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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 5:42:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Well, with all due respect, an "activist Government" does follow the traditional Keynesian response to a LARGE economic downturn. Although Obama's response may be a bit overwhelming it is not without precedent, and is prescribed by a number of economic analysts. I am not sure that the 600,000 jobs thing might not be an over statement it might very well come to that. To sit and do nothing is not an option when you see the growing unemployment and a general malaise in almost all business activity.Not all the ills can be cured by government as we have discussed before but, to watch as the populace becomes more and more reticent to spend, and the unemployment grows is no time for inactivity. The government cannot be the cure all but, can indeed prompt action by others. I do not think that another round of stimulus checks is the answer, nor do we need more corporate bailouts but, the people in the trenches that work for a living need help, less taxes, an opportunity to support themselves and their families and this is how the present administration hopes to remedy the sick economy.
Owner is correct that the previous administration has left this huge mess and it is Obama's to fix but, without a crystal ball we are all just guessing to a degree. It is his to actually come up with something to help spur the economy back into some growth. I hope with all of my heart his cure fits the illness!

True, the fact that Paulson and Company have twisted the banks arms to get them to renegotiate mortgages and solidfy their value rather than buying mortgages outright reflects in large part the fact that that the personnel with the experience to sort out these complicated transactions on the taxpayers behalf simply don't exist - the entire regulatory arm of the government has been gutted - we've lots of new homeland security staff and border guards, but few people who understand the complexities of modern economics - our glorious leader expounding the depth of his grasp on economics:

“There’s no question about it. Wall Street got drunk — that’s one of the reasons I asked you to turn off the TV cameras — it got drunk and now it’s got a hangover. The question is how long will it sober up and not try to do all these fancy financial instruments.”
– George W. Bush, speaking at a private fundraiser, Houston, Texas, July 18, 2008

Other people do his thinking for him, he's busy.





the re-negotiates, are mute.  they throw in all types of fees and end up costing the same amount of money.

in a matter of time, there can only be civil unrest.    1776, for this 'treasonist take over

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 6:22:37 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, they tried to run it.

They failed .......and it closed............ Now, we are trusting the economy of our country and $850 Billion Dollars to a pack of nit-wits who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze.

Now if that don't make you nervous, what does???


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 8:56:54 AM   
Amaros


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Joined: 7/25/2005
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Go back and read the link, they aren't running it, they don't have the personnel, they've invested in these banks, and there are strings attached to those investments.

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 8:59:48 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

the re-negotiates, are mute.  they throw in all types of fees and end up costing the same amount of money.

in a matter of time, there can only be civil unrest.    1776, for this 'treasonist take over

Moot? They aren't in business to lose money, this should never be far from you mind at any time, when dealing with the American financial sector - due diligence is your responsibility at all times - caveat emptor.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 10:06:19 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

the 700 bln $ bail out was the point of no return.  our fate is sealed.    not so much that they approved it- but did so with NO oversight.

the money is illegal as the constitution says only congress can coin money and it must be silver and gold.   so fake money renders the debts as fake.

1. a stroke of the pen by the prez could null the derivatives.... which JP morgan has over 100 trl of.

2.  the govt could suspend mandates that they passed down to the states and counties.  the states and counties could follow suit.

3. we could re-continue Kennedys order 11110, which began to issue silver - not the fed res.

4. we could have a 2 tier % rate.

5. we could shoot the men who swindled us before they flea to non-extradition countries.



I kind of like #5 phb, but it presents difficulties similar to those of the following tale.

A preacher in a small rural town has raised funds to build a new church. Construction begins and as he stands over the pit of the beginning foundational excavations he is dreaming of all the souls he's gonna save. Picturing a bigger place for himself up in heaven cuz surely saving more souls will entitle him to that.

As he muses a young country boy comes into town and wanders past the hole. He approaches the preacher and asks "Hey preacher what'er y'all gonna put in that there hole?"

The preacher replies saying "Well, we're gonna take all the folks around these parts doing bad things, and all the folks commitin sin, and we're gonna put 'em in that hole, and we're gonna bury 'em."

Country boy says "Well, er, uh, who's gonna be around here to cover it up?"

Uncle Nasty (yeah, I can pray on my feet, and wax southern baptist with the best of them)

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 12:19:32 PM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Well, with all due respect, an "activist Government" does follow the traditional Keynesian response to a LARGE economic downturn. Although Obama's response may be a bit overwhelming it is not without precedent, and is prescribed by a number of economic analysts. I am not sure that the 600,000 jobs thing might not be an over statement it might very well come to that. To sit and do nothing is not an option when you see the growing unemployment and a general malaise in almost all business activity.Not all the ills can be cured by government as we have discussed before but, to watch as the populace becomes more and more reticent to spend, and the unemployment grows is no time for inactivity. The government cannot be the cure all but, can indeed prompt action by others. I do not think that another round of stimulus checks is the answer, nor do we need more corporate bailouts but, the people in the trenches that work for a living need help, less taxes, an opportunity to support themselves and their families and this is how the present administration hopes to remedy the sick economy.
Owner is correct that the previous administration has left this huge mess and it is Obama's to fix but, without a crystal ball we are all just guessing to a degree. It is his to actually come up with something to help spur the economy back into some growth. I hope with all of my heart his cure fits the illness!

True, the fact that Paulson and Company have twisted the banks arms to get them to renegotiate mortgages and solidfy their value rather than buying mortgages outright reflects in large part the fact that that the personnel with the experience to sort out these complicated transactions on the taxpayers behalf simply don't exist - the entire regulatory arm of the government has been gutted - we've lots of new homeland security staff and border guards, but few people who understand the complexities of modern economics - our glorious leader expounding the depth of his grasp on economics:

“There’s no question about it. Wall Street got drunk — that’s one of the reasons I asked you to turn off the TV cameras — it got drunk and now it’s got a hangover. The question is how long will it sober up and not try to do all these fancy financial instruments.”
– George W. Bush, speaking at a private fundraiser, Houston, Texas, July 18, 2008

Other people do his thinking for him, he's busy.



It is important to know and understand that banks (in the vast majority of cases) no longer own the promissory notes, nor hold the mortgages. Thus they are not empowered to renegotiate the terms of either instrument - the P-note is the debt instrument and the mortgage is the security instrument.

"Renegotiate" is a term that could be thought of as synonomous with "loan modification," and this is becoming the real buzz word in the mortgage mess and industry.

Banks are rarely lenders of mortgages. Instead they serve as "originators" and as "loan servicers." Loan servicing is more or less collecting payments from borrowers and then forwarding the proceeds onto the actual owners and holders of the instruments. Those owners and holders are the investors in the Mortgage Backed Security pool (MBS). 

A typical morgate transaction happens in this way.

1) A broker "sells" a "product" (loan) to a borrower. The broker is acting on behalf of an originating lender (who isn't really lending their own assets), which may or may not be a typical bank.

2) The originating lender frequently does not fund the loan but rather utilizes a financing "sponsor." Think of the sponsor as a "monetary warehouse" that has piles of money the originator is able to gain access to on a temporary basis.

3) The originator never intended to maintain possession of either instrument and typically they are sold to another intermediary immediately. At this point the money the originator "borrowed" is returned to the sponors warehouse with the originator taking a cut of the profits. The sponsor also gets a cut of the profits.

4) This intermediary is used as a transfer agent for a trust, or an MBS, and is frequently identifed as the "depsoitor" in documents of the trust itself.

5) The physical instruments are now held by a custodian on behalf of the trust.

6) The trust is managed by a trustee. Typically a trustee (such as Deutsche Bank) can also be an owner/investor, but is not an owner by virtue of being the trustee.

Originators typically maintain the rights to service the loans. In many cases it appears the originator is still the owner and holder - but such is rarely the case. The profit in servicing loans is rather small. Loan servicers are able to increase their profits by assessing/attaching fees onto the accounts of the borrowers. This is how and where the term "mortgage servicing fraud" has developed as many of these fees are bogus and fraudulent. They are also intentional and are used to push borrowers into default first, and then foreclosure. The truth is there is money to be made by servicers on defaults foreclosures. Otherwise they wouldn't be operating these schemes. Who in their right mind continues operating in ways that is costing them money instead of making them money?

Investors don't really care how the loans are being serviced or what is happening to the borrowers as long as the payments keep coming in.

Now, who are the investors? Not usually individuals. More common is pension funds, school boards and districts, city and county governments, foreign governments, unions, insurance companies (more on that in a minute), etc. To buy in requires a fair amount of capital.

Ultimately each investor owns a small slice of each and every note and mortgage, as opposed to owning any single note and mortgage outright. This is complicated further by the ratings of the instruments, the percentage of each level instrument in each of numerous different tranches, etc. I'm trying to keep on the simple side for easier understanding so I'll blow past this part of the story.

The document that codifies the contractual agreement between the parties with a continuing involvement and relationship, the trust (investors) and the loan servicer is known as the Pooling and Servicing Agreement (PSA) and can be located through the SEC Registration Statement the trust is required to file (available online). These documents are typically 2000 - 2500 pages long and every contingency is dealt with and codified.

Now I get to my overall point.

Loan modifications are being worked out between originators/loan servicers and borrowers. This usually involves adding arrearages to the tail end of the payment schedule, reductions in interest rates, converting ARMs to fixed rate mortgages, reductions in principle amounts, extending the loan period, etc.

Cut out of this loop of negotiations are the investors - the very parties who have been promised regular payments and profits, and the very parties that are in fact the owners and holders of the instruments.

Loan servicers are bound to deliver regular payments and profits to the investors, again as codifed in the PSA. When they "modify" loans and mortgages they are reducing the amount of the payments and profits from the borrower - a loss - and are passing these losses on to the investors in the MBS. They don't have the power or authority to do this.

Also codified in the PSA are terms by which the originator is to handle and deal with a non-performing loan. The originators made promises to the investors that the loans that had been pooled together, thus "securitizing" the pool, were all of regulatory conformance, had been made to qualified applicants, etc. In other words originators said "Yep, these are all good loans and we guarantee them."

When a loan becomes a non-performing loan originators are required, by the PSA, to either 1) purchase the loan back from the MBS, or 2) substitute a non-performing loan with a performing loan. In either case the originator ends up taking back the "toxic paper" and must either use its own money, or sell it to another investor.

Stated clearly again, neither the originator nor the loan servicer has the authority to modify loans. Only the investor has that authority.

In a case in spring of 2008 fifteen State Attorney Generals filed suit against Bank of America. BoA made an offer to the AG's to modify $8.4 billion of loans. The deal was cut, the suits dropped, the loans modified. Seemed the best deal all around. Until the investors caught wind of it all.

Now the investors in the MBS are suing BoA for breech, etc., etc. They are in essence saying "Hey, you can't do this and merely pass the losses on to us. You want to modify these loans then you need to buy them back and do it on your own as owner and holder."

The problem originators have is that they don't have the capital needed to do this. We're talking in the hundreds of billions of dollars for many of these originators, and for some in the trillions of dollars. They never set themselves up to be the owners. They never intended to be more than a pass through, and to reap some fees for originating and then in ongoing servicing fees.

In the sub-prime and Alt-A markets the vast majority of the loans originated by these, er, um, originators are so far out of regulatory compliance that they are both rescindable and voidable. Material misrepresentation and fraud in origination according to Truth in Lending Act, Home Owners Equity Protection Act, etc.

They are in one helluva pickle. And so are we as our economy has essentially been built around this house of cards for the past decade.

It also becomes more complicated when the foreclosure mess is brought in to the picture. Because P-notes and mortgages are being moved, bought and sold, transferred so often and so quickly the required paperwork is rarely tended to. This creates cloud and/or slander of title. It also makes it very difficult to perfect a claim on the instruments. A perfected claim is required in order to legally enforce an instrument. Foreclosure is an example of such enforcement.

Chain of custody for both the P-notes and the mortgages, if done as required by law, is really a simple matter.

In the case of P-notes it is handled by endoresement and delivery. There will be several parts of the transactions that are memorialized: ledger entries on the part of both parties describing the consideration tendered and accepted, receipts and signatures for the overnight and/or express mail deliveries, the actual endoresements whether "Pay to the Order of ____" or done by "Endorsement in Blank."

Promoissory notes are considered "negotiable instruments" and governing laws can be found in Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. Every state, or nearly every state has adopted the UCC and it can be found in the statutes, or revised statutes, of each state. In Kentucky it is found in KRS Section 355.

Mortgages are transferred through "assignments of mortgage." These transactions are also memorialized and when done according to law are also easily tracked.

What is frequently occurring in the "world of mortgages" is that the notes and mortgages are traveling different paths and are being "severed." The P-notes are the debt, or financial, instruments and as such they have the value. A mortgage is nothing but a security instrument for a P-note. The mortgage itself is the document that allows the note to be enforced.

So the P-notes are sold, transferred, moved, etc., and typically the mortgage follows another path altogether. At each transfer of the P-note someone is making money. And they typically don't care about the security instrument as there is no profit in that for them.

What is important is that neither document by itself is enforcable. Without a security instrument attached to a note there is no way to collect on it (this is true in the case of "mortgage loan" transactions and instruments though it may differ for other types of promissory notes and negotiable instruments). Without a debt or financial instrument attached to a mortgage there is nothing to collect on.

So the issues of chain of custody, perfection of claim, and severence are vital to enforcing a P-note through the process of foreclosure.

When a claim is unperfected and proper chain of custody cannot be demonstrated through multiple transactions multiple parties have equal claim - thus no party has a perfected claim.

The short of this is that many foreclosures are based on unperfected claims and are thus unlawful and illegal. This is also gonna hit the courts in the coming months and countless suits will be brought against foreclosing parties in the name of borrowers saying "Hey, you didn't have a right to take my stuff. Now give it back." The borrowers will be within their rights to bring suit and demand such and many of them will win. What a mess that will be for the courts, the foreclosing party, the new buyer os the property, etc.

I've been saying for going on 2 years now that most of this mess could have been avoided if the courts had simply paid attention and ruled according to the law. I saw it coming and recognized it when it arrived. I didn't see the depth and breadth of the ripples it is causing (the overall economic meltdown), just this "genesis" aspect in the form of the housing and lending industries.

I promised more info on insurance companies. I promise I'll be brief on this.

Insurance companies make more profits on their investments than they do on policy payments and sales. They have a fair amount of money to throw around in the "markets."

Mortgages are, in almost all cases, insured against losses by the owners and holders. If a loan becomes non-performing and forclosure is required the owners of the loans submit claims against their policies and recoup on those losses.

Insurance companies that insure against loan and mortgage losses have been investing in (I hope you're sitting down) Mortgage Backed Security pools.

So when mortgage losses occur the insurance companies have also lost and are thus unable to pay out the claims. This is one of the things that bit AIG.

OK, enough.

Uncle Nasty

PS Be prepared for economic and monetary collapse to keep gathering momentum. There is a lot to it that has yet to unfold.

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/10/2009 2:49:43 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Senator Schumer goes further and says; "government does have a role to play in their everyday lives." Do you believe this?

The only role government has in my life is to stand on the street corner like the benighted bedraggled mendicant that it is begging pitifully for pennies.

In all other respects, I want government to stay very far away from me and mine--preferably so far away as to no longer exist.



Well, if you expect goverment to stay far away from "you and yours', you might as well start to think of someplace elese to live. If Obama and the democrat party has its way they will be involved in every intimate detail of your life.
The most dangerous, obviously, would be a "National Healthcare Program" run by a government that has run nothing right in decades.  Imagine the "power" of a government with a blank check book to write trillions of dollars worth of self-serving programs and "shovel ready" projects.  We're going to to get change alright...that's about all we are going to have left in our pockets...small change.....

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 6:32:15 AM   
Amaros


Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

OK, enough.

Uncle Nasty

PS Be prepared for economic and monetary collapse to keep gathering momentum. There is a lot to it that has yet to unfold.
Like I said - complicated.

The real kicker to me is that the people that made the loans to begin with and committed most of the fraud, the brokers - and not all brokers - are going to walk away from it scott free - the DOJ doesn't have the manpower and resources to prosecute them, and the feeling is that the due diligence should have been done by the banks that bought the loan bundles: the argument being that if one buys what one know are fraudulent goods, then no fraud has been committed.

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 7:05:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

the feeling is that the due diligence should have been done by the banks that bought the loan bundles: the argument being that if one buys what one know are fraudulent goods, then no fraud has been committed.


Amoros,
The 'perfect storm' for the results we are living through; the corporate greed of the financial institutions, and government enabling by mandating unqualified loans be made to unqualified borrowers in the name of 'good intent'. On the regulatory side, there were too many trips to the Bahamas for speaking engagements on the line; and not one elected official has the integrity to stand up and say; not everyone can or should be a homeowner.

Based upon the plans and policies being suggested; it seems to be the business model for the incoming administration. I don't know how anyone can expect any positive outcome; unless you believe that the government should be everyone's employer, manage all businesses, and have daily government involvement in your life.

(in reply to Amaros)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 10:37:02 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

quote:

OK, enough.

Uncle Nasty

PS Be prepared for economic and monetary collapse to keep gathering momentum. There is a lot to it that has yet to unfold.
Like I said - complicated.

The real kicker to me is that the people that made the loans to begin with and committed most of the fraud, the brokers - and not all brokers - are going to walk away from it scott free - the DOJ doesn't have the manpower and resources to prosecute them, and the feeling is that the due diligence should have been done by the banks that bought the loan bundles: the argument being that if one buys what one know are fraudulent goods, then no fraud has been committed.



I'm not a real attorney, I just play one on TV, LOL. But I've been in the thick of researching this issue for quite some time now. At this point I'm finding I'm more knowledgeable than most attorneys on the "housing" issues.

I understand your point Amaros but believe you are in error. From a practical standpoint it isn't the brokers pulling the strings of the original loan transaction. It is the loan originators (INDYMac Bank, Countrywide, WaMu, etc.). Brokers are, again practically speaking, made to conform to the standards and processes set by the originators. If they don't push the paper in the ways originators want they are cut out of the loop.

I don't intend to give them a pass. I only mean to point out the Dominant and controlling partner is the originator.

Regarding due diligence, both broker and originator have fiduciary duties to the borrower, to each other, and then further up the chain to the trust and investors.

The first and last parties in the chain (borrower and investor respectively) have the least fiduciary duties.

The PSA binds the originator, the party selling the product into the pool/trust, has an absolute fiduciary duty to accurately and truthfully represent the loans they are selling into the trust.  They have the same duty in representing the "loan product" to the borrower. I'm wondering now what their duties are to the brokers. I'll be looking into that. 

Regarding fraud the end purchaser (investor) is not absolved of liability whether or not they knew of previous frauds committed in connection with the instruments.

Consumer Credit Protection Act, section 131 (d):

(d)  RIGHTS UPON ASSIGNMENT OF CERTAIN MORTGAGES.--
   (1)  IN GENERAL.--Any person who purchases or is otherwise assigned a mortgage referred to in section 103(aa) shall be subject to all claims and defenses with respect to that mortgage that the consumer could assert against the creditor of the mortgage, unless the purchaser or assignee demonstrates, by a preponderance of the evidence, that a reasonable person exercising ordinary due diligence, could not determine, based on the documentation required by this title, the itemization of the amount financed, and other disclosure of disbursements that the mortage was a mortgage referred to in section 103(aa). The preceding sentence does not affect rights of a consumer under subsection (a), (b), or (c) of this section or any other provision of this title. 
  
The above covers lack of knowledge. Knowing of violations or fraud simply makes them a party to the fruad as it relates to a borrower so they aren't absolved of liability in either case.


M and b:

In brief, the "government" has encouraged lending through various programs and legislation. The term you used, "unqualified," was never a part of that. They never mandated making loans to "unqualified" borrowers. There are numerous statutes and regulations that govern those programs and legislation.

What is becoming more clear as this unfolds in front of us is not that the programs failed but instead that brokers, originators, appraisors, rating agencies, etc., refused to follow those numerous statutes and regulations. The volume of non-compliant loans and mortgages made by originators, and the number of originators that did so, is more indicative of an industry wide flagant pattern of disregard for these statutes and regulations.

Even in the case of "no document" and "liars loans" brokers and originators had some hurdles to cross in qualifying the borrowers. Those terms (and industry practices) were developed by industry professionals, not by borrowers. I've also heard the term "neutron loans" used - they kill the people but leave the buildings in tact. (As an addendum there is no such thing as a "no document" loan as demonstrated by regulations cited below.)

Some of these regulations are located in the same act, in what is referred to as Regulation Z, in section 226.34, titled "Prohibited acts or practices in connection with credit subject to § 226.32."

(a)  Prohibited acts or practices for loans subject to § 226.32. A creditor extending mortgage credit subject to § 226.32 shall not--

(2)  Notice to assignee. Sell or otherwise assign a mortgage subject to § 226.32 without furnishing the following statement to the purchaser or assignee: "Notice: This is a mortgage subject to special rules under the federal Truth in Lending Act. Purchasers or assignees of this mortgage could be liable for all claims and defenses with respect to the mortgage that the borrower could assert against the creditor."

(4)  Repayment ability.  Extend credit subject to § 226.32 to a consumer based on the value of the consumer's collateral without regard to the consumer's repayment ability as of consummation, including the consumer's current and reasonably expected income, employment, assets other than the collateral, current obligations, and mortgage-related obligations.
     (i)  Mortgage-related obligations.  For purposes of this paragraph (a)(4), mortgage-related obligations are expected property taxes, premiums for mortgage-related insurance required by the creditor as set forth in § 226.35(b)(3)(i), and similar expenses.
     (ii)  Verification of repayment ability.  Under this paragraph (a)(4) a creditor must verify the consumer's repayment ability as follows:
       (A)  A creditor must verify amounts of income or assets that it relies on to determine repayment ability, including expected income or assets, by the consumer's Internal Revenue Service Form W--2, tax returns, payroll receipts, financial institution records, or other third-party documents that provide reasonably reliable evidence of the consumer's income or assets.
       (B)  Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(4)(ii)(A), a creditor has not violated paragraph (a)(4)(ii) if the amounts of income and assets that the creditor relied upon in determining repayment ability are not materially greater than the amounts of the consumer's income or assets that the creditor could have verified pursuant to paragraph (a)(4)(ii)(A) at the time the loan was consummated.
       (C)  A creditor must verify the consumer's current obligations.
     (iii)  Presumption of compliance.  A creditor is presumed to have complied with this paragraph (a)(4) with respect to a transaction if the creditor:
       (A)  Verifies the consumer's repayment ability as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii);
       (B)  Determines the consumer's repayment ability using the largest payment of principal and interest scheduled in the first seven years following consummation and taking into account current obligations and mortgage-related obligations as defined in paragraph (a)(4)(i); and
       (C)  Assesses the consumer's repayment ability taking into account at least one of the following: The ratio of total debt obligations to income, or the income the consumer will have after paying debt obligations.

There is also an obligation for creditors to memorialize the documentation in support of income, etc., also found in Regulation Z, Section 226.25, and titled "Record Retention."

(a)  General rule.  A creditor shall retain evidence of compliance with this regulation (other than advertising requirements under §§ 226.16 and 226.24) for 2 years after the date disclosures are required to be made or action is required to be taken. The administrative agencies responsible for enforcing the regulation may require creditors under their jurisdictions to retain records for a longer period if necessary to carry out their enforcement responsibilities under § 108 of the act.
 (b)  Inspection of records.  A creditor shall permit the agency responsible for enforcing this regulation with respect to that creditor to inspect its relevant records for compliance.


If we were to go back through all the foreclosures in the past 5 years I am certain, based on my research and knowledge, that the vast majority of them would be found to be not in compliance with even the most foundational and crucial statutes and regulations.

This presents opportunities for borrowers to have their loans (the original transactions) voided. Mortgages are contracts, and contracts based on fraud are not valid, legally binding or enforceable. In lesser violative circumstances it presents opportunities for borrowers to rescind the loans/mortgages/contracts. Rescision is covered in the same act cited above. It also presents opportunities for borrowers to recover specified damages based on statutes and regulations, and unspecified damages from independent suits and torts against all of the many parties that are involved and complicit. Judicial misconduct suits are also a reasonable expectation as the courts have consistently ruled for Plainiffs in foreclosure cases without regard to the laws.

Originators are fighting like the devil to defeat any and all litigation revolving around any of the issues I've covered in this post, and in my previous posts on this matter. They are in the same position big tobacco was in during the 80's and 90's - they can't afford to loose once. Flood gates will open as a result of the precedents and not only will current litigation be threatened, but past litigation and court decisions will be challenged and overturned.

As it is now litigation is being initiated against originators by borrowers individually, in class action suits conjoining multiple borrowers, and also by investors in the securitized pools. They are being attacked from both directions and they will eventually loose.


Again, enough.

Uncle Nasty (with tired hands)





(in reply to Amaros)
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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 10:45:49 AM   
Owner59


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I think the sharp suits and well organized business like approach has you fooled ,Merc.

It won`t be business as usual,I promise you.

Though he never was the radical/socialist/liberal that he was called recently,he will ruffle feathers not only on the right and left but also on the corporate and union side.

The only thing radical about Obama will be his competence,fair play,stick to it-ness,willingness to make all parties contribute/sacrifice and he won`t steal the bank while we`re asleep.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/11/2009 10:47:41 AM >


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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 8:29:20 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I think the sharp suits and well organized business like approach has you fooled ,Merc.

It won`t be business as usual,I promise you.

Though he never was the radical/socialist/liberal that he was called recently,he will ruffle feathers not only on the right and left but also on the corporate and union side.

The only thing radical about Obama will be his competence,fair play,stick to it-ness,willingness to make all parties contribute/sacrifice and he won`t steal the bank while we`re asleep.


What do you base that on considering his 'plan'? The 'plan' he is following is more of the President Bush plan of economic stimulus, adding to the deficit, increasing bureaucracy.  Where is any actual evidence of the "contribution and sacrifice" you allude? Isn't the promise of an additional Trillion deficit the reference you used for the 'bank' of our children's future? Is it now not as consequential?

I don't care about the label the bureaucracy, bloated government, and bloated involvement in everyday life can be called anything you'd like - just explain how it works to stimulate a privately funding and thriving economy and I'm willing to listen.

BTW- What is the reference "sharp suits and well organized business like approach has you fooled"? What's to be fooled? I think its very direct-wrong but not fooling anyone, except those who see a positive result. Unless you have one. Beyond your "promise" that is.

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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/11/2009 9:49:09 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Nasty, as I read your last post, it seems as though "stated income" loans are non-compliant WRT the CCPA. Is that your understanding?

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/12/2009 8:50:30 AM   
Amaros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Amoros,
The 'perfect storm' for the results we are living through; the corporate greed of the financial institutions, and government enabling by mandating unqualified loans be made to unqualified borrowers in the name of 'good intent'. On the regulatory side, there were too many trips to the Bahamas for speaking engagements on the line; and not one elected official has the integrity to stand up and say; not everyone can or should be a homeowner.

It was the current administration that created the "perfect storm", which numerous people predicted, and it's jsut this sort of hysteria about sound governmental management that created this situation in the first place. The financial institutions put their own head in the noose, but yes, a delusional deregulatory fantasy of limited downside and unlimited upside, coupled with unnaturally low interest rates certainly led a lot of people to think that the laws of supply and demand were suddenly suspended and encouraged fraud.

There's no free rides, an unregulated economy only enables unethical business practices and crowds out the ethical ones, a very predictable facet of human nature that did not escape Adam Smith - if you want fair competition, you have to regulate, if not, your "law of the jungle" economics leads to fraud and market manipulation, bubbles, and eventually, economic collapse - again, courtesy of Adam Smith, who saw it coming.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Based upon the plans and policies being suggested; it seems to be the business model for the incoming administration. I don't know how anyone can expect any positive outcome; unless you believe that the government should be everyone's employer, manage all businesses, and have daily government involvement in your life.
I think no such thing, and very few people do, except maybe the masses of right wing appointees, but the fact remains that maintaining a level playing field requires some effort, wiothout it, all economic systems devolve into feudalism - free markets are only one phase in economic evolution, the most productive phase, and capitalism is all about maintaining this natural state of affairs after the point that it has ceased to be natural.

I haven't seen the business model of the incoming administration, but they will have to deal with the public, for a start, I'll be satisfied if they're more transparent than the current administration, who listened to no one, and did everything they could to undermine free markets with corporatist policies.

The next stage after free markets have devolved into feudalism, is stagnation and collapse, and the whole thing starts over again.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 1/12/2009 8:52:31 AM >

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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/12/2009 8:55:23 AM   
UncleNasty


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Yes HK.

It is, of course, more complicated than that simple answer.

The majority of foreclosures were/are in the sub-prime class. That was true in the early stages of the "melt-down" but high foreclosure rates are now bleeding into other sectors of the mortgage market. Almost all sub-prime loans are not in compliance with various regulations and statutes.

Sub-prime loans, because they are high cost loans, also fall under the Home Owners Equity Protection Act. There are triggers that establish a loan into this category and under this additional body of regulations. These regulations place additional requirements and restrictions on lenders. Lenders prefer not to be burdened.

Originators, in cooperation with brokers, have become very skilled at disguising these high cost loans. They also "push the envelope" and get as close as they can without crossing the thresholds. Because they tweak everywhere they can it is common for them to tweak and push just a little too much. They also fudge numbers on required disclosures. When these dynamics are combined it almost always crosses the thresholds and triggers.

This isn't apparent on the face of the documents because of the numbers they fudge. A more in depth and accurate annalysis is required in order to bring these facts to light. A skilled mortgage auditor, or a forensic mortgage auditor, can see the inaccuracies easily, but most lay folks are not informed or aware enough of the various regulations to recognize it. And this is what originators have counted on. A gamble that largely has been effective.

For instance, the APR stated on the Truth in Lending statement (TIL) which must be provided at closing must be accurate within 1/8 points in all cases. The "rate trigger" that pushes a loan into the "high cost" category is the rate of Treasury Securities on the 15th day of the previous month, plus 8%. If the APR of the loan is above that number it is a high cost loan. The rate stated on the TIL is also required to use "worst case" numbers in the case of an adjustable rate mortgage. In other words the APR must be calculated using the maximum number of adjustments, and each of the adjustments must also be to the maximum.

What I have seen on TILs I have reviewed is an APR based on incomplete calculations. Originators will state an APR that is under that threshold but they have determined that number by calculating through only one or two adjustments. When calculated through all adjustments, in accordance with statute and regulation, the APR is actually much higher and does cross the rate trigger. A rate increase of 4% - 5% is common.

There are not only statutes and regulations in place to protect consumers, there are also the fiduciary duties on the part of some of the players. The broker and originator both have regulatory obligations, and fiduciary duties, to consumers. Clearly they are not living up to either obligation.

Uncle Nasty



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RE: Activist & Expansive Government - Mandate? - 1/19/2009 9:35:37 AM   
Amaros


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I appreciate the breakdown UncleNasty,the media does not do a good job of keeping people informed these days - speculation had quite a bit to do with it too, several areas of the country are glutted with spec properties that have nothing to do with subprime loans - then there were the intermediaries packaging loan bundles exchanging sexual favors for paper from the brokers, the Bush administration greasing the tracks by overriding state predatory lending laws, etc.

My point about the Paulson docterine is that they are more worried about the credit crunch than the mortgage packaging that created the mess: everybody is holding paper and nobody knows what it's worth, so they just aren't lending to anybody, and that is going to have an even larger ripple effect, possibly of Great Depression proportions.

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