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RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 8:05:37 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Do you really think it would be any different if consent were not a legal issue? Being defiant, rebellious, murderous and oppositional was all about being a slave in slave cultures.

Yes, of course it was, to a degree. Murder and opposition exits in democracies as well; it is essentially a human trait, not a matter of the environment. Check out the global statistics on homicides for 2005 in "The Land Of The Free" to underscore that point.

quote:

...true dominance is earned. It does not come from dictionaries, powers, titles, ideologies, or legalities.

You would be hard pressed to convince the serfs of medieval Europe or the slaves in ancient Rome of this claim. In fact, you would find it most difficult to illustrate how power, ideology, title or legality does not have a dominant affect on society today. I emphatically disagree with your logic here, even if I generally understand what you are trying to say.

quote:

The question I have of you after reading your profile is what do you do when you bump up against another's limits? Do you ridicule and dismiss the woman, or do you engage and work with her? It also seems in your world that everything is "on the slave." Seems to me that if you are a PIG and the slave responds to you as such, this is on you.

It is unfortunate you revert to derogatory attack. Obviously I've struck an emotional chord with you, and I hope you can find the ability to get past the pain and engage in intelligent discussion once more. Having said that, I will answer your personal question:

When I run into "limits" they are of course respected, as many of whom I have dealt with in the past are submissives—not slaves (note my comment you originally quoted: "those seeking to make a slave must be clever in the ways of catching and plying the soul, heart and mind"). My answer is there. If the "limits" are too extreme and I feel I'd rather not work with them, I simply move on and wish the girl good luck.

If I am enjoying either one of my (2) slaves, they are not allowed limits, nor safe words. They are slaves, and despite the fact a slave lives solely for me, I still grant them affection and friendship, as they are often most deserving of it.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 41

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 8:27:16 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Still, this does not take away from the fact that these terms are being nibbled away at the edges by the BDSM sub culture, making me essentially wrong by popular opinion

Why do you have to be right or wrong? If YOUR definitions work for you and yours, that should be all that matters. Not whether they are right or wrong in the eyes of others.

Thanks Irish. Truly, I care not for the right or wrong of popular opinion. That might be obvious by now. What is true is true, what isn't...isn't.

I guess in the end I am quite religious about the use of terms and names. They are sacred to me, as they mean something, and this trait goes far beyond the BDSM context and into all areas of my life. If words are plastic, essentially what we say is thus.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 42

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 8:45:19 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixslave

amayos, i thank you for the apology. i would like to comment further on the line that most troubled me;

Slaves are sentient human beings. Strip away our humanity and you have an animal. Animals will by nature shy away or resist the infliction of pain. It is our very humanity that lets us override this to serve someone.

Animals are often beaten and go unnoticed in our world, as they have in the past. I have unfortunately seen one too many examples of this with horses and household dogs. Humans, by virtue of their immense capacity for intelligence have become the most vicious predators of all. We often dominate by destroying or altering the natural state of things.

quote:

And yet your ideal does tug at the very ones human enough to feel failure in not acheiving it. i often wish i were more mindless, and yet much that i do for my Master wouldn't be possible if i were.

Mindless? Heavens no. The mind is what makes it fun.

quote:

"A balance of realities and goals is the best i can do."

That is simple, and perfect.

(in reply to phoenixslave)

Post #: 43

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 9:03:33 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
If words are plastic, essentially what we say is thus.

Words shouldn't change their meaning? "It is awful; it is artificial; it is amusing."

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 44

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 9:18:39 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

>You would be hard pressed to convince the serfs of medieval Europe or the slaves in ancient Rome of this claim. In fact, you would find it most difficult to illustrate how power, ideology, title or legality does not have a dominant affect on society today. I emphatically disagree with your logic here, even if I generally understand what you are trying to say.<

I think you are confusing tyranny and oppression with dominance. Don't misread me to assume I claimed that slaves in slave societies were empowered. But that's another discussion.

You said, "In our society slavery is not a "legal" practice, and so those seeking to make a slave must be clever in the ways of catching and plying the soul, heart and mind."

My point is that if you were living in ancient Rome, you'd still have to be "clever in the ways of catching and plying the soul, heart and mind." The legality of slavery is a distinciton without difference where (BDSM) dominance in concerned. (You just can't be tyranical today, but tyranny isn't dominance.)

>Check out the global statistics on homicides for 2005 in "The Land Of The Free" to underscore that point. <

The number of homicides is irrelevent, its the motives that count. A tyrant puts his life in danger and fears for it, a dominant is quite safe and secure in his position.

>It is unfortunate you revert to derogatory attack. Obviously I've struck an emotional chord with you, and I hope you can find the ability to get past the pain and engage in intelligent discussion once more. Having said that, I will answer your personal question:<

I just don't believe in limitless slaves, so I challenged you on this subject. Although it may have sounded like I called you a "Pig," I didn't --- I just gave you a hypothetical. If you believe in limitless slaves and the uncontested power of DOMs, than its axiomatic from there that "everything would be on the slave." I don't see it that way. I wasn't going ab hominem, I was just pointed out that a PIG with power is still a PIG, and a slave will see and respond to that.

>If I am enjoying either one of my (2) slaves, they are not allowed limits, nor safe words. They are slaves, and despite the fact a slave lives solely for me, I still grant them affection and friendship, as they are often most deserving of it.<

What you "allow" has nothing to do with a slave's limits. A slave, a person, an animal, an object, you name it, its limited. There is nothing you can do about it. You cannot allow a slave to hold her breath for one hour and you cannot expect a slave to do what she is not constucted or capable of doing, period. This has nothing to do with whether you grant them affection and friendship or whether they live for you or not. It has nothing to do with slaverly either.

All you can ever expect a slave to do is push her limits. You can expect her to try for you, but you cannot in any way think you control or set those limits. That's folley. Your control ends where limits begin. You can dominate between the lines only. Identifying the lines is the starting point of all D/S.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 45

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 10:44:24 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Well, you are right about one thing ... the dictionary doesn't do justice to the lifestyle.

My suggesting is that we come up with an all new term ... one that can't be mind fucked, using examples ranging from ancient Romans, to fruit. None of us are ancient Romans, and I'm the only real fruit here, thank you very much!

So, in the interest of making new suggestions, I thing the term "slave" should be forever replaced with the term, "servemissive."

Of course, readers are invited and indeed encouraged to come up with alternate suggestions.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 46

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 10:52:59 AM

ZenrageTheKeeper

Posts: 237
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: offline

In the strictest sense, only the owner of the slave would determine the limits of the slave.

However, in the BDSM relationship, there is a little more room for negotiation since, ultimately, it is the slave's choice to surrender all of its decision making to the discretion of the one (or many) that own and use it. For example, a BDSM slave would most certainly not give of itself to an owner if they knew that the owner was going to put them in life or death situations until they die a horrible death. That's just silly.

In the example of this lesbian slave, it is her choice to surrender control to a female Dominant only. However, should the Domme feel the slave needs to feel a man inside her, assuming the slave is actually serious about her responsibilities within the role of a slave, its really no longer her place to say no.

To be serious about being a slave is a serious choice, because once its made, there is really no turning back. A slave needs to be sure that the one they surrender to is one they can truly trust within every situation. Because once a slave feels it needs to say no, the dynamics within the relationship are shattered and the relationship will never be the same.

You, realistically, can't own something entirely if it has the ability to refuse you.

(in reply to TragicallyHip)

Post #: 47

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 10:55:13 AM

la90066

Posts: 177
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Just as I do not call an apple a peach, or a spider a butterfly, so too will I refuse to call a submissive by any other name...

Ah... But what do you call a tomato or a potato?

Sing along, everyone... "You say tomato, I say tom-otto, you say potato and I say pot-otto... Tomato, tom-otto... Potato, pot-otto... Let's call the whole thing off..."

hee hee hee... Sorry, now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 48

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 11:14:35 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I think you are confusing tyranny and oppression with dominance.

Tyranny and oppression are present to a lesser or greater degree in many dominant relations.

quote:

You said, "In our society slavery is not a "legal" practice, and so those seeking to make a slave must be clever in the ways of catching and plying the soul, heart and mind."

My point is that if you were living in ancient Rome, you'd still have to be "clever in the ways of catching and plying the soul, heart and mind."

I am not arguing this, but surely where slavery is legal, it is permitted for one to own another human being and do anything to it you wish. Legality fosters a supportive environment within a society for a particular action. In the slavery context, it does not guarentee all Masters and Mistresses will be good Masters and Mistresses, nor does it guarantee that all slaves will be good slaves. As with anything, there are levels of variance, but my original point was that freedoms to fully and freely make a slave are not supported in our society. Again, a glance at the time-honored definition is important.

quote:

Although it may have sounded like I called you a "Pig," I didn't --- I just gave you a hypothetical.

Uh huh.

quote:

If you believe in limitless slaves and the uncontested power of DOMs, than its axiomatic from there that "everything would be on the slave." I don't see it that way.

I am not a "Dom", as I do not put myself under a lot of the leather mantras inherent with the label. Am I dominant? Yes. Am I a "Dom" looking for a "sub"? Nay.

A slave is a slave. He or she has no control over what they can and cannot do when they are a slave. Now don't use the 'but if you ordered her to pick up a 600 pound boulder' argument, please.

quote:

You cannot allow a slave to hold her breath for one hour and you cannot expect a slave to do what she is not constucted or capable of doing, period.

???

OR holding your breath underwater arguments, too. I don't argue these analogies. We can only do what we can do as mortal animals made of flesh.

quote:

All you can ever expect a slave to do is push her limits. You can expect her to try for you, but you cannot in any way think you control or set those limits. That's folley. Your control ends where limits begin. You can dominate between the lines only. Identifying the lines is the starting point of all D/S.

You are speaking with a lot of good wisdom about a submissive, but not a slave. As usual, the two terms are confused.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 49

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 11:16:30 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
He or she has no control over what they can and cannot do when they are a slave.

Anything a slave can do is within the slave's control to do.

The authority to do what the slave can do however, rests with the master.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 50

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 11:29:14 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

...and I'm the only real fruit here, thank you very much!

Finally, we agree on something.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 51

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 11:34:38 AM

la90066

Posts: 177
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EriaeMelody

quote:

ORIGINAL: la90066

S = Service
L = Love
A = Acceptance
V = Validation
E = Excellence

LOL now that is good

Yeah? Well... Then you might like this one too...

S = Service
L = Love
U = Use
T = Trust

(in reply to EriaeMelody)

Post #: 52

RE: Define Slave - 1/11/2006 11:43:54 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

> So, in the interest of making new suggestions, I thing the term "slave" should be forever replaced with the term, "servemissive."

Of course, readers are invited and indeed encouraged to come up with alternate suggestions. <

How about coining a "servemissive" or "slave" tag-line instead:

"Although scat makes me vomit and contract hepititis, I'll gladly eat it for you."

"Although I'm homosexual, I will be heterosexual for you."

"You can bind me to the chair anytime, there's no need for me to fulfill responsibilities to myself."

"I don't have any inherent nature whatsoever, so just bend me into a Girraffe."

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 53

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 12:29:40 AM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

appears that there are many different definitions of a slave ( I would add in context to verses a submissive). This came to me recently when I came across a Lesbian slave seeking a Mistress only (NO MEN) (always capitalized!). I found this odd. (the same can be said of slaves who say they are straight and will not do same sex). Can a slave be defined by sexual preference? Is this a "limit" as described to me by one? Would this not make the person more of a submissive than a slave if there is such a limit? I believe that to place such a limit on ownership would be to define oneself as a submissive and not a slave. I would prefer to hear comments on this one narrow aspect of sexuality or sexual preference and not open this to a discussion about limits and whether any slave has any. thanks

Slave:

Owned property. The right to a life _willingly_ given.

Property:

My house, my car, my woman (man/exceptions):

What can I do with my property?

I can ignore it! I can tend its gardens, I can trade it for something else, I can sell it. I can deny it. I can enhance it. I can mislead it. I can be truthful. I can abuse it.

My choice. My slave.

A slave doesn't have a contract (other than ownership over it's life - which is transferrable). A contract implies rights.

Anything an owner of a slave gives or allows it's slave is at it's owner's choice.

But then I'm an extremist.

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to TragicallyHip)

Post #: 54

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 7:19:16 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

hmmmmmmmm, interesting concept---i'm not bi and Master likes me just fine...so guess i'll keep reading,lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

Huh. I have to admit I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that in order to be a slave one must be bisexual. Is that what you are actually saying?

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to MsIncognito)

Post #: 55

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 7:28:05 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

glad i went to the end after i read the first 2 posts--Wolfie you always make sense---thank you
M/s is truly such a simple concept,why many seem to not be able to grasp it is beyond me

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolfie648

quote:

appears that there are many different definitions of a slave ( I would add in context to verses a submissive). This came to me recently when I came across a Lesbian slave seeking a Mistress only (NO MEN) (always capitalized!). I found this odd. (the same can be said of slaves who say they are straight and will not do same sex). Can a slave be defined by sexual preference? Is this a "limit" as described to me by one? Would this not make the person more of a submissive than a slave if there is such a limit? I believe that to place such a limit on ownership would be to define oneself as a submissive and not a slave. I would prefer to hear comments on this one narrow aspect of sexuality or sexual preference and not open this to a discussion about limits and whether any slave has any. thanks

Slave:

Owned property. The right to a life _willingly_ given.

Property:

My house, my car, my woman (man/exceptions):

What can I do with my property?

I can ignore it! I can tend its gardens, I can trade it for something else, I can sell it. I can deny it. I can enhance it. I can mislead it. I can be truthful. I can abuse it.

My choice. My slave.

A slave doesn't have a contract (other than ownership over it's life - which is transferrable). A contract implies rights.

Anything an owner of a slave gives or allows it's slave is at it's owner's choice.

But then I'm an extremist.

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Wolfie648)

Post #: 56

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 8:20:40 AM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TragicallyHip

It appears that there are many different definitions of a slave ( I would add in context to verses a submissive). This came to me recently when I came across a Lesbian slave seeking a Mistress only (NO MEN) (always capitalized!). I found this odd. (the same can be said of slaves who say they are straight and will not do same sex). Can a slave be defined by sexual preference? Is this a "limit" as described to me by one? Would this not make the person more of a submissive than a slave if there is such a limit? I believe that to place such a limit on ownership would be to define oneself as a submissive and not a slave. I would prefer to hear comments on this one narrow aspect of sexuality or sexual preference and not open this to a discussion about limits and whether any slave has any. thanks

It appears to me that you are asking if a slave can be forced, regardless of limits, to be bisexual.

Leaving the "limits" debate to those that have the matter well in hand...I'm going to address the sexuality issue.

A slave can be ordered to have sex, or perform sexual acts, with any person the Mistress/Master wishes. Regardless of sexual orientation or whether the act is performed with a same or opposite sex partner, the Mistress/Master cannot force the slave to enjoy the acts you are requiring them to perform.

sexual orientation
n.

The direction of one's sexual interest toward members of the same, opposite, or both sexes, especially a direction seen to be dictated by physiologic rather than sociologic forces. Replaces sexual preference in most contemporary uses.

In other words...You can lead a horse to water, and even if you can make them drink it, you can't make them like it.

Enter discussion "I don't care if the slave likes it or not...."

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to TragicallyHip)

Post #: 57

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 9:03:35 AM

veronicaofML

Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline

Humans, by virtue of their immense capacity for intelligence have become the most vicious predators of all.
==============

OF COURSE!
man is THEE ...ONLY...animal..that eats when not hungry
drinks when not thirsty
procreates when the species is not endangered
and destroys the environment at will..by a whim.

and you just now found out?

oh puh leeze.

am i the only one that knows this?
of course man is cruel.
he is DESIGNED to be.
it's in the dna.
and the rna

so what's the bigger issue?
maturity.
mankind has not left behind his carnal desires or his..killing fields...since caveman days.
and he aint gonna start now.

take care

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 58

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 9:10:20 AM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper

In the strictest sense, only the owner of the slave would determine the limits of the slave.

However, in the BDSM relationship, there is a little more room for negotiation since, ultimately, it is the slave's choice to surrender all of its decision making to the discretion of the one (or many) that own and use it. For example, a BDSM slave would most certainly not give of itself to an owner if they knew that the owner was going to put them in life or death situations until they die a horrible death. That's just silly.

In the example of this lesbian slave, it is her choice to surrender control to a female Dominant only. However, should the Domme feel the slave needs to feel a man inside her, assuming the slave is actually serious about her responsibilities within the role of a slave, its really no longer her place to say no.

To be serious about being a slave is a serious choice, because once its made, there is really no turning back. A slave needs to be sure that the one they surrender to is one they can truly trust within every situation. Because once a slave feels it needs to say no, the dynamics within the relationship are shattered and the relationship will never be the same.

You, realistically, can't own something entirely if it has the ability to refuse you.

I sat here reading everyones responses to this post. And I must say, ZenrageTheKeeper i really like reading your post. You really do know how to state things without actually attacking others thoughts or opinions on the subject at hand.

And you're right you realistically can't own something (or someone) entirely if it (or they) have the ablitity to refuse you.

And as we ll know, when it comes to D/s or M/s relationships, it's all on consentual and non consentual terms. "I consent to have sex with any man you want to give me to. I DO NOT consent to have sex with any women you that you want to give me to." "I will consent to being pissed on. I DO NOT consent to drinking." "I consent to cleaning your house daily. I DO NOT consent to washing windows or scrubbing floors on my hands and knees with a toothbrush." ...... these are just examples. It's all in the I will do and will NOT do when two sit down and determine just to what extent they are willing to do things as a submissive and or slave. And what a Dom or Master will want and tolerate from the said submissive or slave.

It all falls right back down to COMMUNICATION. No one should go into a D/s or M/s relationship expecting the other to read their minds to know limits or non limits. But I guess it also depends on who is dealing with who.

(in reply to ZenrageTheKeeper)

Post #: 59

RE: Define Slave - 1/12/2006 9:44:50 AM

veronicaofML

Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline

To be serious about being a slave is a serious choice, because once its made, there is really no turning back. A slave needs to be sure that the one they surrender to is one they can truly trust within every situation. Because once a slave feels it needs to say no, the dynamics within the relationship are shattered and the relationship will never be the same.

You, realistically, can't own something entirely if it has the ability to refuse you.
==============

i suppose...in philosophy...this works.
not in daily life.
not in MY life anyway.

unless you find 'a' way..to untrain..someone's main core..short of libotomy...there will always be 'a' level anyone will say no to SOMETHING.
including the domme/dom.
we are just human.
i have yet to meet that one person that allow anything at all..including their own death.

dynamics? this is actually 'a' word i never understood..
if it refers to...a set of rules and guidelines..ok.
or if it means that "bonding" thingie..no.

"I"...AM...one person..that "I" am not gonna do just any damned thing for Her. I have MY core values..i aint gonna lie-cheat-steal or kill...
as just some...examples

i have yet to be shown where everyone must be a-certain- type...except those girlie subbies that enjoy giving the dom an oral when he walks in the door...

"surrender"...to a limit...everything in this life has a limit.
even concrete buildings come down.
nothing is untouched.

i call myself slave...but YOU call me whatever ya wanna...
if SHE can toss me out like yesterday's newspaper at will..."I" can walk out...when i wanna.

go figure...we all have our own issues...no matter where ya come from...who ya think yer daddy was...

take care

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 60

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