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Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 9:23:37 AM

khem

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/8/2005
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In the past, I have fallen into the "Person x is just this way, there's no changing it" mentality with submissives. As a result, if someone has aspects of their personality that are not compatible with my style of topping, I consider them a lost cause. When I have read about training, most of it centers around absurd amounts of fetish play and (from what I can tell) little to no actual behavior modification. I know there are books out there about this, but it would be nice to get some real feedback. When I have attempted to modify a behavior, I usually walk away frustrated and feeling like "this is ridiculous to spend this much time trying to teach something that should be a given." When I encounter this, I tend to fall into a pit of "if I were a better top, I would be able to bend them to my will" or "if they were really into D/s, they would do what I want." (both are not helpful thought patterns!)

My situation in particular is that the D/s has been making a slow death with my current partner because I can't seem to achieve consistency in his levels of obedience. I feel like I'm constantly having to remind him of what I want and it gets to the point of me just avoiding him because I'm exhausted from trying. He responds very well to sexual motivation (well duh), but literally has a 5 second memory. He's my begging slut willing to bend over backwards when I have his balls in a vice grip, but that doesn't prevent him from scoffing if I ask him to do something after. When I have confronted him about doing things I do not like, he usually says "that's just how I am" or goes back to saying that things should be more sexual (and nothing turns me off more than disobedience and pandering for sex!).

So, for the tops, what have you tried that has worked? Do you just give up if someone doesn't "walk the line"?

Bottoms, what has worked for you in terms of training and behaviors?

Do written contracts work for this sort of thing?

Post #: 1

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 9:39:53 AM

MsStarlett

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Joined: 12/23/2007
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I agree. I don't have the time nor the temperament for such nonsense. Possibly because my past experience has never been very 'on going'. Normally, I found a play pretty, ran off with him for a couple of hours then moved on to something else. No time to get bothered by bad habits, so no reason to 'break' or 'train' them to do better.

My Westie is such a perfect match and such a natural sub that he anticipates my needs and most of my desires with out a lot of training or bother. My preferred on-lines boys aren't actually there, so the only behavior modification they need is a touch of protocol when addressing me. No biggy there. Wall-e (the one that left and came crawling back) was very experienced and well trained before I met him, so he didn't need much correcting either. A couple of others who prefer not to be named in public are not my collared boys so they get a lot of leeway.

When one already HAS enough male attendants who don't need to be trained, WHY in the world would I want to bother with a new one who is not a good 'fit'?

_____________________________

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 2

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 9:40:39 AM

darchChylde

Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
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For most, a written contract is only as good as the ongoing intentions and behavior of the ones who sign it. If a submissive/bottom will not wash the dishes without being told several times without a contract, they generally will act the same with one. These contracts are not legally binding or employment contracts, they are only as good a a person's word.

If someone is not compatible after two weeks, they are not generally going to be compatible in six months or any other extended period of time. It's easy to be compatible in the beginning, the thrill is there and all of the NEW. When life becomes more routine is when the real test begins.

You will not be able to change a person who does not want to change. The line "that's just the way I am" means "I have no intention of working to change that part of myself". To me, it sounds like you're with a bottom, not a submissive. If a person is only inclined during sex or a scene, or only when they want to have sex or a scene; no amount of "training" will change them.

You can use a reward and penalty system, but there are some downsides to this:

1: You MUST be consistent with both rewards and penalties. It's not as easy as it sounds, as it can force you to have sex or scene when you are not feeling like it; or it can end up punishing you while you are punishing him.

2: Either of you could become bored at any time and decide it's not worth the hassle.

3: You don't actually end up with a submissive, but instead you have Pavlov's dog. He'll know that if he does certain things or acts a certain way, he'll get his biscuit. This way, you both end up trained.

_____________________________

I'm the man your mother warned you about...
if only to keep me to herself.

I'm a male dominant switch whose experienced as a poly sub to a dominant woman
.
Where the fuck do I post?

Proud Owner and Protector of chyldeschylde.

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 3

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 9:43:06 AM

khem

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Joined: 8/8/2005
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I guess what I failed to mention is that it seems like a waste to throw away an emotional connection without at least trying something. I know people have experience of working through stuff like this, but I'm lacking in the techniques. I do honestly believe that if I presented it to my boy seriously, he would be willing to at least give it a try.

(in reply to MsStarlett)

Post #: 4

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 9:50:20 AM

darchChylde

Posts: 5279
Joined: 9/28/2006
From: Warm Springs, GA but i live in San Francisco.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: khem

I guess what I failed to mention is that it seems like a waste to throw away an emotional connection without at least trying something. I know people have experience of working through stuff like this, but I'm lacking in the techniques. I do honestly believe that if I presented it to my boy seriously, he would be willing to at least give it a try.

An emotional connection does indeed change things, but be careful. When you are dissatisfied with other aspects of a relationship, your heart will suffer too. Yes, he may be willing to try; but if he does not have an honest desire to change for himself (not for you) he will not be likely to have the motivation to truly stick to it. Just like smoking... if a person doesn't want to quit, no matter how much they need to quit or their loved ones wish them to quit; they will generally not have the desire or motivation to stick to it.

_____________________________

I'm the man your mother warned you about...
if only to keep me to herself.

I'm a male dominant switch whose experienced as a poly sub to a dominant woman
.
Where the fuck do I post?

Proud Owner and Protector of chyldeschylde.

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 5

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 11:18:29 AM

LadyHibiscus

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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If you have an emotional connection, perhaps you could consider a mostly vanilla relationship? Or, just move on. It's hard to give up on emotional connections, but often distance is best.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 11:35:24 AM

Wickad

Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
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(fast reply)

To the OP,

Greetings,

I have a friend who has a very similar situation. She has been on and off again and frustrated by her non-live in boy. When they did live together the relationship was a constant struggle for control unless she was leveraging sex to get him to do things. While she is not living with him now, the battle goes on. She loves him and feels he loves her. They get on well and have a great deal in common in the vanilla part of their life. This all being said, she is poly and he isn't wired that way. He claims if they were monogamous then the obedience would follow but I have my doubts. He wasn't obedient when they lived together so I don't see his behaviour changing this time around.

In my opinion, he is looking for some kinky bedroom play combined with an otherwise egalitarian relationship. She claims this is not what she wants. So, .... what to do??

I have councilled my friend to become very busy (ie:create enough space that he would quit using her as a crutch to not move on). She seems to have a number of reasons why she can't do this but it really boils down to she doesn't want to see the relationship die because she loves this man. I have loved a man who I left because of his inability to conform to my expectations of him. Yes, it's hard. Yes, it hurts. But I'm worth more than he was willing to give and I owe it to myself to be true to me.

The questions I think the OP should ask herself are: Are you worth more than your prospective partner is willing to give? Is living in a constant state of struggle and power conflict an adequate exchange for not being alone(possibly)? Do you want more than your lover is willing/able to give? What are you worth?

Wickad

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 7

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 12:04:03 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khem
I guess what I failed to mention is that it seems like a waste to throw away an emotional connection without at least trying something.

My initial response was to say that the cause does not sound promising. Based on the comment above, here are suggestions that come to mind.

One idea is to communicate how the serious the matter has become and why. As for effective communication, I think the book Non-Vilent Communication provides excellent advice about efffective communication. I don't use it enough but I believe in it ;-)

Another idea is that some of these ideas might be covered by topics about leadership, especially in the workplace. In a workplace, I think behavior modification would need to:

(1) identify the behavior in question and why a change is wished (what unwanted result--not punishment but that that creates a need for change--does it create)
(2) identify the alternate behavior and what the desired result would then be
(3) seek buy-in to effect this change and discuss ways to achieve this change
(4) provide support for achieving this change (if he is disorganized, can a class or a book help him, encouragement).
(5) set follow up discussion to monitor progress.

Of course, the classic technique of reward and punishment can help.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 8

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 12:10:56 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: khem
My situation in particular is that the D/s has been making a slow death with my current partner because I can't seem to achieve consistency in his levels of obedience. I feel like I'm constantly having to remind him of what I want and it gets to the point of me just avoiding him because I'm exhausted from trying. He responds very well to sexual motivation (well duh), but literally has a 5 second memory. He's my begging slut willing to bend over backwards when I have his balls in a vice grip, but that doesn't prevent him from scoffing if I ask him to do something after. When I have confronted him about doing things I do not like, he usually says "that's just how I am"...

Placed some emphasis on the relevant lines in the post above because in my opinion, this is the aspect of the relationship that is broken. And if I was judging solely from the attitudes that have been repeatedly expressed by some of the males on this forum, I wouldn't think it could ever be fixed. (In reality, I think there is a chance. But the road to it is hard.)

This guy is a vampire, whether he admits it or not. He leaves you feeling drained and exhausted. He has no desire to please you that is not a masturbatory extension of pleasing himself. "Submission" is a sex game and "service" has no meaning or value when he does not have an erection that needs servicing.

This is why he feels oh-so-submissive when you're giving him the CBT and turns into a completely casual, negligent and disrespectful asshole when he isn't hard. Men who feel entitled to domination are no different from men who feel entitled to any other kind of sexual service from women. At best, they think that their bottoming during sexplay is the only contribution required from them in a D/S relationship, and that in all other respects they will be equals or even dominant. Such men believe that they will decide when and where to do you the "favor" of playing the submissive role; there is no true surrender and no real acknowledgement that your authority has any basis other than his occasional condescension.

You haven't said that this man ever behaved properly or had the right attitude at any point in the past, so I'm going to assume that this is the way "he is", and the way he's always been. It's not as if you had a satisfying dynamic that was really working and then it went sour; you've simply gone as far as your love of domination and topping in and of itself could take you with this guy, and now the well has run dry. He's strip-mined you completely.

Sometimes you need to learn to translate certain statements. When a person says "That's just how I am", what they really mean is, "This is how I want to be and I do not want to change." No gentle and loving behavior modification will work on a person like this, unless you genuinely want to send him to Guantanamo Bay. He doesn't want to submit and he doesn't want to change--or if he does, he doesn't want to submit to you and he doesn't think changing is worth it.

And really, why should he want to change? He's getting everything he wants from the relationship, and suffering no consequences or repurcussions for draining the life out of you like a deadly parasite.

You want a training regimen that might work with this guy? The next time he disobeys you, for any reason, shut off the tap. No dominance, no sex, no conversation, no love, no reassurance, no attention, no ENERGY from you, for a pre-determined period of time.

The next time he does it, the tap is shut off for twice as long.

The third time, for three times as long.

The fourth time, kick him out of your life permanently. Find yourself another boy, preferably one that wasn't raised to be a Tar Baby. And until you find someone that keeps you running in the black, as a domme? Just Lather, Rinse and Repeat.

That may sound brutal, but some men have to have their pride and selfishness broken before they can be made worthwhile partners. If you want to bend certain people to your will, you really have to have a will of iron, and part of that is making it clear that you are NOT equals in the relationship, if only because you do NOT need him more than he needs you and you will NOT put up with or reward his bullshit.

It may be possible, in time, for people like this to learn to really exchange power, rather than attach themselves to a dominant like a leech and suck until they are knocked off with a stick. Until then, keep sprinkling him with salt every time you find yourself feeling tired and depressed or frustrated, rather than good and happy. It's the only way.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 9

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 12:44:13 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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What Shakti said.

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Post #: 10

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 12:59:51 PM

MISTRESSKUMA

Posts: 226
Joined: 8/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: khem

... I can't seem to achieve consistency in his levels of obedience.

I feel like I'm constantly having to remind him of what I want and it gets to the point of me just avoiding him because I'm exhausted from trying.

He responds very well to sexual motivation (well duh), but literally has a 5 second memory.

He's my begging slut willing to bend over backwards when I have his balls in a vice grip, but that doesn't prevent him from scoffing if I ask him to do something after.

When I have confronted him about doing things I do not like, he usually says "that's just how I am" or goes back to saying that things should be more sexual (and nothing turns me off more than disobedience and pandering for sex!).

He sounds like my ex!! The reason is becuase he has no maturity and is only into himself. It's all about him. He will never change so get used to it.

Quit trying to turn your Bottom into a Sub.

He doesn't want it.

He has a different agenda then you and doesn't want the power exchange anyway.

If ya don't want to give him up, don't, but for your sanity stop trying to turn him into anything more than a sensation bottom.

Can you see? He doesn't want it.

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 11

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 12:59:55 PM

khem

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/8/2005
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There have been times when he has been extremely helpful and obedient, but I always feel it is linked in with him thinking we will play if he behaves rather than just wanting to behave. In general, he has a very sweet attitude and acts like a gentleman (that's why I even care enough to seek advice). I just feel like he has untapped potential and I can't figure out how to get it out. I see him doing things for people all the time (myself included) as a form of friendship. I just feel like when I try to make it up to me (and not him) he gets confused. I think giving him an order to do something goes two ways: a) what's kinky about this that will lead to play or b) I don't wanna cause I'm tired/lazy/bored/have better things to do. When it comes from him (without me asking), he does wonderfully. Thanks to the responses, I think I have a better handle on it - it's not that he doesn't behave, it's that it never seems up to me.

Shakisama's comments really didn't resonate with his personality. What I'm talking about it far more subtle that a guy just being an ass. Sometimes it is just a vibe of resent or unwillingness that I get from him that has me confused.

Anyway, comment on...

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 12

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 1:07:38 PM

khem

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Joined: 8/8/2005
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I'd also like to add that I'd appreciate some comments from guys on this.

I know that many men tend to focus on the end result rather than the attitude or process sometimes, so that's an issue too (IE, I eventually did what you said, therefore sulking for 15 mins doesn't count)

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 13

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 1:27:24 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khem
Sometimes it is just a vibe of resent or unwillingness that I get from him that has me confused.

It is not clear to me how much is he into submission--whether he is a submissive you met with whom you have broader basis, or whether he is someone you have met through vanilla circles who showed signs of interest in submission. Here are a few speculations.

Different people include D/s at different levels in their relationship. For some, it affects sexual expression only. For some, it affects romantic expression also. For some it's greater yet.

I wonder if one issue is that he, at the present at least, sees D/s to play a role in the bedroom only. I am wondering what might cause a show of resentment or unwillingness and one scenario that comes to mind is when submission is commanded when it has not been handed over. I wonder if he sees D/s to span sexual play only and rebels when it is outside the bedroom because he has not reached a point where he sees it to extend past the bedroom. I wonder what he would say if asked how he feels about submission outside the bedroom.

I wonder if he has issues with letting go due to societal roles or whatever reason, which is keeping him from being submissive outside the context of play. That is, he can process it when it is just kinky play. When it goes beyond kinky play, he might be having some ego struggle (hey, this is no longer fun and games, am I really letting someone tell me what to do and being weak?).

You say he is willing to bend over backwards at times. I wonder if he has trouble transitioning from an everyday mindset to a submissive mindset. Perhaps for him to act submissive, he needs to feel submissive, which occurs with the power of sexuality but not outside it.

There are different reasons people perform service. I know of subs who see service as a way to please but do not connect with service as an expression of D/s roles. That he does things for others tells me he sees service as a means to express fondness but does not connect with it when told to do something.

To convey my point, let's imagine one opens a door for a stranger as a good will gesture. Then let's imagine a scenario where a stranger approaches a door and says, "I need you to open the door for me." The second scenario will evoke a different response. While you are not a stranger, I use this example to convey the general point about a different response when doing things for someone on own accord, and for someone when told to do it.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 14

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 1:30:13 PM

khem

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I wonder if he sees D/s to span sexual play only and rebels when it is outside the bedroom because he has not reached a point where he sees it to extend past the bedroom. I wonder what he would say if asked how he feels about submission outside the bedroom.

I wonder if he has issues with letting go due to societal roles or whatever reason, which is keeping him from being submissive outside the context of play. That is, he can process it when it is just kinky play. When it goes beyond kinky play, he might be having some ego struggle (hey, this is no longer fun and games, am I really letting someone tell me what to do and being weak?).

I think the above is very likely true. So I guess I'm back to my original question of what to do to change it or whether to even bother? I should add that I did meet him in a kink-environ and he has actually stated that he wants to be "my boy." Although the definition of what my "boy" means, isn't clear. When I have mentioned collars or more D/s, he has always resisted.

< Message edited by khem -- 1/18/2009 1:32:11 PM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 15

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 1:46:06 PM

dreamerdreaming

Posts: 2839
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What everyone else said, especially Wickad and MISSTRESSKUMA.

The guy's a bottom, not a sub. His submission is only around sex, and he likes it that way. Stop trying to make him into something he's not, and doesn't want to be. You will only breed resentment and heartache. If you persist in trying to change him in ways he clearly does not want, it won't work.

You can lead a horse to water but even if you could get his mouth down into the water you still couldn't make him drink. He'll only drink if he wants to. If not, he'll just get all pissed off.

Your needs don't match. He needs a bedroom top, and you need a lifestyle submissive or slave.

The kindest thing to do, for both of you, is to dump him and get on with your life, so that you both can find partners who fit your needs. Why would you want to prolong this mismatch, this struggle? Sometimes love just isn't enough. Both of you are wasting each other's time. All the good intentions in the world won't give you this time back.

_____________________________

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(in reply to khem)

Post #: 16

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 4:08:05 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khem
I think the above is very likely true. So I guess I'm back to my original question of what to do to change it or whether to even bother? I should add that I did meet him in a kink-environ and he has actually stated that he wants to be "my boy." Although the definition of what my "boy" means, isn't clear. When I have mentioned collars or more D/s, he has always resisted.

It seems that at this point it is not known whether he would enjoy submission outside the bedroom or whether you hope he would because you would like to see things work out.

I think it would be a good idea to ask him what his definition of boy is, and share what your definition of boy is. In general, it would be good to compare notes on your respective perspectives about a D/s relationship and see if there is any common basis.

If it turns out that he is interested in submission outside the bedroom but has reservations due to societal expectations, associating with other femdom couples to see other relationship models might help. Attending a group discussion at a Club FEM party provided such an epiphany to a femdom couple I know.

If the issue is maintaining focus about being submissive, Slave Craft is a book in which one slave shares the strategies he uses to maintain his headspace when he sees it slipping.

I am curious why he has shyed away from talk about D/s and collars--I would ask him. It is conceivable that a sub will be less than genuine about what he wants so as to maintain an opportunity to have D/s play. It is conceivable that he knows there is not a long-term match but is giving just enough to keep his outlet there.

The question about whether one sees potential for a long-term relationship is not a binary one. If you think this question is an issue, it might help to ask him where on a scale of 1-10 does he see the potential for this relationship to be a long-term one at the present moment, or what his ideal long-term relationship will be like so that you can gauge how much this relationship aligns with his model for a long-term relationship.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 17

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 6:00:19 PM

amativedame

Posts: 331
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: khem

In the past, I have fallen into the "Person x is just this way, there's no changing it" mentality with submissives. As a result, if someone has aspects of their personality that are not compatible with my style of topping, I consider them a lost cause. When I have read about training, most of it centers around absurd amounts of fetish play and (from what I can tell) little to no actual behavior modification. I know there are books out there about this, but it would be nice to get some real feedback. When I have attempted to modify a behavior, I usually walk away frustrated and feeling like "this is ridiculous to spend this much time trying to teach something that should be a given." When I encounter this, I tend to fall into a pit of "if I were a better top, I would be able to bend them to my will" or "if they were really into D/s, they would do what I want." (both are not helpful thought patterns!)

My situation in particular is that the D/s has been making a slow death with my current partner because I can't seem to achieve consistency in his levels of obedience. I feel like I'm constantly having to remind him of what I want and it gets to the point of me just avoiding him because I'm exhausted from trying. He responds very well to sexual motivation (well duh), but literally has a 5 second memory. He's my begging slut willing to bend over backwards when I have his balls in a vice grip, but that doesn't prevent him from scoffing if I ask him to do something after. When I have confronted him about doing things I do not like, he usually says "that's just how I am" or goes back to saying that things should be more sexual (and nothing turns me off more than disobedience and pandering for sex!).

So, for the tops, what have you tried that has worked? Do you just give up if someone doesn't "walk the line"?

Bottoms, what has worked for you in terms of training and behaviors?

Do written contracts work for this sort of thing?

From a literal psychology stand point.. you will never be able to change anyone's behavior unless they want to change, and they make the initiative. Has nothing to do with tactics or how good of a top you are. If they don't want to change and see the real point in it themselves... they won't change, they'll just be playing a part.

(This is why so much in behavior change & therapy never works.)

_____________________________

Always remember that great love and great achievements both involve great risk.

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 18

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 8:09:07 PM

DominaSusan

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline

I am in agreement with others observations, based on your post, that he is more likely a bottom and not necessarily a true submissive. I would urge that you have a serious heart-to-heart with him to discuss how you feel. There is the possibility that deep down he would like to explore submissiveness or more likely, he is exactly as he seems-a sexual bottom. However, if you wish to modify his behavior you will need to openly discuss this with him and get him on board so to speak. I’m sure that the last thing you want to do is to throw away this relationship but there is a real possibility that nothing is going to change. That said, I’ve been working now for a year to modify my relationship to 24/7 D/s and it’s like two steps forward and one step backwards. Even when both partners are interested and desire a D/s dynamic it’s not overnight.

(in reply to amativedame)

Post #: 19

RE: Training (not the fetishy kind) - 1/18/2009 8:37:38 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

Your question is too vague for me to answer. Is there any chance you can be more concrete? As is, it sounds like he has two zones, the BDSM zone and the vanilla zone. From your question, its just hard for me to gauge if he's being unreasonable in his distinctions.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/18/2009 8:39:20 PM >

(in reply to khem)

Post #: 20

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