RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

MzMia -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 7:57:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

The idea that Jews and Palestinians have been fighting each other over the region for thousands of years is really ridiculous,
Since 'Palestinians didn't exist prior to 1947 this statement is 'prima facia' accurate. By that token any conflict with Christians, can only go back about 2100 years. Israeli / Muslim conflict is more recent by 600 years.

However if you take a tour of the area and any guide, from either side, will tell you there has been dispute over the area between Jews, and other indigenous people going back to the beginning of recorded history. Who started it and who is to blame is contingent upon the ancestry of the tour guides If you need a reference source to that fact - read the old testament of the Bible.

Having only 225 years of history it is difficult for any person who has lived all their life in the USA to relate to living in an area where resentment and hatred go back for 100's of generations ALL having lived in this compressed area. Compound that contempt breeding familiarity with the fact that many of their ancestors died in conflicts with the other side and you have a battle that will be fought in perpetuity or until the complete annihilation of the other side.

There can be no peace.


Great point Merc, I could add that before 1947, that the British Mandate for Palestine has a very interesting history, with a lot of conflicts since the beginning.
There has always been conflict, and many of the Arabs were always against the creation of a Jewish homeland.
British Empire: The Map Room: Middle East: Palestine



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 9:42:41 AM)

But there wasn't hundreds of years of conflict between the Jews and Arabs in the area.  The local jews were  a subjugated class, under a strict apartied system (dhimi).  It wasn't untill modern times that the Jews over there began demanding and asserting human rights.  The Dhimi system was abolished in the 1870s.  Since that time there has been conflict accross the region, not just Palestine.  Bassically the Jews were kicked out of all the other Arab/moslem countries.

The Germans and the French have a far greater history of hatred and bloodshed, they actually did hate and fight wars , with millions of dead grandfathers, for hundreds of years, and they seem to be getting along just fine these days.  Thats where the answer lies.  And the real question.  Of course Arabs and Jews can live in peace.  How were the Europoens able to make peace?   How were the Athabaskans and Innuit able to make peace after 800 years of warfare and hatred?  The Japanese and Koreans?  It is the same answer each time.  And it will work for Isreal/Palestine also. 

Mercs idea that we only have 225 years of history in America to draw on makes no sense to me.  It is the same as people saying Iraq has the oldest human culture on the planet.  Rubbish.  The area has been ethnically cleasned several times, with previous cultures being replaced, just like happened in America.  The History of people in this land goes back 10,000 years.  Modern Iraqis have as much to do with the Babloynian Empire as Rednecks do with the Cherokee nation.  Plus we can draw on History from other places. 




MzMia -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:02:57 AM)

Having read a little bit on the history in that area, I understand what you are saying!
[;)]
Do you feel that it was the British involvement in dividing Palestine,
that has led to and created the situation in the Middle East?

I wonder how the situation would have turned out, without British intervention?



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:14:35 AM)

To a large extent MzMia, but not only British involvement.  

I put a huge amount on the leadership of the Palestinains (and other Arab Leaders), who were planning for merger into Syria after the Nazi victory.  And who had absolutly no goal of a independant Palestine.  Jerusalem was never the capital of an Arab state.  The last time Jerusalem was an independant capital was when Isreal fell to the Romans. 

Then you have to look at the Pan Arabists who pured billions of dollars into trying to destroy Isreal, in order to become the new "Saladin". 



MzMia -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:22:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

To a large extent MzMia, but not only British involvement.  

I put a huge amount on the leadership of the Palestinains (and other Arab Leaders), who were planning for merger into Syria after the Nazi victory.  And who had absolutly no goal of a independant Palestine.  Jerusalem was never the capital of an Arab state.  The last time Jerusalem was an independant capital was when Isreal fell to the Romans. 

Then you have to look at the Pan Arabists who pured billions of dollars into trying to destroy Isreal, in order to become the new "Saladin". 


Thank you for your participation, thinking and reviewing the history
helps to see the current situation in a different light.
Sadly, in the end, lasting peace does not appear to be a reality between the Arabs and the Israelis.



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:34:30 AM)

Sure it is certainly not a reality, they are fighting as we speak.  Yet the possibility is certainly there.  In 1943 the Idea that the Germans and French could live as peacefull neighbors was incredibly far fetched.  Yet  30 years later it was such a reality that people can't even concieve of what enemies they were, for hundreds of years with tens of Millions dead in war.  Unless Jews and Arabs are genetically inferior,  same could happen there.

Something that has not really been brought into play in the threads on the current situation, is the reality that Hamas is funded/guided by Iran/Shiites.  Which is cutting the support of the Sunni Arabs. 



Mercnbeth -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:37:40 AM)

quote:

Mercs idea that we only have 225 years of history in America to draw on makes no sense to me.  It is the same as people saying Iraq has the oldest human culture on the planet.  Rubbish.
I agree. Why then did you make the comparison?

If you believe drawing upon a national history where expansion came at the expense of an outgunned, out-maned, and out organized indigenous people compares to the conflict over any given history of the middle east you'll have to provide some supporting evidence. I mean more than "rubbish".
quote:

Of course Arabs and Jews can live in peace.  How were the Europoens able to make peace?   
Through a 'common' religion enforced by the same dogmatic absolutism as is represented by modern day orthodox Islam.  
quote:

The Japanese and Koreans?
Obviously you have no knowledge of the continuing hatred and resentment between these two people. It may be personified by North Korea, but the memory of WWII atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese will never be forgotten. Currently they are separated by enough water to keep the conflict at a simmering level, but they don't share vacation resorts.
quote:

Athabaskans and Innuit
Resorting to obscure conflicts doesn't support your argument. Besides a better reference would have been the conflicts between native American people. Those wars stopped for the same reason, a common enemy for one, attrition, and coming under the rule of what some would consider an 'occupying' people would others.
quote:

The area has been ethnically cleasned several times, with previous cultures being replaced
Exactly, and each time the polarization is more cemented. Politics change, nations change names, and religions come in and out of prominence; but there has never been a time where there has been peace, with the exception of peace being enforced by absolute rule. Try and find an example of an exception. Unless there was some iron fisted occupation force in place, from the Romans, to the British/French the local people have been at war. The ancient Egyptians had Atum among 27 others going against the Moses' Yahweh. The religions on the other side may have mutated, but the conflict hasn't and won't.



Owner59 -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:39:38 AM)

 
I hope so.There`s a lot of damage to get past,though.

Add to that every ill that befalls men/women.Poverty,massive exploitation of the poor,misogyny,racial and religious bigotry,seething hate and hate mongering,religious fundies doing harm and local and world leaders, either doing nothing or like bush,adding to the problems.

Both sides suffer with these maladies.



tiemeupalso -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:44:02 AM)

this is a religous war.as long as there are jews and muslams there will be fighting between the two.the trick in todays world is how to keep the rest of the world out of it.
This is how i see it ,but then i am neither Israeli nor Arab,nor am i jewish or muslam.Understanding the mindset the two have for each other is not something i am an expert in.



MzMia -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:52:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemeupalso

this is a religous war.as long as there are jews and muslams there will be fighting between the two.the trick in todays world is how to keep the rest of the world out of it.
This is how i see it ,but then i am neither Israeli nor Arab,nor am i jewish or muslam.Understanding the mindset the two have for each other is not something i am an expert in.


Welcome tiemeup!
You have been here 5 years, time for you to start posting more!
 



Raechard -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:53:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
Do you feel that it was the British involvement in dividing Palestine,
that has led to and created the situation in the Middle East?

Britain didn't divide anything other than India and Pakistan. Israel as a state was formed by terrorists and now they are facing other terrorists. Can we instead blame the US and Iran for arming Israel and Palestine respectively. This is a fight by proxy, when is the middle man going to be cut out?



SilverMark -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:56:57 AM)

I, as most, would hope that sooner or later the war between the Israelis and Arab world would stop but, I hold little hope for it. Yes, the Germans and French and the French and English have indeed stopped fighting that went on for centuries but, you have a difference in lifestyles and economies as well as religion involved. The Israelis enjoy a high standard of living in a much more modern society, the Palestinians live in what amounts to the left overs of many conflicts. Religious differences, ancient hatred, economic differences all compound the issues that separate the people in the region. The fanaticism on both sides fan the flames of a fire burning for many, many years. It is indeed sad that one of the most holy of areas for both sides stays in such complete turmoil and that a state of constant war must exist.  



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 10:58:19 AM)

Actually Merc The largst population of tourists to Japan are Koreans, hundreds of thousands a month visit as tourists.  http://www.tourism.jp/english/statistics/inbound.php.  And close to 200k Japanese visit Korea each month.  That is over a million per year.  As well as extensive trade, educational and millitary alliance links.  Ever been to Hawaii?  I see Japanese and Korean share resorts all the time when there.  Your statement is rubbish.

I must have misunderstood you when you said, "Having only 225 years of history it is difficult for any person who has lived all their life in the USA to relate to living in an area where resentment and hatred go back for 100's of generations ALL having lived in this compressed area."  I disagree with the idea there is only 225 years of history to draw on.  I also dispute the idea that all of the Isrealis and Palestinians have lived in the territory of Palestine/Isreal for hundreds of Generations.  Most of the Jews were in Diaspora for most of that time.  And a large number of Palestinians are historically recent immigrants to the region also

I have to say I am unaware of, " a 'common' religion enforced by the same dogmatic absolutism as is represented by modern day orthodox Islam.", that was enforced in 1945 on Europe.  Perhaps you could explain that a little more. 



Mercnbeth -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 11:14:45 AM)

quote:

Ever been to Hawaii?  I see Japanese and Korean share resorts all the time when there.  Your statement is rubbish.
No, beth can't be in the sun too long.
However, the reason 'Romeo & Juliet is a story is because individual relationships do not always reflect national or family politics.
quote:

As well as extensive trade, educational and millitary alliance links.
Trade also takes place between today between companies operating in Israel and Arab nations. If you propose a capitalist relationship precludes war I'll be happy to provide a number of examples to the contrary when capital gains were abandoned for war.
Selectively eliminating the North Korea from the equation tells me you have no dependable position, unless you've been vacationing with North Koreans in Hawaii. 
quote:

I have to say I am unaware of, " a 'common' religion enforced by the same dogmatic absolutism as is represented by modern day orthodox Islam.", that was enforced in 1945 on Europe. 
The religion of Nazism came to the forefront in the '30s and a joint effort was required to eradicate it. Subsequently the religion of capitalism and trade has, so far, joined them. It would point to a solution that if one, or perhaps two, of the major religions in the middle east, were similarly eradicated a similar 'peace' would occur. I'd agree with that outcome and don't stipulate to supporting a preference toward any of the major three. Although based upon recent books I've read, there as much animosity within Islamic factions as they project to the infidels. Should they prevail there still may be a few internal skirmishes to be contended. 

quote:

Most of the Jews were in Diaspora for most of that time.  And a large number of Palestinians are historically recent immigrants to the region also
Yet both consider the area their 'homeland' granted to them by god. I know of no citizen of the USA who feels the same. Your argument isn't with me. You need to reeducated those "recent immigrants" that they are wrong. 



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 11:32:26 AM)

Actually N v S korea is very instrumental. The 2 took a very different path post WW2.  Nothing precludes war.  However economic links are incredibly helpfull in keeping peace.  The 2 Koreas are a perfect example.

I am really confused by your example of Nazism as creating peace. 

You never met an American who felt we were given this land by God?  Your kidding right?

And I notice you completely ducked the statistics on tourism between the Koreas.  If N Korea was not run by a meglomaniac who profits by keeping his people thinking the Japanese will come from the Sea and the Mongols from the North any moment now , tourism would be higher.



servantforuse -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 11:34:02 AM)

In the last few years, Hezbolla and now Hamas have fired 6000 rockets from the Gaza strip into Israel. Their goal, and that of Iran as well, is to eliminate all Jews. The extremeists in Palestine will never change and the fighting will not stop until they are all killed...



Mercnbeth -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 11:38:28 AM)

quote:

You never met an American who felt we were given this land by God?  Your kidding right?
Given that answer at least you've accepted that is the case regarding the people of the middle east.

Unlike that region, an American may feel that way but doesn't have somebody feeling the exact same way, about the exact same piece of land, lobbying mortars over the hill. That, is the point. Glad you got it. Stipulating to all the other irrelevant points you tried to make.



ArticMaestro -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 12:03:14 PM)

Your response speaks for itself and needs no further comment Merc.



Demspotis -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 12:39:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Britain didn't divide anything other than India and Pakistan. Israel as a state was formed by terrorists and now they are facing other terrorists. Can we instead blame the US and Iran for arming Israel and Palestine respectively. This is a fight by proxy, when is the middle man going to be cut out?



Britain also divided Ireland. This was precisely the same tactic as it later used on India: tear away parts of a country (as its independence is being returned to it) predominated by an oppressive foreign minority (Muslims in India, Protestant Lowland Scots in Ireland) to appease them, and thus simultaneously weaken the restored nation by dividing it into mutually hostile pieces. (Background for whoever might need it: (1) the British transplanted Lowlanders, mostly extreme Presbyterians, from Scotland into what is now Northern Ireland, to be ruling class over the native Irish, who were and are mostly Roman Catholic. The Lowlanders are mainly related to the English, whereas the Highlanders are related to the Irish. When the British gave up their claim on most of Ireland, they divided it and kept the part that they had previously filled with Lowlanders, now called "Northern Ireland". (2) Muslims invaders of India, as well as native collaborators, mainly concentrated in the northwestern and northeastern corners of India, both of which the British ripped from India to create Pakistan. The western Pakistanis oppressed the eastern ones, who spoke a different language and were mainly a different ethnic group, Bengali; so the eastern part seceded from Pakistan, with help from India, to become Bangladesh. Sad to say, this did not make the Bangladeshi Muslims any less oppressive to the Hindu minority in their territory. )

As for the Middle East, the British AND the UN divided the remains of the former Turkish Empire into many artificial nation-states, including leaving Asia Minor and a tiny piece of Europe to the Turks; and included in this process the restoration of the Jewish people to their homeland, from which they had been exiled by the Roman Empire approximately two millennia ago. Keeping in mind that the exiled Jews had been under nearly-constant threat of persecution and genocide everywhere they went, except (interestingly enough, Ireland and India!), during that whole time, of which the Holocaust was only the last and worst example, it was right and just to restore them to their own land. Unfortunately, it was not done in a way that could have resulted in peace.

Can they now achieve peace, that being the case? It's possible. The problem at the moment is that some of the major players don't want peace with the other side, they want only total victory. That also brings a kind of peace, but not the kind that we are talking about...  

So, in order to achieve peaceful coexistence, they would need to neutralize the fanatics on all sides, recognize each other's claims on the sacred sites, and to the land and its resources, and to agree to peaceful co-existence, as well as recognizing their shared origins (Jews on one hand and Muslim and Christian Palestinians on the other) as something real and meaningful to them.

~Demspotis





jlf1961 -> RE: Do you think Israel and the Palestinians will ever stop fighting? (12/30/2008 12:41:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Having only 225 years of history it is difficult for any person who has lived all their life in the USA to relate to living in an area where resentment and hatred go back for 100's of generations ALL having lived in this compressed area.

There can be no peace.


I disagree, there are some Americans that have lived with constant conflicts on this continent since the stone age.

Although, many would refuse to give the original inhabitants of the actual credit for actually being here before the Europeans.

Besides, in the middle east it is an ethnic problem, unlike the United States where it is an ethnic problem and the problem of dealing with a group of NON-native inhabitants....

Funny thing, all you folks that supported Kerry in his run against Bush, you should be real glad he didnt win.  He made a statement to the assembly of the Native American Congress at the All Nations Powwow in 2004, vowing to "honor ALL the broken treaties."

If he would have won, think of all the people that would have been evicted from say, Kansas City? the state of Oklahoma? both North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana? 

I did vote for Kerry, since according to the BIA I am native American by virtue of ancestry and genetics.

So, in my honest opinion, all you White, European, Anglo, Saxon, Protestant, Catholic, Hebrew, Muslim males who fail the BIA blood tests need to leave.... the women can stay, most Native American Nations practiced polygomy




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
7.714844E-02