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Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain must l... - 12/21/2008 2:27:41 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		 Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain must learn lessons from Nazi Germany

At what point does government "stimulus" become government control?

If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?

In the Great Depression, FDR attempted to spend to prosperity.  The one certainty of the New Deal is that FDR became President for life.


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 3:28:49 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

 Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain must learn lessons from Nazi Germany

At what point does government "stimulus" become government control?

If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?

In the Great Depression, FDR attempted to spend to prosperity.  The one certainty of the New Deal is that FDR became President for life.



The majority of people crave order, stability, security and property rights. In uncertain times, they'll allow the government greater control over their affairs: this is a constant in human behaviour.

In terms of 'spending to economic recovery', this policy has worked in the past and it has failed in the past. There isn't one set answer to a recession; a pragmatic solution is required. In actual fact, recessions need time to burn themselves out; there really isn't a magic solution - whether that be spending, tax cuts or whatever else.

Can you put some meat on the bones of this:

If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?
 
What exactly are you talking about?

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 3:32:11 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:


If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?

What exactly are you talking about?

Exactly that.  Government spending can quite easily morph into government control. 


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 6:21:58 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		I watched V for vendetta last night and wondered, how far is a work of fiction from the possible truth.

Like lambs to the slaughter, the majority of Britain believes and does what it is told.


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 6:27:21 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I watched V for vendetta last night and wondered, how far is a work of fiction from the possible truth.

Like lambs to the slaughter, the majority of Britain believes and does what it is told.


I've watched that movie a couple times, myself.  If art is truth, that movie should scare the bejesus out of people.

Alas, it seems Americans are learning the ways of the sheeple as well.  Damn the herd mentality!


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 6:31:41 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		I don't know if I'd want The Archbishop of Canterbury or The Pope or any other religious leader trying to dictate economic policy.
As a layman I wouldn't try to dictate religious policy.
They should be taking care of the business of souls not sales me thinks.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 6:37:45 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I don't know if I'd want The Archbishop of Canterbury or The Pope or any other religious leader trying to dictate economic policy.
As a layman I wouldn't try to dictate religious policy.
They should be taking care of the business of souls not sales me thinks.

Except when it comes to selling one's soul.....then the two policies rather overlap.
quote:

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul?
Mark 8:36

If the world is dollar-denominated, that's very bad business indeed.  Currency has no conscience.


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 6:51:14 PM   
rachel529


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Status: offline 		ya know, celt is right... hey, thats a pun!

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 7:54:12 PM   
SummerWind


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Status: offline 		Wasn't the Archbishop of Canterbury in the scene with the Killer Rabbit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 8:07:04 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		The Archbishop of Canterbury is irrelevant - anybody who gives credentials to anything uttered by a Church of England prelate is seriously misled.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/21/2008 8:25:11 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't know if I'd want The Archbishop of Canterbury or The Pope or any other religious leader trying to dictate economic policy.
As a layman I wouldn't try to dictate religious policy.
They should be taking care of the business of souls not sales me thinks.


Exactly Popeye, I fully agree with you here. I've witnessed the disaster that can happen when Church has too much say in State affairs from living in Poland.. It's not pretty.

I think instead of meddling with the affairs of the economy the Church needs to be working on its own doctrine to bring it into line with modern society.



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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 2:18:40 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

the majority of Britain believes and does what it is told.



In what sense?

You see, 50% of Britons did not turn out at the last general election. This is not an indication of a people who 'believe and do what they're told'; rather it is an indication of general disillusionment with the democratic process. I think you'd be hard pushed to find another nation in the developed world that is as suspicious of politicians and authority in general. Britain has a rich tradition of  fighting state attempts to impose their will - see the history of standing armies, see the history of the police force, see the rail link between England and France and the 'not through my back garden' protests that always accompany these state ventures.

The majority of Britons worked out a long time ago that politics is essentially a rigged game - disillusionment and blind adherence are not one and the same.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 2:20:36 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:


If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?

What exactly are you talking about?

Exactly that.  Government spending can quite easily morph into government control. 



So, how does this work with regard to US government spending on the military. Does this mean the US has spent its way to totalitarianism?

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 2:44:56 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The Archbishop of Canterbury is irrelevant - anybody who gives credentials to anything uttered by a Church of England prelate is seriously misled.



Why?

He's an interesting character and measured in his views - the fact he's a church man doesn't render his views redundant.

A few more like him, and we wouldn't be involved in Iraq.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 3:58:47 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Mr Brown said: "I think the Archbishop would also agree with me that every time someone becomes unemployed or loses their home or a small business fails it is our duty to act and we should not walk by on the other side when people are facing problems."

And meanwhile....

The government was last night denying that it was planning to introduce APR at 24-28% on crisis loans, hitherto interest free.

Mr Brown is far too busy making sure the bankers get gravy with their veal, to be interested in any way about the problems ordinary people are facing. All his fine words dont feed or house anyone.

He fails to act - then calls his failure "strong action". Bunkum and nonsense, unless one is familar with the New Labour dictionary, which features all manner of new definitions for a myriad of words.

Heaven help us. It will either be this lot, the Tories (who at least are open and unashamed about their support for the bankers) or the BNP the way things are going.

Take your pick of which style of fascist you prefer

E

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 5:19:20 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Does this mean the US has spent its way to totalitarianism?

Six months ago I would have said no, not yet.

Six months from now I might say yes.

Today I say God I hope not.


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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 5:35:18 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Does this mean the US has spent its way to totalitarianism?

Six months ago I would have said no, not yet.

Six months from now I might say yes.

Today I say God I hope not.



From what I can gather, the US government has invested heavily in the military for quite some time. This suggests that government spending does not equate to 'totalitarianism', unless of course the US has operated a totalitarian regime for quite some time.

Governments do not spend their way to totalitarianism. There has to be a underlying desire for extremist politics - see Germany in 1932 where the Communist and Nazi parties gained the majority of the votes, or Russia during and after WW1. You have to understand the culture and history of a nation to understand why totalitarianism takes root - Germany and Russia had a history of authoritarian rule (among other things). 

I'd argue that England, and I'd guess the United States is similar in this regard, has a history that does not lend toward totalitarianism; it's a history of a commercial people, which demands certain freedoms such as the freedom to chase individual business initiatives. England is a nation that would infinitely rather be tending to its gardens and making a few quid here and there, than running 'round taking on board big ideas and simplistic solutions.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 7:00:20 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
A few more like him, and we wouldn't be involved in Iraq.


The voice of the people who protested against the invasion in Trafalgar Square wasn't heard because they weren't the Archibshop? Nah... it's that their opinion was as irrelevant as his. War always prevails over reason.

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/22/2008 8:28:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

 Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain must learn lessons from Nazi Germany

At what point does government "stimulus" become government control?

If governments spend their way to economic recovery, will they also spend their way into totalitarianism?



Interesting to note that social welfare benefits are being reformed, eh?

In future if you cant get a job, you will work as directed by government, for your benefits.

Overnight we could have millions of what would be effectively slave labourers if only we could simultaneously ensure the destruction of the economy and independent business such that there are no jobs available except those administering the system and providing its financing.

Yes, this is a wondrous scenario indeed! The rolling back of some centuries of social progress such that the new aristocracy can become fabulously wealthy on the abuse of the ordinary person just like back in the 18th century. All this will be to restore prosperity to the country - something with which no one can disagree, surely?

Now factor in terrorism and legislation and powers to do with that and its all sewn up as long as one keeps the police and army happy. Anyone disagreeing with the new status quo can be summarily executed for their dissent as terrorists. Whilst officially they will be in prison (cant let the masses know what really happens), there is no need for prisons any more - the whole place is one and dissenting prisoners need not be incarcerated with any aspiration for reform - after all there's plenty more where they came from.

I see guile regularly

E

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RE: Archbishop of Canterbury warns recession Britain mu... - 12/23/2008 1:14:00 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The voice of the people who protested against the invasion in Trafalgar Square wasn't heard because they weren't the Archibshop? Nah... it's that their opinion was as irrelevant as his.



Their opinion was entirely relevant; they lacked support, which is an entirely different matter altogether.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

War always prevails over reason.



Nonsense. We use our reason every day to settle disagreements. War is not an every day occurence.

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