References ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> References ? (12/29/2008 9:54:19 AM)

I notice that on here many when they reply to a thread, often quote links to material posted elsewhere on the web, obviously to illustrate their answer, but I have to ask about these references, because they are posted elsewhere by others, who is to say that what these linked posters actually post is correct, (going on the assumption that a lot of what is posted on the web is of dubious value ) ?

Why in fact do people feel the need to seek out and link to material elsewhere, is it that they feel they must be right, unchallengeable in their posting ?

Often I have seen posted,  people ask to see a link to material before they will take anyone's point of view, and often if it is the poster's own experience, they are ignored or thought to be lying unless they can provide back up via a link, why?

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?



JustDarkness -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 9:56:50 AM)

quote:

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?


yes sadly.

People post links to help you mostly. It doesn't say "don't think...this is the truth". Best is always to have several sources and cross check them.



DesFIP -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 10:27:43 AM)

Sometimes when the post includes writing that is more formal in speech, the assumption is that the person is in fact not writing what they think, but plagiarizing. This is frowned upon and will get responses demanding that links be given.

But not everyone is that good as a writer, or at organizing their thoughts so they will link to something that expresses their feelings. And they link because they don't want to plagiarize.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 10:34:09 AM)



Personally, I blame college.
We live in a world now where you can't have an opinion on anything unless you can quote your sources of information in a book or report somewhere.

The relevance of personal experience and opinion means nothing much these days...unless you put in your time at a socialist institution or wrote a book somewhere.

Edited to add: I know, I've been in college! Opinion=nothing. Correct answer=regurgitate data



beargonewild -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 10:48:29 AM)

From what I have noticed is a few posters need a link or three as validation before believing the other person's word. My take is many have become so distrustful of people and forget how to give an anonymous person the benefit of the doubt until proven differently.



Aszhrae -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 10:52:44 AM)

quote:

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?


It seems a standard practice these days to ask for pieces of paper, proof, background and letters of referral.
It is a learned trait in a world that believes less in honor and respect of self and others, where proof is required by external sources.
I have found those of a higher education, College or University, tend to provide links to substantiate their points of text. They have been conditioned to think in facts, trusting only reason and not their heart.
Back in '01, I ran away from the present couple and went to stay with a couple in Jacksonville, Fla. While I was there, I found employment very quickly. They could care less of my country of origin, citizenship or whether or not I had a piece of paper as proof. Their attitude was, 'You say you can do this. Show me.' Proof is in an individuals expertise.
These days, its all about your location and the mentality of your peers.
Over the years I have found that those individuals that place more trust in the dollar, tend to put less trust in the word of others.

I can build houses but I can not excavate the land to ready it for the footings. Do you trust my word or do you require references? Of course you would make such a request because it is your house that you asked me to build.
The problem with society is that it wants pieces of paper first before experience.
My father was in construction and my current master is also in construction. My experience is 27 years. Here it is not enough, they want a piece of paper, but when I was stateside on the run, I only had 20 years, but the employer accepted my word.

There are those that others have come before that have ruined it for the rest of us that are value our word. They have sowed the seeds of dishonesty and thus the individual mistrusts everyone, no matter how sincere their motivations might be.



SimplyIsaac -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 10:54:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

From what I have noticed is a few posters need a link or three as validation before believing the other person's word. My take is many have become so distrustful of people and forget how to give an anonymous person the benefit of the doubt until proven differently.



Yep, that too. Then you have those people who have way too much time on their hands and just like going around and around and around in circles...even when you present the data...



CalifChick -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 11:00:42 AM)

Too many bullshit artists with too much reliance on Wikipedia.

Cali



oceanwynds -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 11:06:54 AM)

I prefer personal experiences verses references, though if of interest to me i will click on the link. I just look at people with references as sharing information. It is one way though for me, to keep out all the crazy drama played out on these posts. I rather read a reference then this person is no good or that person is no good, and blah blah blah. Personal attacks on people, or groups of people, is something seen in these posts to frequestly.

oceanwynds



Raechard -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 12:55:01 PM)

There is an internet fact to support every position, see link below:

www.wikipedia.org\growth-of-internet.html

no seriously...

http://www.virtualsalt.com/evalu8it.htm



Vendaval -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 2:07:19 PM)

Much depends on the type of discussion and whether people are using debate tactics to further their argument.  In some instances I go with the flow and just state a personal opinion or observation, in others I post references and sources.



rulemylife -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 3:21:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I notice that on here many when they reply to a thread, often quote links to material posted elsewhere on the web, obviously to illustrate their answer, but I have to ask about these references, because they are posted elsewhere by others, who is to say that what these linked posters actually post is correct, (going on the assumption that a lot of what is posted on the web is of dubious value ) ?

Why in fact do people feel the need to seek out and link to material elsewhere, is it that they feel they must be right, unchallengeable in their posting ?

Often I have seen posted,  people ask to see a link to material before they will take anyone's point of view, and often if it is the poster's own experience, they are ignored or thought to be lying unless they can provide back up via a link, why?

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?



So if I tell you that grass is really blue and not green you'll take my word that you are colorblind without asking me for any proof?



Lynnxz -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 3:30:46 PM)

Every once in a while I will use a reference in an argument, but it's usually something that I've seen before, not the first thing that pops up in google. I've got about five inches of research devoted towards studies done on prostitution on the desk actually, and I'm pretty sure I've used a couple of them in an argument here. They are reliable sources though, a concept a few people here don't understand.

Wikipedia, blogs, and the rantings of crazed conspiracy theorists with nothing to back them up are 'not' resources.



MzMia -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 3:55:55 PM)

Well, I often use "references", but!  I try to only use references with
a certain amount of credibility!

I never use Wikipedia, yahoo, etc.
I really try to only use first rate credible sources. {Usually MAJOR newspapers like
the Washington Post or Crooks and liars}.
Well, Crooks and Liars is a credible source of information? right?[:D]

 I try to explain myself and make my point, hopefully you will
understand what the
point is..........{without having to "check" the references}.
My references are almost always used for "clarity" or another source for information.

I have also recently tried to start more posts, with NO references![:D]

Hopefully, you can understand whatever it is I am posting about, regardless of whether you read a link/reference or not!



thishereboi -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:05:22 PM)

I need more info....maybe if you could give me a couple links...



Hippiekinkster -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:18:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I notice that on here many when they reply to a thread, often quote links to material posted elsewhere on the web, obviously to illustrate their answer, but I have to ask about these references, because they are posted elsewhere by others, who is to say that what these linked posters actually post is correct, (going on the assumption that a lot of what is posted on the web is of dubious value ) ?

Why in fact do people feel the need to seek out and link to material elsewhere, is it that they feel they must be right, unchallengeable in their posting ?

Often I have seen posted,  people ask to see a link to material before they will take anyone's point of view, and often if it is the poster's own experience, they are ignored or thought to be lying unless they can provide back up via a link, why?

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?

It's not a matter of being right; it's a matter of being factual.
It's not that I think anyone is lying; it's that an assertion is nothing more than an opinion.
http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalarguments/a/importance.htm

An excellent compendium of logical fallacies. An interesting exercise is to see how many different ones you can identify in the "political" threads.
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html



Aneirin -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:39:53 PM)

What is wrong with oppinions though, surely when someone asks a question, they are seeking the oppinions of others, not oppinions in general, on the world wide web. If someone sought the oppinion of the world wide web, they would search the web, not ask questions here.

I post here, to stimulate conversation, I ask questions here, because from experience, I have found people here, those that engage on the forums, largely they appear to be of a more flexible and higher level of understanding than other forums I regularly visit. So here, I spend the majority of my web time, rather than other places, and this is the only forum where I have stayed in my four years of internet access. Other forums I have joined, well, most have faded away, here, I like it here, and like most of you people, most of the time.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:52:05 PM)

People are sometimes mistaken when recalling a fact. If you use good references, then your comment is supported. Now the question is, are they verifiable sources? This is one of the problems as a wiki editor. Come across some article that someone has modified or created, and it is linked to a bunch of member.aol or geocties web pages as a verifiable resource.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I notice that on here many when they reply to a thread, often quote links to material posted elsewhere on the web, obviously to illustrate their answer, but I have to ask about these references, because they are posted elsewhere by others, who is to say that what these linked posters actually post is correct, (going on the assumption that a lot of what is posted on the web is of dubious value ) ?

Why in fact do people feel the need to seek out and link to material elsewhere, is it that they feel they must be right, unchallengeable in their posting ?

Often I have seen posted,  people ask to see a link to material before they will take anyone's point of view, and often if it is the poster's own experience, they are ignored or thought to be lying unless they can provide back up via a link, why?

Have we evolved so far that we no longer take a person at their word anymore ?




MzMia -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:53:43 PM)

I agree with Orion!!
There is a big difference between a source such as "The Washington Post",
and sites like Joe'sBullshitblog.com.
 



Aneirin -> RE: References ? (12/29/2008 6:58:14 PM)

Could it be if we all used offsite references to explain our thoughts, we could in fact lose the ability to explain ourselves ?

Could it be also that there is a hint of laziness in gathering words from other people's minds to speak on behalf of us ?

I hate to see the day when it may come that from post to post within a thread, it is just a mass of links to other places, other people, and other people's thoughts, not the person posting that link.





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