RE: Order and Liberty (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 1:05:48 PM)

I'm sorry CL - but although I see that this is nature at work, I am very uncomfortable to yield to such crude mechanisms and motivated to resist them - after all, one day I shall be weak.

To abandon the aspirations of our godly natures in hopeless surrender to the animal renders us less than human, and the concious discarding thereof renders us less than animals.

E



Lorr47 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 1:59:12 PM)

quote:

And when the strong fail and falter, they will become weak and thus similarly will be interred, again by the strong.


Sorry to have to say,  I agree.  The new strong will inter the old strong.  That does kind of sum it up.  Touche.



celticlord2112 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 3:25:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

And when the strong fail and falter, they will become weak and thus similarly will be interred, again by the strong.


Sorry to have to say,  I agree.  The new strong will inter the old strong.  That does kind of sum it up.  Touche.


You're too kind.

I should also add, I see a certain eloquence in the Beatitudes borne of this inevitability.  One might just as easily say "blessed are the weak, for they are us."



Politesub53 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 3:54:02 PM)

1) Order

2) A consensus where individuals treat each other as they like to be treated would breed liberty. Order being impossed by others eventually breeds violence.



kittinSol -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 4:09:46 PM)

Beware of the tyranny of liberty - especially in America.



slvemike4u -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 5:44:54 PM)

Checks and balances dear Kittin,checks and balances.....



celticlord2112 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/4/2009 6:10:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Beware of the tyranny of liberty - especially in America.

Beware those who argue that freedom is slavery, from whatever nation or despondent corner of the Earth.

Individual liberty isn't the best defense against tyranny.  It's the only defense.  Such is the ineluctable lesson of history.



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 4:36:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) Which of the two is most important in order to maximise a peaceful co-existence?


My belief is that liberty is most important. The reason being, non obstruction of liberty allows for people to reach their full capabilities, capable people, are purposeful people, and purpose leads to contentment.
 
As for order, I believe there is a natural order that would exist, if liberties were being exercised properly.
The problem with order, as it exist today, is that it involves ’one size fits all’ law, thereby, creating an environment of injustice; not to be confused with ’unjust’, which is akin to chaos.
 
Injustice, is the justice that comes about when something needs to be ‘protected’ because it hasn’t been allowed to reach its full potential.

quote:

2) What is the best means of order/organisation to maximise liberty?


Justice. Enabling people to reach, and exercise, their full potential, according to their capabilities, and willingness to achieve; in a responsible manner.
 
Kim



kittinSol -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 4:47:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Such is the ineluctable lesson of history.



It's all very well to make statements like these, but I know of very few people who draw 'lessons from history' in their everyday lives. In fact, my observations have led me to believe that the majority of people don't get anything much from history, beyond vague opinions disguised as facts. History repeats itself... ad infinitum.



kittinSol -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 4:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

As for order, I believe there is a natural order that would exist, if liberties were being exercised properly.



Would you care to elaborate a little :-) ? What is a 'natural order'? How are 'liberties exercised properly', in your opinion?



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 5:42:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What is a 'natural order'?


Natural order is the balance that comes about when people are placed in positions they are best suited for, in light of their abilities, according to a goal.

quote:

How are 'liberties exercised properly', in your opinion?


Liberties are exercised properly, when they have been exercised in a responsable manner.
 
Kim



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 6:28:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The weak inherit the earth because they will be buried in it.....by the strong.



It is my understanding that only the living inherit.
 
Kim 



philosophy -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 8:14:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Natural order is the balance that comes about when people are placed in positions they are best suited for, in light of their abilities, according to a goal.



....from each according to their abilities? Ooooh you communist you.....[:D]



celticlord2112 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 9:10:49 AM)

quote:

Natural order is the balance that comes about when people are placed in positions they are best suited for, in light of their abilities, according to a goal.

There is nothing "natural" about such an order. It is oppression, pure and simple.



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:06:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....from each according to their abilities? Ooooh you communist you.....[:D]


Ouch, Phil; that hurt. [:D]
 
I’m a little too independent to be making such suggestions.
 
My proposal doesn’t stop at one’s abilities. It also includes providing the opportunity for reaching potential capabilities, depending on willingness.
 
Might I add; I no longer hold the saying 'all men are created equal' as truth.
 
Kim



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:09:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Natural order is the balance that comes about when people are placed in positions they are best suited for, in light of their abilities, according to a goal.

There is nothing "natural" about such an order. It is oppression, pure and simple.


Not when the goal is of common interest to the parties, such as in a D/s relationship.
 
Kim 



celticlord2112 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:29:33 AM)

quote:


Not when the goal is of common interest to the parties, such as in a D/s relationship.

Society is not a D/s relationship (except for Socialists, Democrats, and similarly ill-advised folk).



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:31:45 AM)


I’ll suggest a different example; team work.
 
Kim



celticlord2112 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:42:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


I’ll suggest a different example; team work.
 
Kim

Society's not a team either.



cpK69 -> RE: Order and Liberty (1/5/2009 10:46:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


I’ll suggest a different example; team work.
 
Kim

Society's not a team either.


I believe, here in lies the problem.
 
Kim



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