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RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 2:44:29 AM

ArticMaestro

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But who exactly gets to decide what "matters of public importance" are? Reading this thread, the left seems to be insisting that the Fairness doctrine will do absolutly nothing at all. Why waste money and time passing a rule that will do absolutly nothing? Or does it actually do something with regard to the "matters of Public importance"? Seems at least it would require some Governmnet agency to decide which matters are of importance....Hence things in the media must be examined before going on air....Or else face crippling fines after the fact, causing self censorship.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 21

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 5:49:47 AM

Sanity

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This is all a word game, Rich. You know it, I know it and they know it.

They never win a single debate, ever - so what else can they do? And they can't call it what it is, so they call it "The Fairness Doctrine" because it's only "fair" that they win all the debates...

Ya know?

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RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 6:09:55 AM

kittinSol

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Who are these 'they' you speak of

?

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RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 6:20:04 AM

Sanity

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I could tell ya, kitten - but then I'd have to gag you.

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RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 6:36:16 AM

Owner59

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Few " patriots" are aware or even care that the founding fathers viewed a free(and independent) press as essential maintaining good government and ultimately, our freedom.

They didn`t want government interfering or manipulating the media(s) and even wrote into the Constitution that is was illegal for the government(or it`s personnel) to lie to the people,ie the use covert propaganda against the American public.

They also didn`t want religion and government mixed.

All for good, valid time tested reasons.

All of these things the bush admin either forgot or fuzzed the line that was supposed to separate them on purpose.

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Post #: 25

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:54:52 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

This is all a word game, Rich. You know it, I know it and they know it.

They never win a single debate, ever - so what else can they do? And they can't call it what it is, so they call it "The Fairness Doctrine" because it's only "fair" that they win all the debates...

Ya know?

You mean it's only fair if there's is *no* public debate.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 26

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 10:04:50 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Few " patriots" are aware or even care that the founding fathers viewed a free(and independent) press as essential maintaining good government and ultimately, our freedom.

They didn`t want government interfering or manipulating the media(s) and even wrote into the Constitution that is was illegal for the government(or it`s personnel) to lie to the people,ie the use covert propaganda against the American public.

They also didn`t want religion and government mixed.

All for good, valid time tested reasons.

All of these things the bush admin either forgot or fuzzed the line that was supposed to separate them on purpose.

Excuse me, they didn't want the government mandating a religion. Although in their case it was the "Church of England" not sharia law that was the stick up their collective asses.

Any one that reads the papers written by the founding fathers knows the majority of them were religious and had no intention of removing religion from the public square. *They* understood they were basing a constitution and a country on judeo-christian *values* whether you understand that or not.

Um..."covert propaganda" is a contridiction in terms. Hmmm...covert communication, misleading people through silence. Post your address and i'll provide you a complimentary tin foil hat. Guarenteed to render "covert propaganda" ineffective. You may have to wait while my patent application is approved, however.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 27

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 12:04:55 PM

Owner59

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http://georgemiller.house.gov/propaganda.html

Congressman Miller has joined other House Democrats to introduce legislation that would help put a stop to the use of covert propaganda by the government. The lawmakers acted after a series of revelations over the last year that the Bush Administration has used taxpayer dollars to finance covert propaganda. In two instances, the Administration hired actors to pose as journalists in videos promoting its Medicare and drug control policies. The videos aired on television stations across the country, and viewers at home were never told that what they were seeing was paid for with their own tax dollars.

It`s illegal.

But hey,if you like being bamboozled,please don`t ask the taxpayer to foot the bill,to be lied to.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)

Post #: 28

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:04:05 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The end of our political spectrum that thinks censorship is a good thing is about to be in complete control of the executive and legislative branches of government. Can you say, "Fairness Doctrine?"

...disingenuous TH.

         What, Phil? I was a bit pressed for time when I posted, but it seems pretty straightforward. When elected officials of the left want to make some foolish threats about stifling speech they don't like, the Fairness Doctrine is the club they start waving around.   That they are too short-sighted to see how imposing it would blow up in their faces is just another reason I gave up on that end of the spectrum. (The dark and twisted side of me would LOVE to see it happen. "Oh PLEASE don't throw me in that briar patch.")

        When I see and hear calls for just about every kind of censorship going, or see it being practiced, it comes from the left. The exception is only kind I favor, that being self-censorship by the dictates of common sense. Individual responsibility doesn't fit well in their paradigm. (We have the gray area stuff as well, like yelling "fire" in a theater, or embedded reporters being told not what they will not discuss in their dispatches, but we didn't get very far the last time we talked about the shadowy places where values strangle each other).

          The whole 'political correctness' movement is nothing but censorship. Is there any debate about which end of the social/political spectrum that came out of?

         The scariest book I ever read was 1984 (and not because of the rats). Censorship, by taking away the very words to express dissent or dissatisfaction. That practice is alive and well, and it's the left who have mastered it. Want to see? You don't even need to leave this site. Search up old threads on global warming. Go back a few years.

     There was a time when someone could make a distinction, between the hypothesis of man-made global warming, and the reality that we live on a planet where the climate has been warming and cooling for eons. One could use the phrase "climate change," to discuss the phenomena, without agreeing with the whole "humans (especially capitalist humans) baa-aaad." That time is over. The phrase has been co-opted by those who will tolerate no dissent.

      Let's nutshell this. The liberal solution to most things is, "there ought to be a law." When it comes to free speech, a law is called censorship.

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Post #: 29

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:06:11 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

When it comes to free speech, a law is called censorship.

...and thats the disingenuous bit. Censorship is denying a voice, the Fairness Doctrine absolutely doesn't shut anyone up...it actually takes that idea of freedom of speech and opens it up to those voices that aren't as commercial as some others.

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Post #: 30

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:21:59 PM

Owner59

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The "fairness doctrine" is another weird obsession of the right.

A big boogieman dangled by rightwingy talkshowers, to get the sheep motivated.

It`s a red hearing trotted out to display fake outrage.

The problem is, that it`s these very rightwingy talkers(Rush,Hanity,Savage,etc) who are abusing the right to free speech.

The fairness doctrine bugaboo is just a lame attempt to control information by the rightists.

And kinda moot considering that the market is what`s swinging talk-radio to the center(or to the left if you`re a neo-cons),not a rule.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/15/2009 9:23:13 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 31

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:22:41 PM

ArticMaestro

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How exactly does it do that Philosophy?

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Post #: 32

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 9:29:21 PM

HalfShyHalfWild

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

I understand your gripe.

It has been decided in federal courts in Florida that the media is under no obligation to report the truth.

I use the internet myself. More information to digest and cover, and sometimes harder for me to decide what I think and feel the truth is, but at least I have the source.

Uncle Nasty

I had to go look this up, I couldn't believe what I just read about the Florida federal courts. I know 2003 year was like a horrible year for me but I never heard this before.
I'm shocked, absolutely shocked.

Pardon me but to be blunt, I can't fucking believe it.

Only thing that does not surprise me is the station involved in this fiasco.

(in reply to UncleNasty)

Post #: 33

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/15/2009 10:08:38 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

When it comes to free speech, a law is called censorship.

...and thats the disingenuous bit. Censorship is denying a voice, the Fairness Doctrine absolutely doesn't shut anyone up...it actually takes that idea of freedom of speech and opens it up to those voices that aren't as commercial as some others.

            Ok. I see where we aren't hitting the same page. I used the Fairness Doctrine as an example of the left's default to thoughts and threats of censorship, not as the central front in the never-ending struggle for self-expression. It's just one example of the tendency.

        The law itself stifles through economic pressure. Not very well in my opinion, but it's a threat. What might happen to The View though, if the network was going to have to follow it with something the unemployed and unemployable wouldn't watch. Maybe just two hours of Springer instead...



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 34

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 1:20:53 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArticMaestro

How exactly does it do that Philosophy?

...how does it expand freedom of speech?

Fair question. Let's take a hypothetical to examine it. Imagine an hour long show where i sit in a chair and spout on about, say, the obvious supremacy of Star Trek over Star Wars. i'd have spots where Star Wars fans are denigrated as unpatriotic and damaging to both the economy and the moral fibre of the nation.
The Fairness Doctrine, as currently formulated, could be satisfied by having a printed notice over the closing credits saying something along the lines of, "Star Wars is, to some, a valid choice in their cult SF viewing. There is no objective proof that Star Wars did, in fact, bring down the auto-industry or cause Sarah Palins daughter to become an unwed mother. Philosophy's view is not shared by everyone".
It's not equal time, it's not even right to reply. It's just a way of making sure that no-one mistakes opinion for fact, while ensuring that those opinions still get heard.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

Post #: 35

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 1:24:59 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The law itself stifles through economic pressure.

....er.....but doesn't economic pressure also stifle free speech in a similar way? As many have pointed out, right wing talk radio is commercial. It has succeeded in the market place. Less right wing stuff (c'mon, there's no actual left wing in the States) has tended to fail in the marketplace. Those economic pressures have stilled more voices than any amount of Fairness Doctrines. If freedom of speech is the Holy Grail, shouldn't we be seeing more posters rail against market forces?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 36

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 2:45:46 AM

ArticMaestro

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Would that mean if someone were to say for example, " Hitler was a great guy and a shining example of the best of Humanity. The Jews were dogs and deserved to be exterminated" (trying to be as offensive as possible), a statement would have to follow that Genocidal Nazism is a valid ideological choice. There is no objective proof that Genocide is bad."?

Or would there have to be some sort of Legally empowered Governemnt body that would decide which statements are true and protected and those that are not? And Punish the violators... Some sort of Ministry of Truth and Media, with prosecutorial powers? How can that not be censorship? It would also seem to preclude the existance of live Media.

You produce a show, then send it of to someone to be reviewed, and edited with the proper disclaimers, then it is is sent back and can be broadcast. You are fucking kidding right.....

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Post #: 37

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 2:48:26 AM

ArticMaestro

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Actually economic pressure is the most democratic of all. It doesn't matter how rich someone is, they are only going to buy so much Orange Juice. How you spend you money is the most democratic thing you do. Its your real choices and your real input into the system as to what you want.

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

Post #: 38

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 5:51:12 AM

corysub

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I guess some of those that are so aroused by the large audience shows like Rush, Sean, Savage, Medved, Ingram,...and on and on compared to, "Air America". The libs have always been so great at inventing names or themes..."Air America"..is that suppose to mean that they are the voice of America...the core of our beliefs...jeeez, I get a larger audience shouting out my window!
We see it with the "Fairness Doctrine"...gimme a break...Capitalism IS the fairness doctrine. If people weren't interested in hearing what the conservative talk entertainers/teachers/guru's/mentors are saying...and that includes a lot of liberals who learn from these shows, they would be off the air or bankrupt like "Air America"! Maybe some in this country schooled in liberal dominated education believe this sort or tripe, and put ideology above country...but apparently tens of millions disagree.
The real bold attack on our individual freedom, however, is the neo-lib push called "The Fair Labor Act"...which is fair only to union bosses who use the their workers treasury to support deomocrats. Taking away the RIGHT of a worker to cast a secret ballot takes away our most sacred right for free expression. How is that not "censorship" of free thinking...?? Big brother wants to know everything about you...and does...How much longer until Congress votes to put license numbers on all of our wrists...red numbers for republicans and blue numbers for democrats.

What are the future possiblities.....Pelosi staff member could be working on, for example,

ATTENTION!....
Form two double lines facing me!
Right turn!
Forward march! hup two three for, hup to three four...

America marching to the beat of the Pelosi/Reid "Fairness and Freedom to be Same Act".....

(in reply to ArticMaestro)

Post #: 39

RE: Freedom of the Press | Freedom of Information - 1/16/2009 5:57:45 AM

lronitulstahp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I could tell ya, kitten - but then I'd have to gag you.

*jealous of kittin*

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