RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums"

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Raechard -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 9:09:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou The main focus in criminal sentencing of violent, dangerous offenders should be seperation from society. The death penalty does work in that regards. Now we can also go back to exile and removal of citizenship from people like this. I would be all for that. I would agree with the abolishment of the death penalty if we had that option. We have uninhabited places all over the world that would be suitable for people like this. We could simply send them there and forget about them. Often when people are exiled it is just passing the problem on to another nation. We've had to take on a dangerous sexual predator from Australia, the man moved to Australia when he was six, he is now forty something and has spent the majority of his life there. All the social conditioning that has made him that way is to be found in the place he spent the majority of his life, so why should the UK take him back now? Your other problem with exile is you generally need an empire for that, not sure where you are thinking of exiling people to?

TheHeretic -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 2:07:06 PM)
Rae, I'm just stunned here. You have now completely reversed yourself on deterrence. People would be afraid to get jobs? Do you drive, Rae? Are you aware that if you get drunk and get behind the wheel, you could go to jail? Even if you don't drive personally, how many hundreds of millions do, with precisely that knowledge in their heads? Do they still drive? And let me clue you in on something about deterrence. Some are always going to embrace the "I won't get caught" mentality, but I get pretty good results on getting drunks to sleep in my guest room by mentioning what absolute dicks work for the county sheriff in this town. Your statements on the criminal mind are just too Pollyanna-ish for reply. Is your best argument against executing serial rapists that we'll start executing petty thieves? Bit of a leap, isn't it? All I'm seeing in fact, are desperate leaps to keep this discussion based purely on pathos, with the handholds getting more illusionary with each grasp. Y'know, lots of people grow up with horrible lives, Rae. Awful things happened to them that they carry around, and deal with the scars of every day. How dare you exploit those who have not chosen to become human scum, to defend those who do? That's pretty fucking ignorant and offensive.

Irishknight -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 2:57:13 PM)
Kitten, you quote one of my favorite authors but in no way invalidate my point. Protection of others is a valid reason for executing dangerous predators. How do we sit back on our high morals and proudly state that we didn't execute a killer after he escapes and kills a family of 4 after raping the wife and daughter? If we do so then we say that the killer's life was worth more than 4 others and we show our "moral" support for his atrocities.

kittinSol -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:06:07 PM)
I quoted from Tolkien after coming across it quite by accident last night, as I was perusing the book. It was appropriate to this discussion, because each time I hear people make arguments for capital punishment, they come up with their own ideas as to what should make a capital crime - who are they to decide? I understand your desire for safety, but I would feel no pride at the execution of an innocent man; unfortunately, the death penalty is often a horrible consequence of all-too-frequent miscarriages of justice - one that is impossible to rectify, so definite and final is the sentence. The death penalty is NEVER a good thing.

Irishknight -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:11:49 PM)
I agree that killing is never a good thing but it is sometimes a neccessary thing. It is not something to be hastily done or done on hearsay. Just as in the example I gave of the dog, it is sometimes neccessary to protect others.

kittinSol -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:27:44 PM)
You don't trust the system for a lot of things, but you trust it with such a life and death decision? Look up the last time an innocent man was executed in America, after years and years on death row. It's horribly recent... and it wasn't 'hastily done'.

Irishknight -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:33:35 PM)
If its the case I remember, proof of his innocence was provided and Governor G.W. Bush refused to stay the execution and allow a retrial with the new evidence. I believe that many have already established the fact that GW's wiring is faulty at best. If there is a more recent case of a verifiably innocent man being executed, I am unaware of it.

kittinSol -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:39:17 PM)
And there, you said it yourself! Why would an innocent man's life depend upon the faulty wiring of a fuckup like Bush?

Irishknight -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:41:29 PM)
Kitten, I just found one after that as well. The executed man was convicted (in 1985) and executed on the false testimony of 2 people who are saying now that he was innocent. Sounds like they are responsible for his death more than the system. One claims mistaken identity and the other suddenly has a moral turnaround about intentionally lying to the courts. Having been around the penal system, *EVERY* inmate is "innocent." Just ask them. Locking up the Ted Bundy's of this world is merely waiting for them to escape and do it again. If one of them does, we are responsible for that since it could have been prevented.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 3:59:46 PM)
quote: Often when people are exiled it is just passing the problem on to another nation. We've had to take on a dangerous sexual predator from Australia, the man moved to Australia when he was six, he is now forty something and has spent the majority of his life there. All the social conditioning that has made him that way is to be found in the place he spent the majority of his life, so why should the UK take him back now? Your other problem with exile is you generally need an empire for that, not sure where you are thinking of exiling people to? Like I said, we have many uninhabited islands in the Pacific. Of course when I say "we," I mean the U.S. The U.K. has a few of their own. Of course these islands are generally not ideal places for humans to live. But if someone wants to act uncivilized, we can send them to a place where they can live the way they want.

Dominatist -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 4:28:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Evility quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol A global problem there, slaveboy. The forces of modern capitalism have done well by the super rich. It's probably more corruption than capitalism. If capitalism were the culprit then we would never have seen images from the Soviet Union of people standing in line for hours just to get basic food staples.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 4:33:10 PM)
quote: Capitalism has never fed us, the marketplace takes care of that. Capitalism does nothing more than create paper as a vehicle to speculate on the marketplace. Capitalism and its corresponding greed breeds corruption as in regulators and managers turning a blind eye to all of the risks the capitalists takes with other people's money. What do you think capitalism is? As my macroeconomics professor used to say, "Capitalism is not a philosophy, it's a practice." The "marketplace" is exactly what capitalism is.

MrRodgers -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 5:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: Capitalism has never fed us, the marketplace takes care of that. Capitalism does nothing more than create paper as a vehicle to speculate on the marketplace. Capitalism and its corresponding greed breeds corruption as in regulators and managers turning a blind eye to all of the risks the capitalists takes with other people's money. What do you think capitalism is? As my macroeconomics professor used to say, "Capitalism is not a philosophy, it's a practice." The "marketplace" is exactly what capitalism is. I agree with Dominatist Capitalism is vacuousness and your professor subscribes to the modern propaganda. The marketplace is demand for goods and services while capitalism actually hurts the marketplace by drawing money away to buy paper or real estate...only to sell higher. Called capital gains...whatever that is. There are as many economics professors that will tell you that without all of the speculation on paper that IS capitalism...the marketplace would enjoy much more dermand for goods and services...more jobs and more growth and much better distribution of wealth. Profits from capitalism is something called capital gains which enjoys an immensely immoral tax rate of 15% after a year while those that labor in the 'marketplace' pay up to 35%. Capitalism is immoral prima facie 70 % of ALL corporate profits is from financial transactions...money chasing money...NOT the marketplace. To make it clear...NOT from demand for goods and services. I do not subscribe to the propaganda of calling demand for goods and services...capitalism. The marketplace could perform admirably...without capitalism. And many professors if you read them...will tell you and all of us what capitalism really is...money chasing money and doesn't serve society or the real economy at all. It only serves investors. Its speculation should be taxed and incentives should be in place for the creation of jobs most of which are from small (non-public...i.e. no paper) businesses. Capitalism will be our economic downfall as it most prolifically has begun to show us with the hypocrate/capitalists cum socialists taking trillions in taxpayer money. Why isn't the 'capitalist' on wall street subject to the 'marketplace' and allowed to go bankrupt ? It is because the capitalist is not part of the marketplace. In fact, it will be the so-called marketplace of the labor needed for the provision of those dollars to bail out the greedy, corrupt capitalists. The marketplace is now being forced (taxed) to keep the opulent few...opulent.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 6:03:26 PM)
The marketplace is where goods and services are traded. Now either the government trades those goods and services or private individuals do. I don't know what differentation you or Dominatist are trying to make between capitalism and the marketplace. Capitalism is where the captial is owned by private individuals. Of course, we don't live in a purely capitalistic society and that isn't going to happen without the complete elimiation of government. You and Dominatist are associating flaws and corruption with the word Capitalism. Capitalism in it's purest form doesn't involve anything that you described. Capitalism in it's purest form is the natural way that humans deal with each other. It's unfettered trade, and that's the point of the quote, "Capitalism is a practice."

MrRodgers -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 6:12:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight If its the case I remember, proof of his innocence was provided and Governor G.W. Bush refused to stay the execution and allow a retrial with the new evidence. I believe that many have already established the fact that GW's wiring is faulty at best. If there is a more recent case of a verifiably innocent man being executed, I am unaware of it. Some say we show too much deferrence to those on death row yet we know that dozens if not 100's of INNOCENT people have been on death row...waiting to be executed. There are those that will tell you that innocents have been executed...famlilies compensated and ALL hushed up by settlement. We haven't been smart at all on behalf of innocents on death penalty and for many...just lucky.

Irishknight -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 6:38:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight If its the case I remember, proof of his innocence was provided and Governor G.W. Bush refused to stay the execution and allow a retrial with the new evidence. I believe that many have already established the fact that GW's wiring is faulty at best. If there is a more recent case of a verifiably innocent man being executed, I am unaware of it. Some say we show too much deferrence to those on death row yet we know that dozens if not 100's of INNOCENT people have been on death row...waiting to be executed. There are those that will tell you that innocents have been executed...famlilies compensated and ALL hushed up by settlement. We haven't been smart at all on behalf of innocents on death penalty and for many...just lucky. Then lets be smart about it. Modern forensics is liht years beyond even the '85 case that I mentioned. Why not eliminate any option of the death penalty in cases based solely on eyewitness testimony? Only allow it in cases where testimony and properly gathered evidence come together to help convict these animals. And they are animals or worse in many cases.

MrRodgers -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 6:43:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou The marketplace is where goods and services are traded. Now either the government trades those goods and services or private individuals do. I don't know what differentation you or Dominatist are trying to make between capitalism and the marketplace. Capitalism is where the captial is owned by private individuals. Of course, we don't live in a purely capitalistic society and that isn't going to happen without the complete elimiation of government. You and Dominatist are associating flaws and corruption with the word Capitalism. Capitalism in it's purest form doesn't involve anything that you described. Capitalism in it's purest form is the natural way that humans deal with each other. It's unfettered trade, and that's the point of the quote, "Capitalism is a practice." What you describe is called the marketplace...not capitalism unless you wish to render the expression marketplace...meaningless. Capitalism came after the marketplace with the forced sale of gold to the govt. Investment via stocks or bonds do not create demand...it follows it. Capital is nothing at all but paper the ownership of which has no value but what goods or services I can obtain in exchange for it...through labor. (or what wall street retirement fund I can hit up to make me some real money) Law, medicine or music and say for example...engineering are practices. To be a capitalist...all I need it capital. I need no 'practice' training or expertise...anything. All I need is an investment vehicle. With money I need not hire anybody but buy and sell things. The paper traders trade paper that has NO value at all. It is the 'marketplace' that gives paper including currency its value...not the investor.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 7:01:54 PM)
quote: What you describe is called the marketplace...not capitalism unless you wish to render the expression marketplace...meaningless. Capitalism came after the marketplace with the forced sale of gold to the govt. Investment via stocks or bonds do not create demand...it follows it. Capital is nothing at all but paper the ownership of which has no value but what goods or services I can obtain in exchange for it...through labor. (or what wall street retirement fund I can hit up to make me some real money) No, the marketplace is trade. Capitalism in it's purest form is the ownership of capital by private individuals. Capital is any form of wealth that can be used to make more wealth. It's not just paper ownership. quote: To be a capitalist...all I need it capital. I need no 'practice' training or expertise...anything. All I need is an investment vehicle. With money I need not hire anybody but buy and sell things. The paper traders trade paper that has NO value at all. It is the 'marketplace' that gives paper including currency its value...not the investor. Rodgers; you're trying to equate Capitalism with loony, John Birch Society-esque, paranoid, conspiracy theories. You say capitalists like you think there is a group of greedy bankers in top hats and monocles controlling the economy with nothing but imaginary paper money. Capitalism is not just money changers and the stock market. It's how we trade, how we deal with real property, etc. You're being narrow in an attempt to paint a negative light on capitalism. The marketplace is not an economic system, it's simply trade. It can either be controlled by private individuals or the government.

MrRodgers -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 9:34:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: What you describe is called the marketplace...not capitalism unless you wish to render the expression marketplace...meaningless. Capitalism came after the marketplace with the forced sale of gold to the govt. Investment via stocks or bonds do not create demand...it follows it. Capital is nothing at all but paper the ownership of which has no value but what goods or services I can obtain in exchange for it...through labor. (or what wall street retirement fund I can hit up to make me some real money) No, the marketplace is trade. Capitalism in it's purest form is the ownership of capital by private individuals. Capital is any form of wealth that can be used to make more wealth. It's not just paper ownership. quote: To be a capitalist...all I need it capital. I need no 'practice' training or expertise...anything. All I need is an investment vehicle. With money I need not hire anybody but buy and sell things. The paper traders trade paper that has NO value at all. It is the 'marketplace' that gives paper including currency its value...not the investor. Rodgers; you're trying to equate Capitalism with loony, John Birch Society-esque, paranoid, conspiracy theories. You say capitalists like you think there is a group of greedy bankers in top hats and monocles controlling the economy with nothing but imaginary paper money. Capitalism is not just money changers and the stock market. It's how we trade, how we deal with real property, etc. You're being narrow in an attempt to paint a negative light on capitalism. The marketplace is not an economic system, it's simply trade. It can either be controlled by private individuals or the government. The marketplace is where capital resides...it is its home and the only place we determine if we will take it in exchnage for labor. Like Lincoln said...labor IS capital, without labor, you have NO capital, i.e...it is worthless. Capital is only paper...not labor, not goods and not services. For example, all of that wealth supposedly lost on wall street some trillions is really vacuous. There was no wealth until that paper was sold for real cash to somebody, i.e...regular liquidation of a 401K or IRA etc. Another example...there is always eventually a loser in this 'capitalism' sustained by the last buyer of paper who eventually takes the loses. That so-called 'wealth' on wall street was a culmination of speculative wealth and could have never entered the real market at anything like the 6 or $7 trillion since 'lost.' That money wasn't there. The treasury bailout money...isn't there. We have to get the Chinese, Arabs and Japanese to buy what...our federal paper. Another example...Madhoff was an investor and not getting into the obvious fraud but the last investor paid the previous investors. So just like wall street...the last buyer pays the previous buyer of say a stock or bond. Madoff's only problem is that he was too small to go to the treasury for a bailout. How John Birch and the bankers got into this...now that's looney.

Vendaval -> RE: "Mexican Congress to hold death penalty forums" (1/25/2009 9:51:32 PM)
I am afraid that if Mexico does not have life imprisonment at least that there will be an increase in mob rule and public executions. The open warfare between drug lords or narcotraffickers and the Mexican army has been escalating for a long time. The death penalty might simply make the criminals more likely to kill any witnesses.

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