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RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 12:37:00 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

We were instructed to use WP as an incendiary only, and were told that it was against the conventions to use it on enemy personnel, though if enemy personnel were at an ammo or fuel dump or if they were carrying gas cans or any other containers that could be used to carry liquids or munitions then it would be perfectly legal under international law to drop WP on them.

I also had one instructor suggest <wink> <wink> that if you were in a bad situation, and if your artillery batteries were out of high explosive rounds, a canteen can be used to transport fuel, and that rifle clips are commonly used to store and transport ammo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Since you mentioned the better smoke available with another form of Smoke Round for artillary shells, I checked the other type the Base Ejection of multiple smoke grenades. Found this little jewel and I would be willing to be good money that if they used the base eject models in Gaza then the chemical weapons bullshit would be just as high due to the following:

Screening smoke grenades usually contain HC (hexachloroethane/zinc) smoke mixture or TA (terephthalic acid) smoke mixture. HC smoke is harmful to breathe, since it contains hydrochloric acid.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/15/2009 12:46:03 PM >

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 181

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 12:42:28 PM

KaineD

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

From your own source:

BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims.

...

Research and reporting by Hamada Abu Qammar in Gaza and Heather Sharp, Fouad Abu Ghosh and Raya el-Din in Jerusalem

From the BBC's own website:

Reporting from Gaza
by James Stephenson
6 Jan 09, 10:31 AM

The BBC is lucky to have two outstanding producers in our Gaza office, Rushdi Abu Alouf and Hamada Abuqammar. .

From a website which chronicles some of the "Beebs" problems:

Yet again, journalistic professionalism is thrown out of the window in the BBC's desperate attempts to attack and sully Israel. A story claiming that IDF soldiers have fired on Gaza civilians attempting to leave their homes - in some cases carrying white flags - is based on totally unverifiable and unsubstantiated claims.

The article states that "BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims." Who are these BBC journalists in Gaza? On the basis that foreign press have not been allowed access to Gaza, one can only assume that these supposedly neutral observers are, in fact, Palestinians. This seems to be confirmed by a footnote in the story: "Research and reporting by Hamada Abu Qammar in Gaza and Heather Sharp, Fouad Abu Ghosh and Raya el-Din in Jerusalem."

So the BBC is relying on a Palestinian 'journalist' and Palestinian 'eyewitnesses' in Gaza along with others who are nowhere near the conflict zone. This form of agenda-driven reporting sees the BBC sinking to new moral lows.

And if you wish even more proof, Google the stories that the BBC's man in Gaza has written before. Any half way intelligent, honest person can see the slant.

Oh, wait ... no need for you to read them ...

Firm

Pathetic. Verging on racist. Journalists that are Palestinian with arab sounding names can't be trusted? Wonderful.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 182

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 12:50:02 PM

KaineD

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Joined: 2/14/2006
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Another thing.

You say his stories have a slant. Obviously I take that to mean you think his reports are unfairly biased in favor of the people in Gaza, and possibly false.

To really show that, what you should do is find reports from other journalists based within Gaza that contradict what Hamada Abu Qammar says. Good luck.

(in reply to KaineD)

Post #: 183

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 12:59:14 PM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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You are presenting straight propaganda. I have zero expectations that you'll acknowledge anything that goes against your assigned story line.

My actual audience are the people who may have been reading this threads crap, and might have been unsure or uncertain.

Your posts already have zero creditability with anyone who has critical thinking abilities. In fact, even if your position did hold even a semblance of truth, your bungling of your presentation has pretty much removed you as an agent of influence on the subject in this thread.

I suspect that most of the remaining posters are continuing to engage here simply because there is such an easy target.

Best of wishes to you.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to KaineD)

Post #: 184

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 1:08:01 PM

KaineD

Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You are presenting straight propaganda. I have zero expectations that you'll acknowledge anything that goes against your assigned story line.

My actual audience are the people who may have been reading this threads crap, and might have been unsure or uncertain.

Your posts already have zero creditability with anyone who has critical thinking abilities. In fact, even if your position did hold even a semblance of truth, your bungling of your presentation has pretty much removed you as an agent of influence on the subject in this thread.

I suspect that most of the remaining posters are continuing to engage here simply because there is such an easy target.

Best of wishes to you.

Firm

Someone that claims the BBC has Hamas assist them write their articles hasn't any leg to stand on when he accuses someone else of having "zero credibility". Still waiting for some evidence of that, by the way.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 185

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 1:47:10 PM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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Firm, the BBC producer you named lives in Gaza. He didn't have to be allowed in - he was in to begin with. The BBC is a Chartered organisation and is accountable to every UK citizen on impartilaity grounds. It is also subject to a full Parliamentary Review every ten years. It is often later with a story because their standard of fact-checking is actually pretty high and journalists who can't stand a story up do not last there. Does your website "honest reporting" have the same level of accountability or is it perhaps run from some unknown's back bedroom?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 186

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 2:23:57 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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Reality,

I understand. And, I have no actual knowledge of his personality, other than it is apparent that he is a Palestinian (or is at least an Arab who lives in Gaza), and may therefore be suspected of less than perfect impartiality.

Several other news organizations in the Middle East have been "caught" using local stringers with suspect loyalties, and in submitting (and getting published) photoshopped pictures for news stories.

And there is a widespread belief that the BBC is specifically reporting activities in the ME and about Israel that tend to favor one side over the other. From memory, there was even a leaked BBC document that gave guidance on how to cover the area, which many consider extremely biased against Israel, along with their own internal report that found widespread bias in other areas a little over a year ago.

Perhaps the reporter is the Edward R Murrow of Arabic journalist. He is currently trapped in Gaza. Hamas has been known to kill people they don't like. If his reports were laudatory about the caution the Israelis were using .... do you think he might be in a slight bit of danger?

Does his family live there as well?

Hell, CNN played footsie with Saddam Hussein just to keep an office in the pre-war Iraq.

And, tell me ... does Hamas have a Public Relations department? An information warfare office (by whatever name).

If so ... who or what would be the highest value conduit for them during this conflict, with most journalist not allowed in Gaza?

Finally, despite what Kaine is saying, please read my original post where this comes up, and notice the exact words I used .... "gives credance to" and "I have little doubt". These are not claims of absolute knowledge as Kaine seems to be reading them.

But I do have experience in this specific, very technical area, and I see all the hallmarks of something less than completely impartial, unbiased reporting.

Regardless, please read the article that started this strand of the discussion, and tell me how many times the article makes claims (even with appropriate "weasel words") that say that Israeli soldiers are acting in a less than honorable manner, and stack that up against journalist standards of proof, and tell me if you believe the report is completely objective?

Firm

PS You and I have had the "Is the BBC biased?" discussion before, methinks.

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 187

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 2:35:56 PM

piratecommander

Posts: 895
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch

Yes, because Native Americans on reservations all over the country are tossing rockets at US civilians as we speak.

They *are* in the same situation, they are a country within a country and dependent on the United States. There are at least two differences, 1). They aren't Islamic and therefore they don't feel the need to be at war 24/7 with any neighbour not already under islamic law. 2). They know we'd kick their asses if they attempted any of that bullshit (and that would only require the FBI, much less our military).

Israel hasn't *grown* it took land that was of strategic value to the enemy during a war *it did not start*. It gave a bunch of that land back recently and that show of weakness has had the predictable effect.

Ahhh...so in other words, whoever has the biggest and most weapons justifies the actions whether it's right or wrong? Just a worldwide version of school yard bullying in a sense.
Did you ever stop to think that with the Native Americans and Native Canadians, they used their brains and they infiltrated the system and then used that knowledge against us for the purpose to correct a wring that was dealt to their nation hundreds of years ago?

the worst news is ..... youre right Bear

Pirate

(in reply to beargonewild)

Post #: 188

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 2:41:14 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I understand. And, I have no actual knowledge of his personality, other than it is apparent that he is a Palestinian (or is at least an Arab who lives in Gaza), and may therefore be suspected of less than perfect impartiality.

...that is certainly one possibility. However, there is, at least, one more possibility. He is accurately reporting his experience and the reason it doesn't gel with the message from the US media is because the US media is hopelessly biased towards Israel.

i was living in the US some years ago and saw on the news how some Palestinian had suicide bombed a bus. Horrible stuff. It was nearly the lead story. i decided to look the story up on the BBC website to glean further details and was somewhat surprised to learn that a couple of hours earlier Israel had tried to hit some terrorist, missed and took out a bunch of Palestinian kids on the way to school. The Palestinian terrorists claimed the bus bombing as retaliation. However the US media simply didn't report the killing of the Palestinian kids.
Now, in my opinion, both sets of killings were wrong. However US media seems to have a major problem reporting one sides atrocities while focussing exclusively on the other sides atrocities. At least the BBC reported both.
i can see why US media makes this decision, after all Israel is a US ally in a region that doesn't have a lot of pro-US feeling. However, the reality is that both sides have acted like utter bastards. Both sides have their share of shameful blood on their hands. Both sides need a good slap upside the head. But one side will avoid that slap while the US is their ally and the other side will suffer disproportionally.
What you see as bias towards the Palestinians in BBC reporting is merely an attempt to rectify the shameful bias that has existed in US propaganda for Israel for far too long. It's a bit like finding out that a long term friend is actually a horrible criminal weho has committed unforgiveable acts. Too many Americans are doing the equivilant of sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and shouting 'lalalalalalaicanthearyou' when confronted with Israeli war crimes.
Your good friend in the middle east is not the paragon of virtue you take him for. He's not a good person at all. He may be salvageable but not while you insist that he has never done any wrong and those that accuse him of doing so are liars.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 189

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 3:21:20 PM

piratecommander

Posts: 895
Joined: 8/20/2008
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You have guts and you are honest ..... so do I and so am I, this is not always a nice thing, but.................do you advocate slaughter ? I'm moderated...... you ??????

Pirate

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 190

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 4:26:17 PM

ModeratorEleven

Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

I'm moderated...... you ??????

No, you're not.

XI

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This mod goes to eleven.

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Post #: 191

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 8:38:35 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

What you see as bias towards the Palestinians in BBC reporting is merely an attempt to rectify the shameful bias that has existed in US propaganda for Israel for far too long. It's a bit like finding out that a long term friend is actually a horrible criminal weho has committed unforgiveable acts. Too many Americans are doing the equivilant of sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and shouting 'lalalalalalaicanthearyou' when confronted with Israeli war crimes.

uh, philo, you sure you want to make that argument?

In effect, you are saying that it is right and proper for Hamas supporters to lie and falsify reports of atrocities by Israel ... to balance the books? For the greater good or something?

What type or system of morality is that based on?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 192

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 8:44:09 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

It would seem to me that those imposing the media blackout/censorship, are the one`s with something to hide.

That would be Israel.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 193

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 8:59:22 PM

ArticMaestro

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
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Or they don't want to have to worry about accidentally killing them in a war zone....It's not like they have gone after the journalists there, or attempted to jam thier transmissions. Cut the phone lines. Which they could do if they wanted to. I mean we saw film today (and everyday since it started) , and heard interviews with people in Gaza.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 194

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 9:03:30 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

uh, philo, you sure you want to make that argument?

...not the argument you're suggesting i put forward, no.....

quote:

In effect, you are saying that it is right and proper for Hamas supporters to lie and falsify reports of atrocities by Israel ... to balance the books? For the greater good or something?

....nope, that's not what i'm saying. BTW, thank you for not pretending that the US coverage of this issue is not horrendously biased. However, to rectify such a situation it's not necessary to simply lie in the other direction. All one needs to do is present the things not already presented.....such as the IDF targeting UN food warehouses and then simply apologising afterwards. As if we don't remember the IDF targeting a UN observation post during the ill-advised adventure into Lebanon. Something of a pattern there eh?

quote:

What type or system of morality is that based on?

......what you've accused me of is mere tit-for-tat and not useful. What i actually suggested was telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. i'm sure you'll recognise what system of morality that idea is based on

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 195

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 9:26:06 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

Or they don't want to have to worry about accidentally killing them in a war zone....It's not like they have gone after the journalists there, or attempted to jam thier transmissions. Cut the phone lines. Which they could do if they wanted to. I mean we saw film today (and everyday since it started) , and heard interviews with people in Gaza.

Of course....everything`s fine.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

Post #: 196

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 9:27:18 PM

ArticMaestro

Posts: 178
Joined: 12/8/2008
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So I should take that to mean you don't have a real response, and are conceeding the point, owner59?

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 197

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/15/2009 9:44:13 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......what you've accused me of is mere tit-for-tat and not useful. What i actually suggested was telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. i'm sure you'll recognise what system of morality that idea is based on

I've not accused you of anything philo. I sought clarification.

And you have not yet taken a position on the morality of the propaganda efforts of Hamas, as portrayed in the article under question.

Absence of condemnation can be seen as approval.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 198

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/16/2009 12:40:57 AM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've not accused you of anything philo. I sought clarification.

....fair enough.

quote:

And you have not yet taken a position on the morality of the propaganda efforts of Hamas, as portrayed in the article under question.

....{sighs} ......it's you who have suggested that a BBC piece that attempts to suggest that the IDF might not be shining paragons of virtue is Hamas propaganda. As far as i can see you have proffered no proof of this other than the writer was living in Gaza.
So, let's not put the cart before the horse. Show me where the writer is a member of Hamas, don;t bother if all you have is that he's met with Hamas. Any journalist worth their salt would want to meet with both sides. Seems to me, your only 'proof' that this is Hamas propaganda is that the version of the story doesn't gel with what you've been told is happening over there.

quote:

Absence of condemnation can be seen as approval.

....and, may i take your absence of condemnation of the biased reporting of this issue in US media as approval?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 199

RE: Gaza/Israel situation - 1/16/2009 12:51:17 AM

piratecommander

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Joined: 8/20/2008
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Being in Gaza and having been "allowed" in are two different things,surely ? (some people who LIVE there are still alive you know (remarkable as it may seem)
If I was a journalist in Gaza right now,I'm sure I'd be taking the trouble to keep my location discreet (just in case of any unfortunate targeting "mistake" by [incompetant?] military forces)
What would you be doing if you were in Gaza right now?(regardless of status)

Pirate

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 200

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