hanged, drawn, and quartered would be my recommended punishment. Hanging them first would exclude D & Q...then it's just pulling apart the garbage. How about after "Hanged" and "Drawn" we insert "Breaking on the wheel"? Then go on to "quartering."

celticlord2112 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 2:23:30 PM)
quote: How about after "Hanged" and "Drawn" we insert "Breaking on the wheel"? Then go on to "quartering." Nah, break them on the wheel first. That way they get to enjoy their demise as well.

LadyEllen -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 2:28:10 PM)
You lot are so unimaginitive for so called sadists. I always liked the idea of bolt croppers to the fingers and toes, one at a time, with someone there to cauterize each wound immediately following each snip and a doctor present to ensure they dont die from shock or such. E

celticlord2112 -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 2:33:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You lot are so unimaginitive for so called sadists. I always liked the idea of bolt croppers to the fingers and toes, one at a time, with someone there to cauterize each wound immediately following each snip and a doctor present to ensure they dont die from shock or such. E Too undramatic. Remember, this is part economic recovery package....we want to put on a good show as well.

LadyEllen -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 5:01:04 PM)
Hey, you can still do the hanging, drawing and quartering afterwards you know? Just important to remember this must not be a drop hanging - the idea is that they strangulate slowly, shit themselves and ejaculate before being cut down. Such hanging takes around 20 minutes to result in death with said discharges occurring at 5-10 minutes, compared to the instantaneous insensitivity by way of the neck breaking by way of a correct drop hanging (assuming the correct drop is used), with death occurring fairly soon thereafter. If the incorrect drop (shorter) is used, there is still danger of the airway being broken and suffocation resulting quickly. An overlong drop will totally ruin the fun, and is quite messy. I suggest hanging for ten minutes until such discharges have occurred; at that point the rope should be cut and the prisoner allowed 30 seconds to gain slight recovery, at which point the disbowelment may proceed. E

awmslave -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 6:12:22 PM)
Madoff is just one visible case. It has become evident there is fraud on every level of government, finances, corporations and so on. I do not really see the way out considering the circumstances (meaning plutocracy).

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 6:51:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You lot are so unimaginitive for so called sadists. I always liked the idea of bolt croppers to the fingers and toes, one at a time, with someone there to cauterize each wound immediately following each snip and a doctor present to ensure they dont die from shock or such. E Too undramatic. Remember, this is part economic recovery package....we want to put on a good show as well. Oh, put me in charge. First thing I'd do, is round up a bunch of crazies, here might be a good recruiting place as any. LOL. Everyday, a person comes in and methodically cuts off the circulation to a piece of his body, while still attached the portion of his body is cooked, and the cannibal I recruited comes in and eats it while attached to his body. If he passes out during this process, eating will stop until he awakens. Meanwhile, of course he is fully restrained, and various men come in and repeatedly have sex, and "lightly" torture him in other ways. This continues, the prisoner, does have one option though, at the end of each day a large stone is placed in front of him, and its positioned in such a way that he can bash his head into it, though not so close as he could muster sufficient momentum to kill himself in one whack. So, he does have the choice of bashing his head into a stone, until he dies. His body would slowly be consumed, Hands, Feet, slowly working our way to the where he has not even stubs. Oh, of course he doesn't need two eyes to get the full terror effect. So, one could be carefully removed while still attached to the optical nerve, and my fine young cannibal (hehe, terrible band), could eat it while he was still using it. Horrifying. If he survives to this point. Then I bring in the loony medical people that like to do operations on people. First, Removing a Kidney then holding it in front of him, squeezing it a bit (whatever), then putting it back in. In the beginning the goal is to keep him alive, and try just to freak him the hell out. Eventually, we'd stop putting back in the redundant organs, infect him aids, hook to an IV, put him in a dark room, and see how long he lives, as after a few months of complete isolation even the company of flesh eating sadist, would be welcome company. I'm sure I could think of something better, given time. LOL.

Lucylastic -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 7:09:58 PM)
Is it wrong that im now totally turned on by all this sadism? Can we throw in some fine filleting de-skinning and salt, maybe some Major pricking in an Iron Maiden?? I hope his balls turn square and fester at the corners scum sucking ditch pigs Lucy

hardbodysub -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/20/2008 10:57:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I think regulation as we have it, is more dangerous than no regulation. Why? Because it gives a false sense of security and trust that things are being watched when they really aren't. If it were truly deregulated, then at least people would realize the shit is dangerous and probably be more careful. Anyway, instead of regulation, why not just require a 100% open books for any company worth over a million or something. I don't know, that is about the only way to make it "safe" and known. Regulators, get bought. Anyway, I doubt much will change, it's fighting human nature. Corruption is innate. The real problem though at the very core is there are to many types of financial instruments. I see little reason why there should be anything more than a long position, and simple insurance. Everything else is just complication. And taxes, should all be consumer side. Simple, anybody could then evaluate companies effectively. Whichever the solution ultimately, I'm sure one component is simplification, as this messes are hidden in the arcane, until they erupt. The reason for the false sense of security is that the regulation we're supposed to have has been gutted by the right wing. The "regulation as we have it" has been virtually no regulation. If, the real problem, as you state, "at the very core is there are too [spelling corrected] many types of financial instruments", what you're really calling for is a serious increase in regulation. The explosion in types and complications of financial instruments is a product of deregulation.

DarkSteven -> RE: Madoff, the SEC, and the Free Market. (12/21/2008 5:35:25 AM)
The SEC is charged with finding skunks like Madoff. There is no question that his hedge fund had red flags galore. The government has a very bad habit of starting up programs and then starting up overlapping programs if they don't work. First question is, why didn't the SEC do its job? Either fix the SEC or dissolve it and replace with a better agency. And eliminate hedge funds while you're at it. They've been underregulated and vehicles for fraud.

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