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Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 7:57:21 AM

BoiJen

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It's not really about the FemDoms is it? It's about het Female lead space. I get that...

I respect that greatly.

My issue is this...and only this...so please don't take it as an attack (to the Women who attend Club-Fem events and run them)...

The only explaination for this policy that I've come across is that there is fear that the men folk might get confused. And given that FemDoms don't often fetch things especially in the precense of other FemDoms(even if they are running the show...hello! cruise directors!) or wear collars or leashes and never have I seen a FemDom (even in a vanilla situation) volunteer to sit on the floor! (lol), I don't think that the argument holds grounds unless the FemDoms attending these events choose males who are completely oblivious and all consumed with the idea that every female is a Domme. Which that I also doubt. (You Ladies are too smart to fall for guys like that.)

Now, given I haven't spoken directly with many women who organize these events, I'm wondering why it can't simply be stated that it's a het atmosphere and you don't want to share. It's cool like that. Or is it that the men folk are threatened by females who serve Females? Just tossing around ideas not based on anything other than a lack of knowledge around the mind-set of a group. (Trying to get info here)

I mean I know it's not politically correct but honestly most FemDoms aren't politically correct...they're polite to a T when need be and always charming...but politically correct only comes around to suite them :) It's part of why we love you all so much!

So I'm waiting for a clue to drop in my lap when you Ladies have the time. Thanks!

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 1/7/2009 7:58:03 AM >

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 8:20:08 AM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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Club FEM was formed in Houston in the 90s. At the time, the scene leaned heavily towards Mf and some Fm enthusiasts formed Club FEM. I would not call it het as much as Fm. There may be women there who are bisexual or, if they have an interest to attend such an event, even gay. There may be switches of either gender. However, at Club FEM events, women are in dominant space and men are in submissive space.

The reason that was given to you--that men would get confused--is a new one for me; I have not heard it before. As best I know, the reason is simply to create an environment of female authority and male submission with those who wish to enjoy this environment, and that there was no other organization that offered this environment. At the time, there were groups that were women only, or that were Ff. If I recall correctly, the founders felt that pansexual events were not friendly to Fm expression, and that there were other avenues for those who wished to express their Mf or Ff dynamic. The sentiment behind this effort is similar to the sentiment behind a party that is Ff and male submissives are not allowed even if in service to a domme in attendance.

This information is what I have learned with my participation with the original chapter and founders. I expect that the information disseminated or policies held (het only if such a policy exists) by satellite chapters are influenced by philosophies of those who lead these chapters.

I am curious where you heard the reason that men would become confused. I wonder if it is a case of someone not understanding the spirit of the rule and saying what they thought might be the reason. If you recall where you heard it, I will pass it on to the original chapter.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/7/2009 8:37:16 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 8:36:39 AM

LadyPact

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Good Morning, jen. My regards to MsK.

I think you already know the answer as to why it can't simply be stated. The minute someone does, it opens the door for a legal problem for the organizers. Yes, even in our wonderful, supposed circle of not exposing anyone to issues that can come from our activities, the minute you exclude someone based on gender, there's going to be someone with the hot idea of starting a lawsuit.

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 9:12:12 AM

BoiJen

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Morning Lady Pact! (I always pass along your regards :)

With private organizations the rules aren't the same. Like the standard rodeo for example. Women are not allowed to participate expcet in very few and specific events. Which is why the gay rodeo became so popular...women could do everything including bullriding-pun intended (which the official organization for the regualr rodeo says it will never allow).

I would argue that the group is het oriented...as where else do you find Fm situations. And given that the requirement there is to the exclusion of all other pairings, I would say it points directly toward that end. I've not been to Texas (whereas MsK has) so I don't know much about the community there, but overall Ff groups are extremely limited. Whereas, Mf groups and Mm groups are the most common (with Mf groups leading) and Fm groups are growing rapidly now...I don't know so much about then.

I wonder if there's room for greating a group that is Fsoag (s-types of any gender) that would be inclusive of ClubFem-type members? My understanding also is that the m is strictly to male and male parts only...masculine identified females and male identified females wouldn't nessicarily be welcome at a ClubFem event...I could be wrong.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 4

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 9:50:49 AM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I would argue that the group is het oriented...as where else do you find Fm situations. And given that the requirement there is to the exclusion of all other pairings, I would say it points directly toward that end. I've not been to Texas (whereas MsK has) so I don't know much about the community there, but overall Ff groups are extremely limited. Whereas, Mf groups and Mm groups are the most common (with Mf groups leading) and Fm groups are growing rapidly now...I don't know so much about then.

I wonder if there's room for greating a group that is Fsoag (s-types of any gender) that would be inclusive of ClubFem-type members? My understanding also is that the m is strictly to male and male parts only...masculine identified females and male identified females wouldn't nessicarily be welcome at a ClubFem event...I could be wrong.

You are correct if we attach the het descriptor to the behavior at the party versus general orientation. The point I wished to convey was that persons who are bisexual or homosexual can attend if they wish to participate in the Fm power structure created at the parties. Part of this structure comes from a desire to create an environment of female authority over men (like what you might see at OWK). Incidentally, FEM is an acronym that stands for females enslaving males.

In Austin, we do not have an Fm group but have had a group for women only for at least 11 years. I consider any BDSM group that is for women only or for lesbians to be Ff unless it is a discussion group of women with the same role preference. In Houston, at least at the time I became involved with Club FEM, there was a group that was primarily Ff (female dominants and submissives were open to attend but male subs could attend only if kept on a leash by a woman). I think there were other women's groups yet. Some of the events and dungeons I have attended across Texas, NYC (TES Fest), and Seattle have had women only and men only events (private and official). Per my experience, the point that there were other avenues for those who wished for a Ff environment but none for those who wished for an Fm environment had and has basis.

While the ratio of Mf at pansexual events is still greater, I do not see pansexual events to be Mf. I appreciate the Austin scene even if it does not have an Fm group at present.

I think there is room for a group or event that is Fsoag ( ;-) ). I have attended some such events (tea parties) and they have gone well. I would see this group to be in addition to rather than in place of Club FEM. I am unsure whether there would be any issues. If any female subs used the general environment of female authority selectively and unfairly, some male subs might enjoy it while some might resent it. The same could be said if any male subs assumed an attitude of superiority over female subs, however, given the dynamics and preferences I think the former is more likely to occur.

You raise a good point about transgender issues. I am not sure if that issue has been approached and what the response would be. In my opinion, the BDSM community at large is in its infancy with respect to awareness about TG issues.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 1/7/2009 10:32:11 AM >

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 5

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 2:10:17 PM

beeble

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
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quote:

LadyPact wrote:
I think you already know the answer as to why it can't simply be stated. The minute someone does, it opens the door for a legal problem for the organizers. Yes, even in our wonderful, supposed circle of not exposing anyone to issues that can come from our activities, the minute you exclude someone based on gender, there's going to be someone with the hot idea of starting a lawsuit.

Though, of course, such a lawsuit would sink like a stone, since a private members' club can have whatever membership rules it wants. Not that that would necessarily stop anyone trying to sue, which would be a massive hassle for everyone concerned.

beeble.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 6

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 2:11:59 PM

beeble

Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
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quote:

BoiJen wrote:
My issue is this...and only this...so please don't take it as an attack (to the Women who attend Club-Fem events and run them)...

The only explaination for this policy that I've come across [...]

There seems to be a paragraph missing here, where you explain what your issue is! I'm assuming it's that Ff couples aren't welcome but it would be good to have that clarified.

beeble.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 7

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 3:04:27 PM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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~FR~

The one big rule about Club FEM is that females NEVER serve! Sub women are welcome to attend, but not in a submissive role. Such are the RULES of the group founders. Personally, I was not happy about that rule, and in the five years I had a CF chapter, I wished it could be otherwise, and just be a general femdom party. Think of all the couples that I couldn't invite! So yes, it is indeed het oriented... though it doesn't come out and SAY so.

edited to add:

The organizers of CF are very relaxed about how the various groups are run. We were free to fit our own demographic. In MY world, a if you dress like a woman, live like a woman, identify as a woman, YOU ARE A WOMAN. The same for the men. Why would I exclude someone transgendered? We had MtF and FtM at various parties and there was no problem with it. I know that the lady who runs the west Florida group would be dead against my choices.

As long as you don't call yourself "Club FEM"--which stands for Females Enslaving Males, after all---why shouldn't you start a group with the features you want?

< Message edited by LadyHibiscus -- 1/7/2009 3:09:08 PM >

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 4:15:51 PM

BoiJen

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Not in order of importance....

UGS (heh..I like that really so not tryna step on a toe there)....I think society in general and large majority of groups are in their infancy when it comes to trans issues. AND to the outside eye, masculine identified females are transgendered individuals...but we're not. I personally only want the body-change suit once week a month and otherwise on demand when dirty stuff pops into my head. If I was male I'd likely feel about the same. I don't want to be bound to just this image of myself. I'm also by no means femme. Where as trans individuals actually feel that their bodies are incorrect. Make sense?

Beeble...the issues was the piss poor reason fr the exclusion of Ff pairs that I was originally given.

LadyH *!* that's funny the way you put it. I for one (not speaking for all) wouldn't be comfortable sitting by just cuz my body change suit is hanging up to dry (see above). I don't imagine that a s-type male would feel comfortable at a Mf group with women serving and him not doing anything. That's not really a "welcoming" environment. It may be polite but I wouldn't assume welcoming. And finally, I'll bring it around to the masculine identified females (not trans)....are they allowed to be there and serve? And another thing...are their sissy males serving as sissy males at these events?

And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I'm interested in attending where I'm not welcome or invited (just ask Slave Kal...we had that talk too) besides MsK ain't interested in attending where She can't have the individual of Her choice (given their concent, availability, and ability) serve Her. I'm not imagining any personal conflict here, just trnya get to the root of it.

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Post #: 9

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/7/2009 4:27:20 PM

MmeGigs

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Posted a "never mind" thing...

Never mind.

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 1/7/2009 4:28:20 PM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/8/2009 6:18:14 PM

MzShngStar

Posts: 10
Joined: 8/8/2004
Status: offline

Hello All,
I have attended Club Fem parties and enjoyed them very much. But , when I decided to start a group in the Dallas area I chose not to start a Club Fem chapter because I wanted something different. So, we chose to start a group of FemDommes that welcomed both male/female s types. No male Dominants were allowed to attend unless they wanted to switch and serve that night.There are groups for everyone and everyone for groups, just find the one that fits and have fun !!

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/9/2009 8:05:12 PM

AcademyForSlaves

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Joined: 2/24/2006
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I know some of those people who have those events and some have fem subs now because 1-They found the fem subs to be less selfish and not so much into a fetish and they don't top from the bottom as much like the sub males do, and 2-Some of these events, clubs, orgs, parties etc now have fem subs because the Mistress got into a relationship with a male dom or switch and he changed the femdom events to now include fem subs too because that's what he's into.

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/9/2009 9:41:41 PM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

*grin*

I wonder if you tried to attend a Club Fem event as I did... and found out that female dominants, with boiz (female butch boi) were not welcome... I was a bit insulted.. but it made me laugh.. figured I wasn't interest in their little club anyway.. funny thing is, if the men knew one of the female dominants rejected me, they might object as I adore and play with plenty of men...so there was one less female dominant

< Message edited by Madame4a -- 1/9/2009 9:44:20 PM >

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/9/2009 10:29:14 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I wonder if there's room for creating a group that is Fsoag (s-types of any gender) that would be inclusive of ClubFem-type members? My understanding also is that the m is strictly to male and male parts only...masculine identified females and male identified females wouldn't nessicarily be welcome at a ClubFem event...I could be wrong.

Sad as it is, my very first thought to your first question (above) it that "Oh, but that would confuse the submissive men." (not in general but the "inclusive of ClubFem type members part.) I understand if you haven't had a whole lot of interaction with submissive men of the Club-Fem members variety, but from what I've encountered it is not at all uncommon for those that enjoy a Club-FEM type atmosphere to be female supremacists (or as I like to think of them "willing to submit to anything with a vagina") So in fact, insulting as this may sound, the presence of a female bodied but not female gendered person may indeed confuse the men. Now, I'm open minded and I know not all submissive men are that ignorant, but some are, and given some of the crap I've been told by the ones into female supremacy, I actually feel that's a valid excuse. Should they welcome any one who wants to serve a female with open arms? In my opinion, yes, but that doesn't mean you would really enjoy that atmosphere either.

I also think you're correct that masculine or male identified females would not be welcomed at Club-FEM events. I sort of look at it this way...you know what you're getting into when you walk in the door (or hell, read the website for that matter.) I am genderqueer and a Daddy in my primary relationship so to say I'm a masculine identified female is pretty accurate. But if I want to attend a Club-FEM event, I know that my normal look (jeans, corcoran boots, a wife beater, and sometimes a leather vest) is not going to impress anyone. I'd feel out of place without heels and a corset but since I don't feel like me in those clothes, I just opt not to attend events that would expect me to adhere to that image. I tried the Fem-dom scene when I was first coming out but very quickly found a lot more in common with gay Leathermen, Leatherdykes, FtMs/MtFs, genderqueer, and transfolk of all types. So I don't feel like I'm being excluded from any huge party because it's just not my style anyway.

I do think however, that a female dominant space open to soag like you said would be really cool. My point is that you probably wouldn't get a lot of the hardcore fem-dom, female supremacists, what-I-imagine-to-be-Club-Fem's-primary-demographic-types in attendance.

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/10/2009 8:24:48 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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As I said, every Club FEM has its own demographic... there are some chapters that I would NEVER attend! But then, silly me allowing those genderqueer folks in! And telling the doms that they could show up in sweatpants if that was how they felt that day! And telling the single men that they could be dressed if they wanted to! Sheeesh! There are female supremacist types who would never have stayed at one of my parties!

Dominasmartass reminded me of the ONE time I had a "problem"~~with a CD from Ontario who dressed fabulously well. There was some question about just how male he was... which struck me as odd, with crossdressing such a common fetish! So, maybe some of those men are just confused after all!

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RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/10/2009 8:33:54 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

As I said, every Club FEM has its own demographic... there are some chapters that I would NEVER attend! But then, silly me allowing those genderqueer folks in! And telling the doms that they could show up in sweatpants if that was how they felt that day! And telling the single men that they could be dressed if they wanted to! Sheeesh! There are female supremacist types who would never have stayed at one of my parties!

That's very cool that you were open and laid back about your group. I probably would have enjoyed it more than any of the other "Fem Domme" spaces I've experienced over the years.

quote:

Dominasmartass reminded me of the ONE time I had a "problem"~~with a CD from Ontario who dressed fabulously well. There was some question about just how male he was... which struck me as odd, with crossdressing such a common fetish! So, maybe some of those men are just confused after all!

I'm semi-confused...you mean a submissive male cross dresser was getting the other submissive men confused because he didn't seem completely male? i.e. they were mistaking him for female and wanting to submit to him?

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Post #: 16

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/10/2009 8:38:24 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

As I said, every Club FEM has its own demographic... there are some chapters that I would NEVER attend! But then, silly me allowing those genderqueer folks in! And telling the doms that they could show up in sweatpants if that was how they felt that day! And telling the single men that they could be dressed if they wanted to! Sheeesh! There are female supremacist types who would never have stayed at one of my parties!

That's very cool that you were open and laid back about your group. I probably would have enjoyed it more than any of the other "Fem Domme" spaces I've experienced over the years.

quote:

Dominasmartass reminded me of the ONE time I had a "problem"~~with a CD from Ontario who dressed fabulously well. There was some question about just how male he was... which struck me as odd, with crossdressing such a common fetish! So, maybe some of those men are just confused after all!

I'm semi-confused...you mean a submissive male cross dresser was getting the other submissive men confused because he didn't seem completely male? i.e. they were mistaking him for female and wanting to submit to him?

I do not know WHAT the problem was. He was too pretty? They thought he was a threat to them? Only the enormousness of that man's ego was a problem. He could suck alllll the air out of a room!

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Post #: 17

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/10/2009 8:43:31 AM

Celene

Posts: 158
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

As I said, every Club FEM has its own demographic... there are some chapters that I would NEVER attend! But then, silly me allowing those genderqueer folks in! And telling the doms that they could show up in sweatpants if that was how they felt that day! And telling the single men that they could be dressed if they wanted to! Sheeesh! There are female supremacist types who would never have stayed at one of my parties!

Dominasmartass reminded me of the ONE time I had a "problem"~~with a CD from Ontario who dressed fabulously well. There was some question about just how male he was... which struck me as odd, with crossdressing such a common fetish! So, maybe some of those men are just confused after all!

Yay! Sounds to me like you know how to have fun. I know the feeling of some places I never want to return to. Yours I'd definitely like to visit. Keep allowing people to have fun.

I have to say that two of my favorite (simplicity is - or should be - a virtue) "toys" are the MCD (oh yeah, it's a "novelty" and useful far beyond it's intended purpose) and the feeldoe (more of a tool :)
Forgive the shameless plug, but the spike strip as I call it is what drew my eye to this thread and the only reason I know the name Club FEM.

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Post #: 18

RE: Club-Fem? (meant to be light hearted but serious) - 1/10/2009 8:45:11 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

I do know how to have fun! It was cool having the group while it lasted.

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Post #: 19

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