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ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

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Our current economic situation was decades in the making.  This didn't start with the mortgage crisis, that was just the last economic bubble to burst, and unlike when the tech bubble and other bubbles burst, there isn't another growing bubble for us to hop on to. 

Exceptional post. You definitely get it.


Other than the fact that they're likely to try and reign in 401k's into the treasury - there's almost ''zero'' potential of a ''new'' bubble being crafted on the horizon.

What's equally important for the American people to understand, is the fact that the bubbles did not come about by mere happenstance - No.....they were instead purposely manufactured to supplant the ordinary stimulus that would have normally been derived from an ever-growing, manufacturing-based economy.

Americans need to learn to differentiate between real, legitimate wealth creation, and that of artificially-inflated, bubble-ensconced, asset-price appreciation. As we've now come to realize, asset-price appreciation derived from this latest credit bubble, is a purely fictitious form of wealth-creation that can never be sustained.

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I think that any solution has to come from the bottom and work its way up.  We've spent a lot of years keeping wages at the bottom low, and it's biting us in the ass.  We've pushed a heck of a lot of our population right out of the consumer class.  We've got to get them back into the game.  Pouring more money into the top and waiting for it to trickle down isn't going to work.  Too little makes its way down.

It's age old....

Wages are not rising, but productivity is rising fast. Productivity is the main source of supply; wages are the main source of demand. When supply rises faster than demand, the only way you can maintain the integral supply/demand balance is through the creation of new debt.

That formula only works for so long.....The debt burden is so huge that it’s just a short-matter of time before we will no longer be able to create anymore new debt.

The only way out, is through the re-institution of tariffs, or the complete return to a non-globalized, self-sustaining, economy----completely defined within each individual nation-state.

'' Free Trade '' in its current definition is the culprit here....and unless we can think of a way to instantly raise the living/wage standards to that of first-world nation states, we will continue to ''equalize'' in a downward fashion.


- R

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

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Ah yes, those South Koreans.

Masters of innovation and technology. 

If only we can emulate them.

Joke if you may....would an American automaker guaranteee 100,00 miles on what they produce nowadays????

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The problem is that when any "good paying jobs" are created they promptly ship them to foreign countries where those jobs then become $10 a day jobs.
We need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
It's not "free trade" it's "cheap foreign slave labor."
If we end those trade deals they can't import their stuff into the country at a 2,000% profit.
"Nafta + Cafta = Shafta."
The Achilles's heel for the "globalists" is that they need access to the U.S. market!
That's what you go after!

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The problem is that when any "good paying jobs" are created they promptly ship them to foreign countries where those jobs then become $10 a day jobs.
We need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
It's not "free trade" it's "cheap foreign slave labor."
If we end those trade deals they can't import their stuff into the country at a 2,000% profit.
"Nafta + Cafta = Shafta."
The Achilles's heel for the "globalists" is that they need access to the U.S. market!
That's what you go after!

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ORIGINAL: corysub

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The problem is that when any "good paying jobs" are created they promptly ship them to foreign countries where those jobs then become $10 a day jobs.
We need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
It's not "free trade" it's "cheap foreign slave labor."
If we end those trade deals they can't import their stuff into the country at a 2,000% profit.
"Nafta + Cafta = Shafta."
The Achilles's heel for the "globalists" is that they need access to the U.S. market!
That's what you go after!

It would be wonderful if we could get all the jobs back home in the USA that went overseas.  It's not gonna happen...and it's not a good idea to put in high tarrifs to block the entry of foreign goods.  That would bring on a reciprical move by our current trading partners with whom we have had trade agreements for years.  It didn't work in the past and, if anything, accelerated the decline in GDP growth.  The Fordney-McCumber Tariff Act designed to protect american farmers had the unintended consquence of making it harder for Europeans to sell their exports into the United States and they could not pay their war debts.  Passing the Smoot-Hawley Act in 1930 deepened a bad recession into the depression of the 1930's. 

If you want to create good jobs in this country..than lower taxes the way countries like Ireland did (12% corporate tax) and be friendly to business.  That, unfortunately, is not going to happen with the current President who is anti-business and belives in a "trickle up" economics...whatever that means.  I have never seen anything "trickle up"...!

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ORIGINAL: Archer

Take the pork and pure social engineering money out of the stimulus.
Now this will sound like a countra indicated suggestion but you could keep things like (and I don't think this is even in there)

Solar rebate currently at about $2K you could triple that or more to about $6-8K and include wind and the spike in the solar and wind industry would have several factors of stimulus.
Contractors hireing labor
Homeowners paying for home improvements
Better environmental effects
Money to improve the systems
Reduced costs to both residential customers and businesses

Have the same level of benefits of for corporate solar improvements Something close to 75% of the cost of a system would all but guarantee that everyone who could would go solar or wind.

You could use the same tactic for cars, rebates for electric and hybrid cars making them so attractive that everyone would want one because the cost benefit ratio would be attractive.

Punishment never works as good as positive incentive, why then is it always punitive taxes instead of higher rebates?

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ORIGINAL: Archer

MzMia, the reason they cant simply raise taxes on those leaving is simple, then we would be as bad as so many other countries who had to work on punishment to prevent folks from leaving. In a personal relationship we would call that abuse.
We already have the second highest corporate tax rate in the developed world. Raising them higher only leaves the consumption of the american markets to hold them here.
With an economic stall in spending, that becomes less a factor to hod them here at all.
The jobs don't belong to the nation,r the worker, they belong t the company. If the worker dies the job remains if the country collapses the company remains and moves the job, if the company dies the job dies.

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ORIGINAL: Archer

So we resort to telling companies and people they can't leave the US?
That is what you are saying a law forbidding a company from moving, So much for freedom.

The Irish growth in industry is credited to the fact that they cut their corporate income tax rate to something like 12%.
If w cut the general rate even slightly to something along the median range rather than the second highest in the world, then what would happen?
Likely the companies would begin to reconsider returning to the US.

Jobs are not lost simply for Free Trade, they are lost for taxes as often as they are for "free trade"

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ORIGINAL: Archer

The Irish growth in industry is credited to the fact that they cut their corporate income tax rate to something like 12%.

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The problem is that when any "good paying jobs" are created they promptly ship them to foreign countries where those jobs then become $10 a day jobs.
We need to get out of all those "free trade" deals!
It's not "free trade" it's "cheap foreign slave labor."
If we end those trade deals they can't import their stuff into the country at a 2,000% profit.
"Nafta + Cafta = Shafta."
The Achilles's heel for the "globalists" is that they need access to the U.S. market!
That's what you go after!

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ORIGINAL: Archer

So we resort to telling companies and people they can't leave the US?
That is what you are saying a law forbidding a company from moving, So much for freedom.

The Irish growth in industry is credited to the fact that they cut their corporate income tax rate to something like 12%.
If w cut the general rate even slightly to something along the median range rather than the second highest in the world, then what would happen?
Likely the companies would begin to reconsider returning to the US.

Jobs are not lost simply for Free Trade, they are lost for taxes as often as they are for "free trade"

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ORIGINAL: MzMia

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ORIGINAL: Archer

So we resort to telling companies and people they can't leave the US?
That is what you are saying a law forbidding a company from moving, So much for freedom.

The Irish growth in industry is credited to the fact that they cut their corporate income tax rate to something like 12%.
If w cut the general rate even slightly to something along the median range rather than the second highest in the world, then what would happen?
Likely the companies would begin to reconsider returning to the US.

Jobs are not lost simply for Free Trade, they are lost for taxes as often as they are for "free trade"

Sure Archer, let all the companies go to 3rd world counties and pay people $3 a day that live in
shacks and shanties, then ship the stuff back to America.
Why pay people decent wages when we can get the poor and desperate to work for $3 a day?
 
Then send the "stuff over here", so now we can wait for President Obama to get the stimulus package passed {and eventually he will get what he wants}, so that future generations will be in debt for the next 300 years.

I am not saying "free trade" is the cause of the world's economic crisis, but free trade sure
as hell ain't working.

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

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Ah yes, those South Koreans.

Masters of innovation and technology. 

If only we can emulate them.

Joke if you may....would an American automaker guaranteee 100,000 miles on what they produce nowadays????

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Nope.  Japanese automakers don't, either.  In fact, NO ONE does.  It's one of the most remarkable warranties of any kind.

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ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

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Ah yes, those South Koreans.

Masters of innovation and technology. 

If only we can emulate them.

Joke if you may....would an American automaker guaranteee 100,000 miles on what they produce nowadays????