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A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Healthc... - 1/7/2009 3:12:31 AM   
variation30


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The question I am asking is this: do you think that the institution of socialized health care would lead to more strict regulations of our behaviors and personal habits by the government? This is not limited to America, this question applies to all governments who currently or previously claimed responsibility for their citizens' health. Do you think the stripping of individual freedom for a 'societal good' is acceptable?

An article that was recently passed to me by a friend sparked up a bit of a conversation about this topic.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0107/p09s01-coop.html

"Sedalia, Colo. - Imagine a country where the government regularly checks the waistlines of citizens over age 40. Anyone deemed too fat would be required to undergo diet counseling. Those who fail to lose sufficient weight could face further "reeducation" and their communities subject to stiff fines.

Is this some nightmarish dystopia?

No, this is contemporary Japan.

The Japanese government argues that it must regulate citizens' lifestyles because it is paying their health costs. This highlights one of the greatly underappreciated dangers of "universal healthcare." Any government that attempts to guarantee healthcare must also control its costs. The inevitable next step will be to seek to control citizens' health and their behavior. Hence, Americans should beware that if we adopt universal healthcare, we also risk creating a "nanny state on steroids" antithetical to core American principles.

Other countries with universal healthcare are already restricting individual freedoms in the name of controlling health costs. For example, the British government has banned some television ads for eggs on the grounds that they were promoting an unhealthy lifestyle. This is a blatant infringement of egg sellers' rights to advertise their products.

In 2007, New Zealand banned Richie Trezise, a Welsh submarine cable specialist, from entering the country on the grounds that his obesity would "impose significant costs ... on New Zealand's health or special education services." Richie later lost weight and was allowed to immigrate, but his wife had trouble slimming and was kept home. Germany has mounted an aggressive anti-obesity campaign in workplaces and schools to promote dieting and exercise. Citizens who fail to cooperate are branded as "antisocial" for costing the government billions of euros in medical expenses.

Of course healthy diet and exercise are good. But these are issues of personal – not government – responsibility. So long as they don't harm others, adults should have the right to eat and drink what they wish – and the corresponding responsibility to enjoy (or suffer) the consequences of their choices. Anyone who makes poor lifestyle choices should pay the price himself or rely on voluntary charity, not demand that the government pay for his choices.

Government attempts to regulate individual lifestyles are based on the claim that they must limit medical costs that would otherwise be a burden on "society." But this issue can arise only in "universal healthcare" systems where taxpayers must pay for everyone's medical expenses.

Although American healthcare is only under partial government control in the form of programs such as Medicaid and Medicare, American nanny state regulations have exploded in recent years.

Many American cities ban restaurants from selling foods with trans fats. Los Angeles has imposed a moratorium on new fast food restaurants in South L.A. Other California cities ban smoking in some private residences. California has outlawed after-school bake sales as part of a "zero tolerance" ban on selling sugar products on campus. New York Gov. David Paterson has proposed an 18 percent tax on sugary sodas and juice drinks, and state officials have not ruled out additional taxes on cheeseburgers and other foods deemed unhealthy.

These ominous trends will only accelerate if the US adopts universal healthcare.

Just as universal healthcare will further fuel the nanny state, the nanny state mind-set helps fuel the drive toward universal healthcare. Individuals aren't regarded as competent to decide how to manage their lives and their health. So the government provides "cradle to grave" coverage of their healthcare.

Nanny state regulations and universal healthcare thus feed a vicious cycle of increasing government control over individuals. Both undermine individual responsibility and habituate citizens to ever-worsening erosions of their individual rights. Both promote dependence on government. Both undermine the virtues of independence and rationality. Both jeopardize the very foundations of a free society.

The American Founding Fathers who fought and died for our freedoms would be appalled to know their descendants were allowing the government to dictate what they could eat and drink. The Founders correctly understood that the proper role of government is to protect individual rights and otherwise leave men free to live – not tell us how many eggs we should eat.

If we still value our freedoms, we must reject both the nanny state and universal healthcare. Otherwise, it won't be long before the "Waistline Police" come knocking on our doors.

• Paul Hsieh practices medicine in the south Denver metro area and is a cofounder of Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine (FIRM)."


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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 3:36:19 AM   
variation30


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If I were to suggest that socialized health care naturally leads to totalitarianism and an abolishment of individual freedoms, I would most probably be written off as a ultra-conservative right winger...just like Mises (according to some members of the SDS). But if the government mandates that they are the sole provider of health care, does it not follow that they would take certain actions towards ensuring the efficacy of their programs. We see this from the regulations of our public schools and universities to the circus known as airport security. Individuals are too incompetent to educate their own youth and they need to trust in the ubermensch that have brought us marvels such as No Child Left Behind. We are too incompetent to securly run airlines (remember 9/11) and we need to trust the masterminds who have given us the the color coded terror warning system. Ignore the facts that the public school systems in the nation are largely a joke and that the TSA has had numerous scandles involving undercover TSA agents smuggling bombs through TSA security, that after dumping nearly seven billion dollars into the program they still score lower than private security agents, the many claims of theft, sexual harassment, spending on non-security related items and projects, etc. It would probably be wise for us to trust the government when they say that we are too incompetent to keep ourselves healthy and that we must rely upon the benevolence and brilliance of our elected leaders to keep us healthy through "free" health care.

The government has regulated our property to keep "the economy efficient" through things like minimum wage, tariffs on imports, granting natural monopolies, price fixing, etc. Can we not also expect a similarly invasive set of regulations to keep this government project efficient? On the same hand, can we not also expect these regulations to be just as...effective. We've already seen quite a few injuries done to individual liberty in the name of 'protecting the citizens'. The evil dragons of second-hand smoke (the ravages of third hand smoke are coming to a state near you), illicit substances, 20 year-old alcoholics, good, fatty french fries being served in the city of New York, and keeping individuals in pain from easily acquiring medication that would alleviate their misery have all been slain by the shining knights that inhabit our state and federal governments. These restrictive actions are, of course, absurd - as is the professed reason for these actions, our protection. Do I need to be protected from my appreciation of black cavendish or scotch? Of course not. Do I need to be protected from my desire to eat a deep-fried Snickers bar? Of course not. What these...Protectors of the Citizenry fail to understand is that perhaps the risk of losing a few weeks of your last years is worth a tri-weekly helping of ossobuco. Perhaps filling my lungs with Chancellor Tobacco is worth risking my last decade as a senile elder that I would otherwise spend driving my children crazy. Perhaps, and I know this is me being silly or glib, but perhaps my life is my possession. Perhaps my health is my possession. This is, of course, going against ideas that say things such as:

""Brother national socialist, do you know that our Führer is against smoking and thinks that every German is responsible to the whole people for all his deeds and emissions, and does not have the right to damage his body with drugs?""

Now obviously I am not suggesting that people who think that smoking or trans fat should be banned are Nazis, are Hitler, or hate gypsies and homosexuals. What I am illustrating is a similarity in the arguments between these 'social democracies', our own nation, and a nation that is a notorious example of collectivism and totalitarianism gone awry. I'm trying to show the danger inherent in the mentality that we, because of some invisible web of "society", owe our bodies, minds, and will to one another and especially the entity that brings us together - our government. These programs and the mantras that support them may seem harmless enough at a cursory glance. But even these seemingly benevolent actions could very well (and probably will) lead to egregious injuries to individual freedoms. You know about individual freedoms, the things that allow you to do whatever it is that makes you happy: practicing religion, being beaten with a cane while wearing a ring gag, smoking marijuana while listening to Phish, performing Shostakovich, creating and trading vicuna clothing, falling in love with and expressing love to someone of the same sex, starting a mail service, eating foie gras, watching your meerschaum slowly change colors, making pornography, trying to advertise eggs, composing music and creating art that has nothing to do with illustrating how great your nation is, having sex in any position other than the missionary position, starting a brand new railroad to California, drinking whiskey, traveling, ad infinitum. These are some of the things that make we humans happy. What do they have in common? They all have been (or are) illegal. We must ignore the pretty words that are used to back up the regulation of foie gras consumption or art production. We must only look at the results of these actions. If any of the aforementioned regulations do effect you or would have effected you, then I think the result of these regulations should be obvious. If you acknowledge how these...laws would have effected you, then please have the courtesy to not stand in the way of other individuals who wish to partake in the activities they enjoy...even if it is claimed that this is being done for their own good.

The result of these regulations is an encroachment upon an individual's ability to act with his body as he sees fit. These laws and regulations are upheld through violence or the threat of violence. This is, if anything, an act of aggression. I am of the opinion that agressing against another individual is never just. This obviously applies to keeping 15 year olds from hosting bake sales and egg producers from advertising their product, but also applies to a much larger enity that may be overlooked...social health care itself. But that's a conversation for a different time.

< Message edited by variation30 -- 1/7/2009 3:43:47 AM >


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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 3:44:52 AM   
Sanity


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Once the dignity is gone, or the understanding that individuals have a right to self determination then all is lost. If government agents can tackle someone who is about to put a cheese burger to his or her lips what wouldn't be fair game? There would be no end to the madness.


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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 4:06:02 AM   
corysub


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About the only thing that government has not come out for YET is a carbon tax on people carrying those "few extra pounds".  It's just a matter of time, however, since we are already seeing some thinking that there should be a tax on cows whose farting is destroying the planet according to the EPA.

      http://www.nowpublic.com/environment/epa-wants-turn-cows-goats-scapegoats

I've already hidden my guns...is the family dog next?  Someday soon are people going to have to tell their children, "sorry, muffy we can't get a pet dog,
I can't afford the fart tax".   Hey, with trillion dollar deficits government is going to tax even the amount of air we breath!

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 7:11:34 AM   
Termyn8or


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I saw this coming years ago. Brooklyn, Ohio had the very first seatbelt law in the union, they actually beat California to it. Nobody even challenged it.

As someone who has been in a bad car wreck, who would have been crippled or killed by wearing a seat belt I take exception. Yes my head hit the windshield, but I walked away. This was a 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix, and those familiar with US built and most other cars are aware that the seat belts are not attached to the seat. When we hit the proverbial immovable object, the weight of the people in the back seat was thrown into the front seat, moving it forward about a foot.

Insurance costs were cited as a reason for the law, among all the other supposed benefits of wearing seat belts. However it was lobbying by the insurance companies that made it happen.

So really it all boils down to the same thing.

Now what happens when they reverse themselves on transfat for example. Remember the butter/margarine debacle ? Every year it was one or the other that was good for you. What happens if they find that a small amount of transfat is needed in a healthy diet ?

Let's take the other twist, what if they discover, as veterinarians have known for a long time, that many chronic diseases are actually not caused by too much of something or another, but by certain deficiencies. Will we be required then to eat certain foods ? Will we get exemption certificates for taking supplements ?

I said it years ago "They got a very big foot in the door with seatbelt laws", and in that I believed there would be some sort of protests or something, but the sheeple let us down. I belived mistakenly that seatbelt laws would be the fulcrum to get the People together to flex their muscle and get rid of the law.

California's motorcycle helmet law is a perfect example. One guy actually killed himself over it, but they don't mind that, insurance does not pay for suicides. Personally if I wipeout at 80MPH on a motorcycle, I would probably be better off dead, but then that would not support the medical industry, which would collect millions for a patient with half of his skin scraped off and a quadrapalegic.

And of course the Termy slant now. The ogliarchs love disabled people. Living on public assistance they have a vested interest in voting for the nanny government. Dead people do not vote.

If you ever thought they gave a rat's ass about us, think again.

Just one of the reasons I do not have, nor ever wanted kids, we simply can't deliver a world fit for human habitation.

If you want more on how the drug, insurance and medical industries work together, just ask. It is bad enough now, but right now it is only an end to a mean. Think of what it will be like in 10 or 20 years. I'll warn you now, if I tell you what I know about how these greedy people work  together, if pregnant you might just have an abortion, no matter how much you are against it. I am not talking about my conclusions or opinions, just facts. Facts that are not hard to find, but when taken together paint a very grim picture for the future of any personal liberty.

One of the founding Fathers of the US said we need a revolution about every twenty years. We are about 120 revolutions behind.

T

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 7:13:17 AM   
MichiganHeadmast


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Socialist anything leads to totalitarianism.

And folks beg for it.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 7:44:34 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Do you ever post anything here about, you know, BDSM--or is it always pamphlet-grade laissez-faire economics?  Cuz I can get that from the Larouche wackos on the street.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 7:48:46 AM   
MichiganHeadmast


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Do you ever post anything here about, you know, BDSM--or is it always pamphlet-grade laissez-faire economics?  Cuz I can get that from the Larouche wackos on the street.


Um, if it's about BDSM, then it wouldn't be "Off Topic," would it?

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 9:03:26 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Everything variation writes is "Off Topic."  Makes me wonder whether the main purpose of Collarme has any interest for him.  The site says "Collarme: The Largest BDSM Community on the Planet"--not "Collarme: Post your derivative laissez-faire economics views here!"

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 1:00:57 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Everything variation writes is "Off Topic."

So what? That is his right, so long as he stays within the parameters of the ToS.

If you have a cogent rebuttal to his posts, make it.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 1:55:04 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

About the only thing that government has not come out for YET is a carbon tax on people carrying those "few extra pounds".  It's just a matter of time, however, since we are already seeing some thinking that there should be a tax on cows whose farting is destroying the planet according to the EPA.

     http://www.nowpublic.com/environment/epa-wants-turn-cows-goats-scapegoats

I've already hidden my guns...is the family dog next?  Someday soon are people going to have to tell their children, "sorry, muffy we can't get a pet dog,
I can't afford the fart tax".   Hey, with trillion dollar deficits government is going to tax even the amount of air we breath!


if animals are destroying our environment, then why not hunt down and massacre wild animals? why must we tax animals who are people' property?

but let's be honest, the whole global warming thing is more than a little ridiculous to begin with so you can't be surprised when they come up with ridiculous ploys in response to it.


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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 2:06:43 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Do you ever post anything here about, you know, BDSM--or is it always pamphlet-grade laissez-faire economics?  Cuz I can get that from the Larouche wackos on the street.


someone sounds a little bitter.


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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 6:28:05 PM   
Termyn8or


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Perspective here people, LaM, etc. This and random are the most trafficked here and it is probably because you have one subject vs ALL other subjects.

There is only so much on BDSM you can talk about, it is one subject.

If your SO asked what you would like for lunch, would you ask "What has that to do with BDSM ?" ? .

AND, before hooking up with anyone, I would want to know if we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum, I don't need a relationship turning into a constant debate.

Anyone who thinks of sex 100 % of the time has a problem. This is off topic, maybe they should rename it "everything else", and rename polls to "anything else that is too stupid for everything else".

One thing is for sure, in off topic we prove that we are all posessed of opinoins, and attitudes, and .......... justlike anyone else.

T

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 6:51:43 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Socialized egg commercials are a damn good Idea. Full speed ahead!

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/7/2009 7:13:38 PM   
Termyn8or


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Wouldn't a socialized egg be an omelet ?

T

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/8/2009 6:16:12 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Yeah, no kidding, it's his right.  I'm asking whether he ever writes anything about BDSM and whether the main purpose of Collarme has any interest for him.  That's MY right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Everything variation writes is "Off Topic."

So what? That is his right, so long as he stays within the parameters of the ToS.

If you have a cogent rebuttal to his posts, make it.

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RE: A Government Ban on Egg Commercials: Socialized Hea... - 1/8/2009 7:59:24 AM   
Marc2b


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New York State is now considering a tax on sugary soft drinks in order to “combat obesity.”

Sigh.



“Liberal bigots are the ones who trouble me most. I distrust the extremes. Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It's true! Liberal governments always develop into aristocracies. The bureaucracies betray the true intent of people who form such governments. Right from the first the little people who formed the governments which promised to equalize the social burdens found themselves suddenly in the hands of bureaucratic aristocracies. Of course, all bureaucracies follow this pattern, but what a hypocrisy to find this even under a communized banner. Ahhh, well, if patterns teach me anything it's that patterns are repeated.”

- Frank Herbert




“The enthusiastic, to those who are not, are always something of a trial.”
- Alban Goodier


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