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After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 5:41:32 PM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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I've been thinking about forgiveness lately, what it means, what the point is, is it useful.........I read an article a friend of mine wrote on the subject, and it led to the question, What next?

Say you have had an issue with a person in your life, and you have decided to forgive them for their lies/betrayal/meanness/whatever. You're not angry at them anymore, though hopefully you have filed away what they did for future reference. Now what? Does the person just get to carry on with you as if nothing had ever happened, or do they have to "make it up" to you in some way? YOU forgave THEM, now what is their half of the equation? Or isn't there one? Do you just take up where you left off, as if nothing bad ever happened?

Inquiring minds, and all!

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RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 5:54:39 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Depends on the situation.

Sometimes forgiveness is nothing more or less than forgiveness. "I understand what you did, I forgive you for it but I will never be with you in any way again,"

You have to decide what you WANT. You have to decide what leap of faith you WANT to make. THe other person has to WORK to show that their character won't allow for a repeat of whatever they needed forgiveness for. You have to SHOW the other person that your forgiveness won't be thrown back in their face every time something bad happens.

And once you've decided what you want, then you work towards that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 2

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 5:57:25 PM

Sensualips

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When I forgive someone, it has little to do with them and everything to do with me. I do not want to carry around that guilt, anger, resentment, bitterness. Sometimes it can fuel you, but eventually it wears you out.

If I forgive him or her, their response (or lack of) has nothing to do with my conscious choice to let go of whatever negativity put me in that spot.

Now although I may forgive someone, this does not mean I will choose to continue to interact with him or her. For me, forgiveness is very useful. The point is closure and karma and finding my own sense of peace. To me it means working through my reaction to something and then releasing it -- forgiveness means not revisiting the same issue and all the negative feelings associated with it over and over.

I believe it takes a lot of strength to forgive. It is not a question of being a good nice person and making things all happy and okie dokie. It is an issue of self preservation. I do it for me, not for them.

< Message edited by Sensualips -- 1/1/2006 5:58:58 PM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 3

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 6:03:27 PM

LadiesBladewing

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Joined: 8/31/2005
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For most of the individuals that I've worked with, and, in fact, even in our own house, nothing will ever be "exactly as it was" if there was a breach of faith/trust. Forgiveness -does- have a value, for the individual who -does- the forgiving. It enables one to acknowledge that a mistake was made, and to release the anger that can cripple a person if it is held on to. Forgiveness does -not- mean forgetting that something happened, and while "forgive and forget" is widely touted, it is not necessarily healthy to forget when trust has been broken.

The most important thing to remember about forgiveness is that, once something has been forgiven, it should be truly released. This means not bringing it up every time things get rocky, and not using it for ammunition, because if one does that, one has not truly released the incident, but is only suppressing the incident in the interest of peace.

As far as the individual who has broken trust, he or she needs to understand that the relationship will never be the same once trust has been broken. Though a measure of trust may be re-obtained (provided that both parties want to work towards that) the innocence of the relationship will have been lost, and there may always be an undertone of suspicion and a sense of distance that, if it can be resolved, may still leave a haze over the relationship.

When we forgive, we make a choice to recognize a mistake made, and to release our own rage/anger... to let go of them. This does not mean letting go of our common sense, and the level to which we are able to renew the relationship really depends on the magnitude of the mistake, and whether or not we feel that we are going to be able to trust the situation not to recur. Sometimes, in order to be truly able to forgive and get on with our lives, we must let go of the relationship, or the constant poking at the wounds caused by the betrayal never do allow us to let go of our anger and begin to trust again.

For those individuals who -do- decide to stay together, the burden of proof in re-establishing a functional relationship depends on both parties... the forgiver must truly forgive, and must be willing to truly give the other person an opportunity to redeem him or herself. For the individual being forgiven, forgiveness is not a license to see how much one can get away with -- forgiveness is an opportunity to re-build trust, and the road to rebuilding trust may be slow and circuitous... and it may be discovered that, no matter how hard one party tries to let go of the mistrust incited by the betrayal and the other party tries to redeem him or herself, trust can never again be rebuilt enough for the individuals to remain together.

The best solution to all of this is honesty in the forefront. Lies and deceits are almost always found out. Some may lie for years, and think they've gotten away scot-free... only to discover that a small slip or an increasing pattern of relaxed caution brings the walls tumbling down.

If it is too late for this advice, mending broken and betrayed relationships is a difficult road, and the side-effects of betrayal (mistrust, withdrawal, suspicion, anger) should be expected by the betrayer.

Lady Zephyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I've been thinking about forgiveness lately, what it means, what the point is, is it useful.........I read an article a friend of mine wrote on the subject, and it led to the question, What next?

Say you have had an issue with a person in your life, and you have decided to forgive them for their lies/betrayal/meanness/whatever. You're not angry at them anymore, though hopefully you have filed away what they did for future reference. Now what? Does the person just get to carry on with you as if nothing had ever happened, or do they have to "make it up" to you in some way? YOU forgave THEM, now what is their half of the equation? Or isn't there one? Do you just take up where you left off, as if nothing bad ever happened?

Inquiring minds, and all!

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 4

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 6:13:44 PM

MistressFire70

Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
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I am human. I recognize in myself that I cannot forgive AND forget. I see that, if I forget, I could place myself in the same damaging or negative scenarios over and over again. So, while I forgive those who harm me and I forgive MYSELF, I have to take what I learned and do something different. Thus, I can't forget.

This might, later, prove to be a wrong conclusion, but I recognize this is where I am now.

Fire

_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 5

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 6:21:29 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

When I forgive someone, it has little to do with them and everything to do with me. I do not want to carry around that guilt, anger, resentment, bitterness.

Exactly. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person, and everything to do with you. Once you can let go of the anger, bitterness, the betrayal that YOU feel...by forgiving them...your life will be so much more happy.

quote:

I am human. I recognize in myself that I cannot forgive AND forget.

Stated perfectly. You can forgive, but you don't have to forget.

(in reply to Sensualips)

Post #: 6

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 6:24:14 PM

FelinePersuasion

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When my x forgave me he told me explicitly after that he wanted nothing to do with me and he did not forgive me for me, but forhimself so he could let that pain go and move on.

quote:

Forgiveness -does- have a value, for the individual who -does- the forgiving. It enables one to acknowledge that a mistake was made, and to release the anger that can cripple a person if it is held on to

(in reply to Sensualips)

Post #: 7

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 7:22:30 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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Forgiveness is about letting go of the hurt. It doesn't happen immediately. I don't think it helps to file the hurt away for future reference. What does that accomplish? It's better to deal with the incident, the aftermath, then let it go and move forward.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)

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RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 8:32:46 PM

thetammyjo

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I will forgive someone when they do two things:

1) ask for forgiveness
2) seem like they are sorry

Otherwise, over time I just let the feelings go and I make a distance between me and them.

At least in the religious tradition I was raised, God forgave when you sought forgiveness -- I figure I'm not better than God -- because forgiveness was the person who committed the sin, not for the one being asked to forgive.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 1/1/2006 8:33:07 PM >

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 9

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/1/2006 10:25:36 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

Does the person just get to carry on with you as if nothing had ever happened, or do they have to "make it up" to you in some way? YOU forgave THEM, now what is their half of the equation? Or isn't there one? Do you just take up where you

My opinion is that if the person asked for forgiveness, and you decided to forgive, it's time for the offender to work on mending the hurtful act with words and deeds indicating a more thoughtful approach to your feelings... So my answer is no, we don't just carry on; some behavior demonstrating repentance is in order or the relationship is in my opinion irremediable, and the people should part ways with minimal ill feelings, but acknowledging end of relationship resulting.

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 10

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 5:21:04 AM

FTopinMichigan

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Joined: 7/5/2004
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Someone mentioned "forgiving mistakes"...and I don't think "mistakes" actually need to be "forgiven," as much as discussed to clarify expectations. Mistakes happen!

"Deliberate" actions, to me, aren't forgivable. Harsh?...Perhaps!

I see that when someone does something with deliberate and conscious thought and effort, that they don't need to be forgiven...they meant to do what they did. (Kinda reminds me of when you see the little ones on Super Nanny shout and thrash out, "I'm sore-wee!" Yeah...THEY mean it too!

)

I can move on from bad situations, but rarely "forgive" in the traditional sense. In most cases, I move on within the relationship, but might view the relationship differently.

K

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 11

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 6:01:12 AM

Tristan

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I think that forgiveness is simply understanding and accepting that we are all human and capable of making mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes are honest ones and sometimes not. In either case, it's all part of being human. You don't have to like or have any other interactions with the person. You just need to accept that they made a mistake and let go of the anger and resentment you feel.

I think that for the other person, he or she needs to acknowledge and take responsibility for their actions. Once that is done, there is a chance that the other person might really change. They might not change, but it's possible. However, if a person can not acknowledge and take responsibility for his or her actions, then there is very little chance of any change, and it's probably best to just move on with your life.

Tristan

(in reply to FTopinMichigan)

Post #: 12

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 6:07:47 AM

plantlady64

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Joined: 5/19/2005
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Hello There,
There is a big difference between forgivness and being willing to allow the problem to continue for me.
Let's admit, it there are times when signals are mis-read and we all make huge blundering mistakes that hurt others. I can forgive, and have forgiven every person that's ever wronged me in my life except one.

At the moment I'm still searching for a way to even forgive the one I still cling to. I find in forgiving others and using the information to learn enough to not let it happen to me again is where I am at peace.
When I hold on to the anger, frustration, and hurt all I do is allow the other persons actions to control how I feel. Self abuse is not my thing, so I find ways to get beyond what ever causes me pain and let it go.
I usually try to figure out what the other person felt or thought that would make them think their behavior was acceptable. Sometimes I can empathise with circumstances, where this persons perspective came from, and overall in considering the source can find peace.
This does not mean I allow anyone to get away with abusive behavior to me. I speak my mind freely if I feel I've been wronged. I try to explain how their actions hurt me and really show them how I don't condone this behavior.
I am not a fake person so if someone offends me I discuss it with them and make them aware as I want them to have to option to explain their point of view.
The difference is what their actions from that point forward shows.
If the behavior is repetative, I usually will just back that person out of my life & inner circle till their actions merit otherwise.
I stand up for my basic human rights & will not hang around with people I feel don't have integrity or my best interest at heart.
So I guess for me it depends on the particular circumstances and response by the offender.
I can forgive, but I will not forget.
For me trust is like a glass. If you drop it and it cracks it may still hold water, but the integrity has been compramised.
You can make it useful again, but it's not as crystal clear as it was before. If you drop it hard and it breaks, you can pick the peices up and if you have patience, you may even be able to put it together again.
This leaves a vessle that seldom holds water without a lot of detailed work, as the integrity of the vessle was breached entirely. If dedicated and you do patch the holes you may be able to use it, but the integrity begins to take on a mosaic approach rather than a pure, translucent one that has wholeness and integrity. The point is from that incident forward it will never be the same. You can find that level of trust again, but if breached it will be more shattered and worn out. Eventually if continually dropped there is nothing left but shards on the floor to be swept into a dustpan and trashed.
For me once I've been torn asunder emotionally a time or two, I build walls in those arenas and protect myself from the war that rages outside those walls. If the war continues to disrupt a peacefull household for extended periods I will indeed abandon ship.
I will not stay in an abusive relationship. Thank God I have never been physically abused, but I have suffered under severe mental cruelty trying to see if my mate could pick themselves up and move beyond an imperfection that was hurting me. I have forgiven the infractions, but will value myself enough to not suffer under someone who's forgotten my basic human rights again.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 13

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 11:57:51 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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Thanks for your views, everyone! I didn't just want to start out with What I Think.

I am not a grudge holder. I am also not a person who fights, at least not outside my family unit! When my friends and I disagree, we just disagree, it's not the end of the world. I had a PROBLEM with a person in my scene family, who also is in the comic/sf community, so not someone I could just ignore. We had a negotiation of sorts via a third party, who is friends with both of us, and now all is fine, though of course not the same as it was.

I will never forgive my former creature for how he treated me. But long ago I forgave MYSELF for the tremendous lack of judgement and personal courage I showed in getting involved with him, then staying involved when I knew better. There is absolutely nothing he can do to make amends, but I can look back on the good times we had for what they were, and look at the bad things without having a flashback.

Katylied said that there is no point in filing away the hurt for future reference, and as far as holding things in mind for future attack, or to keep the pity party running, I completely agree! But, I do think that past behavior is an indicator of future behavior. If someone shows that Behavior X is no big deal to them, though it is to you, and their response is to just hide that behavior from you, well......it's wise to keep alert for it.

I firmly believe that there has to be evidence that the person being forgiven is actually sorry and is trying to do better. For that to happen, the person actually has to understand what it is that they did, and acknowledge that they caused harm. There is a world of difference between "I'm sorry I hurt you" and "I'm sorry you're hurt".

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RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 12:03:49 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

Katylied said that there is no point in filing away the hurt for future reference, and as far as holding things in mind for future attack, or to keep the pity party running, I completely agree! But, I do think that past behavior is an indicator of future behavior.

I just don't want to see you get in the frame of mind where you take those hurts off the shelf, dust them off and reopen old wounds. It's difficult to move forward when you do that.

As far as indicators for future behavior.....you need to look at circumstances, and how apologetic the other person is, and how deep your need is to forgive the transgression *and* the person. Once you decide to forgive, you must do it wholly, anything less can be poisonous to yourself, and to the other person.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 15

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 12:08:12 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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Glad that we're on the same page!

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Post #: 16

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/2/2006 10:25:17 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

Does the person just get to carry on with you as if nothing had ever happened, or do they have to "make it up" to you in some way? YOU forgave THEM, now what is their half of the equation? Or isn't there one? Do you just take up where you
My opinion is that if the person asked for forgiveness, and you decided to forgive, it's time for the offender to work on mending the hurtful act with words and deeds indicating a more thoughtful approach to your feelings... So my answer is no, we don't just carry on; some behavior demonstrating repentance is in order or the relationship is in my opinion irremediable, and the people should part ways with minimal ill feelings, but acknowledging end of relationship resulting. M

Putting expectations on the act is not complicit with true forgiveness.

Your example is akin to putting someone’s behavior on ''parole'' while you hold-on-to the fears of the past. Those kinds of expectations cause the ''would-be'' giver to self-project their fears into the future, thereby forever dooming themselves into reliving the past.

True forgiveness is a ''Pardon'' of sorts that relieves the giver of resentful feelings. It also corrects our misperception that others have caused us harm, and allows us to see the past/future as not one-in-the-same.

Now... I know you're not down for all this BS, so before I have to hear about Miko's, I'll stop writing ; }

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 17

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/3/2006 12:05:22 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

Your example is akin to putting someone’s behavior on ''parole'' while you hold-on-to the fears of the past. Those kinds of expectations cause the ''would-be'' giver to self-project their fears into the future, thereby forever dooming themselves into reliving the past

That is a great anology! It's absolutely fine with me for my offender to consider himself on parole while I watch his words/behavior for evidence of remorse, and a decreased likelyhood the offensive behavior will be repeated. Would he project his fears into the future? If he does I'm okay with that too, as that'll remind him of what not to do to/with me next time.

quote:

True forgiveness is a ''Pardon'' of sorts that relieves the giver of resentful feelings. It also corrects our misperception that others have caused us harm, and allows us to see the past/future as not one-in-the-same

When I am upset about betrayal or ill deeds done onto me, it takes me time to process it and let it go. I can forgive almost anyone anything, but I definitely hold onto old information for future reference. You know that song, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me? I don't hold onto ill feelings, because they make me feel uncomfortable, but I'll only trully forgive someone who has asked for forgiveness, and has shown they are sorry with their present/future words and deeds.

Now as for your word "correcting our misperception that others have caused us harm", that is a completely different matter; obviously if you haven't offended anyone, and they feel offended, it's up to the two of you to talk and see where communication failed, and why one of you is feeling hurt. I'm absolutely not above apologizing if I cause unnecessary drama as a result of misunderstanding something. If however you did cause harm, but lack the character, humility or balls to own it like a man (or woman, minus the balls), that again is a different problem altogether.

M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 18

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/3/2006 6:17:46 AM

wolffeathers

Posts: 315
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Clearwater
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Say you have had an issue with a person in your life, and you have decided to forgive them for their lies/betrayal/meanness/whatever. You're not angry at them anymore, though hopefully you have filed away what they did for future reference. Now what? Does the person just get to carry on with you as if nothing had ever happened, or do they have to "make it up" to you in some way? YOU forgave THEM, now what is their half of the equation? Or isn't there one? Do you just take up where you left off, as if nothing bad ever happened?

Inquiring minds, and all!

I have a quote.

"I forgive you, but I cannot forget what you did".

I only will forgive something that either;A) the person did with other intentions (such as they were attempting to do something nice, and it turned out to be crap, or B) when the person REALLY proves they are sorry about what has happened.

However, I will not forgive most that betray my trust. Trust is something that I hold in high regard.

And, no, you cannot carry on as if nothing happened, unless you can wipe your mind of the issue.

I still haven't learned how to do that

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 19

RE: After forgiveness........... - 1/3/2006 12:17:42 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

When you forgive someone you are usually simply saying you will continue the relationship even though what happened is always going to be in your mind, affecting things.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 20

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