RE: Illinois Irony (Full Version)

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celticlord2112 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/1/2009 9:16:31 PM)

quote:

The senate DOES have the power not to seat Burris.

That is essential question.  Harry Reid's interpretation of Article I §5 holds the Senate does not have to seat anyone they do not want amongst them.  Powell v. McCormack applies a much more circumscribed interpretation of that section, limiting the exclusionary power solely to the substance of an individual's Constitutional qualifications for office.

Is Burris Constitutionally qualified?  On the face of the matter, he is:  he is of age, has appropriate residency, and is not barred from elective office as a result of conviction or other criminal matter.  Moreover, despite Blagojevich's arrest, there is as yet no indication of any corrupt or criminal pact involved in the Burris appointment--and that while some may argue that Blagojevich attempted to "sell" the appointment for personal gain earlier, his ongoing capacity as governor undercuts any argument of "taint" attaching to any subsequent appointment he might make. 

Burris' appointment is not, so far as the law is concerned, tainted by Blagojevich's other legal issues--if that were so, the Illinois Supreme Court would have been required to declare him incapacitated and transfer his statutory powers to the Lieutenant Governor.  The Supreme Court's refusal when so petitioned by Attorney General Lisa Madigan validates Blagojevich's power and peroragative to appoint Burris.

This might drag out for a time, but Reid's certainty that Burris will not be seated seems most unwarranted.




ArticMaestro -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/1/2009 11:43:02 PM)

What ever happened to innoncent untill proven quilty in a court of law?  Democrats seem to not care about that at all these days.  But I guess the longer they want to drag it out, one less Democrat in the Senate...




khalya -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/1/2009 11:49:16 PM)

Legally Blago had the right to appoint Burris. Legally, Burris has the right to the Senate seat. Obstacles can be placed in his way, but I think the politicians should let this one ride, and they probably will.






Lorr47 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 12:02:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

What ever happened to innoncent untill proven quilty in a court of law?  Democrats seem to not care about that at all these days.  But I guess the longer they want to drag it out, one less Democrat in the Senate...


Good point.  But I think his attorneys will get him off long before the matter goes to trial.  Leverage.




pahunkboy -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 5:17:52 AM)

quote:



This will effectively kill his appointment…at least until the impeachment. Quinn then has the power to withdraw the appointment and name someone else.

Butch
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Hunky, put down the bong, step away from the bag and put your hands on top of your head ! In other words that was quite out of sorts with the flow.

Now, as to the topic, I have seen this. I have protected myself legally, even if guilty, and saw it happen more recently. My buddy got busted with a bunch of plants, you know the kind. Well he is aquitted on appeal. Details available on request.

This can happen for you, say on a drunk driving charge.  All you need is the $50,000 lawyer instead of the $1,000 lawyer. Look at OJ Simpson. Anyone else would have been convicted. I said nothing about innocence or guilt, just that without that money, they would have been convicted.

Now you know why law labraries are so BIG.

T



no bong.

why is THIS a sacred cow?  it isnt.   IL and the US are bankrupt.  the grid is not workable.  so to fixate on  a small portion of the grid is  futile.     it is like worrying about mud flaps on a car, when the engine is blown.

who is going to whip out the check book and pay the tab of IL, or USA?

fancy mud flaps dont make the blown engine function.

....BTW- I scored 1/2 oz plat eagle at a good price today.  oh YAAAAAAAAAAAH.




hardbodysub -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 9:14:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

CL, what do you expect, Harry Reid's an Asshole!

He's far too inept to merit the term "asshole", frankly.  "Asswipe" is a far better description, given the ineptitude of his tenure as Majority Leader.

As for my expectation, my first expectation would be that Reid, et al, actually pause long enough to familiarize themselves with the full extent of applicable law--the saddest irony of all in the Blagojevich scandal is the bevy of legislators lacking even a passing familiarity with applicable statutes.

My second expectation, an evolution of the first, is that any effort to impeach and remove Blagojevich (or any politician) proceed from a rigorous examination of the particulars of the law, rather than bowing to shifting political winds.

Blagojevich's appointment of Burris, in addition to being a shrewd legal gambit, may also prove to be the most apolitical move in this entire drama.


Yeah, Reid's almost as big an asshole as the Republicans who impeached Clinton for purely political reasons, with no real due cause.

In regard to the "familiarity with applicable statutes", I tend to agree with your interpretation. However, "interpretation" is the key word here. Remember when the G.W.Bush team used the "equal protection" statute to prevent the Florida recount? Any rational interpretation of the statute would have laughed it off, but their far-fetched twisting of logic was accepted by the 5 right-leaning Supreme Court justices. So anything can happen when it comes to legal word parsing and logic twisting.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 10:03:00 AM)

quote:

Remember when the G.W.Bush team used the "equal protection" statute to prevent the Florida recount? Any rational interpretation of the statute would have laughed it off, but their far-fetched twisting of logic was accepted by the 5 right-leaning Supreme Court justices. So anything can happen when it comes to legal word parsing and logic twisting.

I do remember. What many overlook is that Gore's recount methodology was to recount ONLY those precincts deemed most favorable to him, without regard to all other precincts in the state of Florida; Bush argued (successfully) that electoral standards were a state affair, and that recounts had to be statewide or not at all. What many also overlook is that Gore, not Bush, was the one who tossed the election into the court system to begin with. Gore gambled with the courts and lost. (Courts, especially those with a judicially conservative demeanor, are generally reluctant to involve themselves in electoral disputes--the potential for bad law makes it not worth the effort)

When you pause to read the petitions of both Gore and Bush, and the court rulings at both the state and federal level, the final ruling of the Supreme Court is not a stretch by any means. In many respects, it was the only decision the Supreme Court could render, given the totality of law, fact, and circumstance (which is why Rehnquist explicitly exempted the decision from the doctrine of stare decisis, stating that the case was to set no precedent for the future).

Ironically, had Gore pursued the statewide recount, he likely would have prevailed in Florida and thus won the Presidency. Gore lost his nerve, and lost the Presidency as a result.

In Illinois now, as in Florida then, were the letter of the law given the weight it deserves, Blagojevich would have been neutered long before he dropped this bombshell in everyone's lap. Instead of pontificating endlessly about how Blagojevich should simply "step down" because it is what is good for the people, the good folk in Springfield should have attended to their own duties to those same people. Legislators have the power and the duty to pass law, and it is by law that Blagojevich has the powers he has. Legislators have the power and the duty to impeach errant executives, which arguably describes Blagojevich since at least his 2006 re-election campaign. The Legislature has steadfastly declined to rein him in; as they have scorned their capacity to act, it does not surprise that Blagojevich similarly scorns that capacity.

As has been mis-attributed to Edmund Burke, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Whether the Illinois Legislature is comprised of "good men" is debatable at this juncture, but that they have done nothing is beyond dispute; for their failure to act, their consequence is to suffer a triumphant (for now, at least) Blagojevich.




hardbodysub -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 10:54:26 AM)

I didn't forget any of that, including the Gore petition. But, yes, the Republican argument was an extreme stretch, bordering on the ridiculous. It was only the political leanings of 5 Supreme Court justices that resulted in an absurd decision. If they believed that recounting only the challenged precincts was "unequal protection", they should have ordered all precincts recounted. The fact that they ignored was that a lot of people were denied "equal protection" because their votes were unfairly discarded. That was a much more important "equal protection" issue than the bogus one the Republicans manufactured.




BamaD -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 11:05:20 AM)

I find it amusing that the people outraged by the Supreme Court decision conveniantly forget that 3 of the four justices were appointed by Clinton, one of whom was virgurosly campaigned for by Gore.  By the standard given of which Republican appointed justices should have steped asside and not ruled there would have been only 3 justices left and the vote would have been 2-1 Bush.

They were ruling on whether the Gore requisted recount was constitutional.  If Gore had requisted another total recount he would have gotten it but that wouldn't have helped him.

Keep in mind that of all the organizations who went down there to "prove" that Gore won the only one that eneded up with him winning gave him among other things ALL of the Libertarian vote because "Libertairian looks like Lieberman and that must be who they thought they were voting for"




Emperor1956 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 11:24:28 AM)

Of course Blago promised the citizens of Illinois that he would NOT make any appointment just a few weeks ago.

WHAT?  Rod Blagojevich LIED?  Whoda thunk it?

AND who plays Roland Burris in the movie?  I say lets go for nontraditional casting and cast Halle Berry!  Then the sex scene where Burris sucks Rod off to get the spurious nomination will at least be interesting to watch!

E.




bluesgun -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 6:32:42 PM)

Great post , being in a neighbor state I am following this a bit.
Great researching celtic , kudos.

best wishes
Blues




Lorr47 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 8:24:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

The senate DOES have the power not to seat Burris.

That is essential question.  Harry Reid's interpretation of Article I §5 holds the Senate does not have to seat anyone they do not want amongst them.  Powell v. McCormack applies a much more circumscribed interpretation of that section, limiting the exclusionary power solely to the substance of an individual's Constitutional qualifications for office.



Is Burris Constitutionally qualified?  On the face of the matter, he is:  he is of age, has appropriate residency, and is not barred from elective office as a result of conviction or other criminal matter.  Moreover, despite Blagojevich's arrest, there is as yet no indication of any corrupt or criminal pact involved in the Burris appointment--and that while some may argue that Blagojevich attempted to "sell" the appointment for personal gain earlier, his ongoing capacity as governor undercuts any argument of "taint" attaching to any subsequent appointment he might make. 

Burris' appointment is not, so far as the law is concerned, tainted by Blagojevich's other legal issues--if that were so, the Illinois Supreme Court would have been required to declare him incapacitated and transfer his statutory powers to the Lieutenant Governor.  The Supreme Court's refusal when so petitioned by Attorney General Lisa Madigan validates Blagojevich's power and peroragative to appoint Burris.

This might drag out for a time, but Reid's certainty that Burris will not be seated seems most unwarranted.



Burris was on the Lehrer Report tonight.  He sounded like he had read CL's materials.  Burris is going to become a real thorn in everyone's side.  I bet he is seated.




DarkSteven -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/2/2009 9:17:17 PM)

CelticLord, you've explained what's going on from a legal POV.  But could anyone explain WHY this is an issue?

Blagojevich has absolutely no choice but to act like he is the governor and is carrying out the governor's duties.  Appointing Burriss is one of those duties.  Anything less is an admission of guilt and telegraphs to his enemies that he will roll over without a fight.

The obvious response is for Reid to state that under the circumstances, Burriss is welcome into the Senate but will be impeached should any evidence come up that implicates him in any bribery.

Instead of that, Reid is picking a fight that he may well lose.  I don't know if Burriss will file a discrimination claim against the Senate, but he certainly has the possibility of doing some real damage.  I can see a downside to Reid's pugnacity, but no upside.  So I'm confused.

I just don't know why Reid is doing what he's doing.




DarkSteven -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 1:24:11 AM)

Okay, it looks like Obama stepped in behind the scenes and told Reid to quit being an idiot.  Burris should be getting his seat soon.

Hopefully Reid will decide to be interested in assisting to run the country now.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 6:14:40 AM)

quote:

Okay, it looks like Obama stepped in behind the scenes and told Reid to quit being an idiot. Burris should be getting his seat soon.

More like Dear Leader huddled with Reid and told him "we just got schooled."

Dear Leader was foursquare in Reid's camp/back pocket initially.  Let us not forget his initial statement on Burris:

quote:

Roland Burris is a good man and a fine public servant, but the Senate Democrats made it clear weeks ago that they cannot accept an appointment made by a governor who is accused of selling this very Senate seat. I agree with their decision, and it is extremely disappointing that Governor Blagojevich has chosen to ignore it. I believe the best resolution would be for the Governor to resign his office and allow a lawful and appropriate process of succession to take place. While Governor Blagojevich is entitled to his day in court, the people of Illinois are entitled to a functioning government and major decisions free of taint and controversy.


The best the Democrats had to offer got smoked by Illinois' next jailhouse lawyer and a political has-been.

Guess there really is one person from Chicago who can't play poker.  Pity America decided to make him President.




MichiganHeadmast -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 6:30:11 AM)

Well, what I find most ironic, is how Rolando Cruz has suddenly become a non-entity.  Did that whole controversy suddenly become irrelevant?




celticlord2112 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 6:51:18 AM)

quote:

Did that whole controversy suddenly become irrelevant?

As regards Burris' qualifications to be Senator, it has always been irrelevant.  Burris was never accused of any wrongdoing or misconduct, nor did he receive any judicial sanction for his role in that fiasco.

Whether Burris' actions warranted sanction is a completely different issue.




xxblushesxx -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 7:01:20 AM)

This is really a huge mess.
The appointment should be put on hold until Blago is either indicted or acquited.




lusciouslips19 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 7:18:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

This is really a huge mess.
The appointment should be put on hold until Blago is either indicted or acquited.



I think the people of Illinois deserve representation in the senate. We should not have to wait while there is a trial. That makes no sense.




lusciouslips19 -> RE: Illinois Irony (1/8/2009 7:20:58 AM)

quote:

Guess there really is one person from Chicago who can't play poker.  Pity America decided to make him President.



Obama was elected by a majority of the people for many qualifications that the majority saw
in him. None of them was because he could bullshit. Thats what paying poker is. Knowing how to bluff and bullshit.

I'm glad our President DOESN'T play poker.




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