RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn??

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 5:50:43 AM

MissMorrigan

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We do that too, we've even purchased videos/books to help further our knowledge. However, regardless of how many times I (he's naturally talented and picks things up just the once) practice, people still say "What the fuck was that technique, it's certainly unique!" ... but no less effective lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
If you just want to play around like we do, pull up some videos on youtube on the laptop, and start tying up your S/O like the guy on the vid... done!

C just learned some basic ties, and the gist of how everything works, and then makes up his own stuff as he goes along.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 6:07:41 AM

crouchingtigress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinem

As a purist, it is quite hard finding sites with genuine shibari, but plenty with 'shambari', i.e. that which is incorrectly passed of as shibari, or blends of East and West in neobari or fusion bondage, e.g. TKB. This is not to denigrate 'shambari', merely to point out misnaming. Give me good shambari over crap shibari any day Virtually all books in English depict a Westernised version, not real kinbaku. The differences are quite specific but hard for the untrained eye to identify. To see the real deal, check out Airsue Go's Five Rings series (www.jogoya.com), in Japanese but copiously illustrated. Video's by Randa Mai and Nureki Chimuo. You can also see good work at www.tokyobound.com and www.suguiranorio.jp

I hear Zamil of Art Sensual, Berlin, is going to the US. I strongly recommend seeking him out as I reckon he's the best in the West when it comes to kinbaku. Over your side of The Pond, Master K certainly knows his stuff.

I honestly don't think your coined expression "shambari" will take off. Not because the basic truth is not there, it is, and you do have a point what most of us do is not shibari.

But what you likely did not realise at the time that you went public with your idea, was that it was hurting the hearts of any one that loves rope who has not been trained in Japan, or with the few masters here.

Having the root word sham, insults people, and as you know from all the feedback you are getting on boards and discussion groups, its not catching on.

Where did you get the idea that folks are trying to "pass off" thier ropework to be shibari? What if they were just inspired by it?

I would invite you to open your heart and see that intellectually you may have a point, but you are hurting people and the community by trying to get this word into our vernacular.

Because we do rope for so many more reasons then copying the masters....in fact in all my experience as a rope bottom or top, I dont recall my desire to do rope coming from the desire to copy any one.

We do rope because...

Doing rope is a deeply intimate act
It is a powerful tool of transformation
It is a sexual and phycological aphrodisiac
It is and expression of art
It makes our partner feel bound and held
It makes us fly....

I ask you, what is a sham about that?

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 2/9/2009 6:36:33 AM >

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 8:37:41 AM

SimplyMichael

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I am curious what separates "real" shibari from what us round eyes do.

This so seems to me to be another case of "it was cool when I joined but sucked the moment you did"

I am sure the Samurai who did "real" shibari thought it was shameful that they tied women up or perverted it with sex.

Frankly, if shibari is going to become another case of who is cooler, it will be one more thing like singletails that will just leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 8:48:28 AM

Andalusite

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I see the distinction as "what is historically accurate" rather than the ethnicity of the practitioner. If I go to Judo class, and try to do a bunch of moves from my Taekwondo class, I'm not doing Judo any more at some point (and my instructor is likely to be annoyed). Nothing wrong with combining both of them if I am sparring, or in an actual fight, but calling the Taekwondo/Judo fusion Judo, and insisting that it really is Judo, seems a little silly to me. Same thing for the Swing/Tango fusion dancers, who mix both frames, and moves from each, into the same song. It can work and be fun, but it's no longer either swing or tango, at some point, but something new/a blending. There's nothing wrong with Shibari/western bondage fusion, if you will, but I usually consider it to be Shibari only if it follows the traditional forms/aesthetics.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 8:55:48 AM

Emperor1956

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FR, conciously stepping around the festering off topic discussion of "My psuedo-Japanese erotic rope bondage is better than YOUR psuedo-Japanese erotic rope bondage."

Dear OP: Come to Chicago and attend SHIBARICON May 22-25. www.shibaricon.com It is the most complete and amazing gathering of rope fetishists you'll ever see. Pretty much non-stop 24/7 rope. Classes, demos, adept practitioners to watch and learn from, and usually rope weirdos on all sides waiting to be tied or tie or both.

And because my little girl has a newly discovered adoration of rope, we will probably be there. She is looking to model and meet folks. Me? I just like the feel of cotton or hemp in my hands when the other end(s) are wrapped around someone I love.

E.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 9:13:43 AM

SimplyMichael

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Sir,

I haven't seen you around but I must admit, I have missed you and your point of view. We REALLY do need to share a beer one of these days!

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 10:44:22 AM

Emperor1956

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Michael, Sir --

It is good to see you around too. I've been obsessed, eerrrr.....no....BUSY, yah, that's it....BUSY with my little girl, and my new company, and all. So I'm here much much less. But I do come down from the clouds occasionally.

A beer sounds wonderful. Travel takes me to Vegas, San Juan and Wash DC...not out to the Golden State, regrettably, this year. You coming east, or to any of the aforementioned?

E.

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"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 11:30:35 AM

NCNutCase

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I’ve been a rope junkie for a lot of years and have gotten pretty handy with what I love… Those who wish to ‘classify’ bondage typically refer to what I do as “Western”. For me it’s simply my artistic expression and I follow the flow that feels natural for me. I suggest other’s do the same, at least to start…

It seems to me the OP had a simple question and all our debate of “what is real shibari” is simply a distraction from giving the OP the guidance they are looking for…

The way I learned, was I found pictures/videos I thought were hot, and I attempted to replicate it. As hours and hours passed, I got a little better at this replication. I also got involved in local BDSM groups/communities and attended a few rope demos. The one that helped me the most, did not teach me a tie, a harness, a knot or anything that simple. It was watching a very competent individual establish a natural flow and go with it.

For me today, I will do ‘the same thing’ many different ways. The body I am working with and the end goal will each push me in unique directions. The most important thing I’ve ever learned was to follow flow. There are many times I want the rope to do something specific, but it just wants to bend the other way. Instead of forcing the rope to do it my way and then dealing with an awkward twist or a rolled knot, I have learned to ‘listen to’ the rope and to then guide it where I want it.

Throughout my process of learning, I’ve grown in leaps and bounds… then hit walls/plateaus. In my growth spurts I spent as many hours as possible putting rope on people and feeding the spurt. When at walls/plateaus I look at a lot of pictures and try tying up less conventual things. A lot of what I’ve learned which works great on people I got the notion to try while tying up many other random objects. Simply learning how rope ‘wants to’ bend or bends best or binds or twists or rolls or etc, etc will give you a huge advantage when being creative with your partner.

One tip, especially when practicing/exploring/learning, don’t feel the need to make the initial ropes to tight. You can usually come in behind the initial ropes and add pressures to lock things up with additional ropes.

Books and videos are wonderful for feeding your creative notions as well as giving very important safety perspectives… but the single thing that I’ve found that actually taught me anything about rope bondage was tying rope.

Best of luck at feeding your passion...

Edit to add - Your more than welcome to look at pics of my bondage at www.blkgarden.com

< Message edited by NCNutCase -- 2/9/2009 11:31:03 AM >

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 1:05:23 PM

Guilty1974

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Look up knot tying. The trick is in the knot. Anybody can wrap rope. I use to keep a rope by my chair and pratice knots, until I could tie the knot with my eyes closed.

Interesting, especially as shibari and japanese style bondage hardly have any need for knots at all.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/9/2009 1:54:50 PM

SimplyMichael

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Guilty,

You and I have crossed swords over this issue before. Serious question, what exactly IS Shibari that makes it so different than what us round eyes do?

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/10/2009 10:05:21 AM

Guilty1974

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
You and I have crossed swords over this issue before. Serious question, what exactly IS Shibari that makes it so different than what us round eyes do?

My point of view hasn't changed a bit on that. I take shibari as meaning japanese bondage as practiced in japan. Anything else (including my own work) is not. That's either western bondage or japanese style bondage. But that is quite irrelevant here.

Whether authentic shibari or japanese style bondage based on reverse engineering, the conclusion is still the same: knots are hardly an issue. When using hemp or jute ropes and tying in a japanese style, you simply do not need much knots except a larks head to begin with. Wrap and tuck will work just as good, if necessary even for suspensions. Add in a square knot (or a lapp knot if you want to please TheHungryTiger) and you've basically got what you need.

Now, the reasoning is quite simple: If the TS would have asked for western bondage techniques to use for tying people with slick synthetic ropes, I would have fully supported your suggestion to learn some serious knots. But he didn't. The TS asked about shibari. I take that as an interest at least in japanese style bondage (as opposed to western style). Shibari uses hemp or jute ropes and japanese style techniques that rely on that. Therefore, your suggestion to start by learning knots is one I thoroughly disagree with. Learning basic anatomy/safety stuff and the basic patterns are much more important than the knot that ties it off, if indeed you even need one.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/27/2009 8:25:43 AM

Esinem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Guilty,

You and I have crossed swords over this issue before. Serious question, what exactly IS Shibari that makes it so different than what us round eyes do?

I guess that sums up the problem, there are an awful lot of folk saying they are doing shibari but who are unable to correctly identify it! BTW, 'Shambari' is aimed at those who claim to be Grand Nawashi Poohbah but are proliferating bullshit. It is NOT aimed at the many people who do Japanese inspired rope work and call it thus. One style of bondage is no better than another. However, there is good bondage and bad bondage, regardless of the label. There is some great fusion/neobari/'whatever you want to call it but, please, not shibari/kinbaku' that deserves a proper name and due recognition.

To me, the way some people use the term shibari is a little like claiming to be a 'bullwhip' expert, yet constantly misnaming a snake whip as a bull-whip. See what I mean? Sounds ill-informed, doesn't it? Same for shibari. It merely devalues your work to misname it.

Anyway, if you want to see the difference, here are a couple of sites worth studying: www.noriosuguira.jp
www.tokyobound.com If it looks the same as Western work, look again at the details as you might be falling into the "All [insert ethnicity of choice] look the same" trap

'Tis a bit like wine, to some it's merely red, white or pink but others could name not only the grape variety but also the year and vineyard.

For the record, I'm quite happy to call my work shambari. This is not because I knowingly pass it of as shibari/kinbaku. It is simply that, whilst I try to emulate true Japanese style, I would no be so presumptious as to claim it's the real deal. I'll wait for others, qualified to judge, to say if it meets the standards.

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RE: shibari- what's the best way to learn?? - 2/27/2009 8:31:36 AM

Esinem

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I subscribe to a very strict definition of Shibari, you must be binding prisoners you captured in mortal combat using swords...anything less is for pussies...

Some mistake, surely?Aren't you thinking of Hojojutsu?

Strictly speaking, shibari means tying or weaving anyway. It only means kinbaku within the SM community. Try asking for shibari books in a high street Japanese book-store. I think you might be disappointed!

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