The American Constitution ?

The American Constitution ? (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 12:56:21 AM)
Is this correct ?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 2:32:21 AM)
I agree with the basic argument that was made. A republic is what our founders intended, and the rule of law is preferable to mob rule. It's why I've always found the promises that communist theory makes to be completely bogus. It promises a limited oligarchy while transitioning to a dictatorship of the proletariat. So you go from totalitarianism under a few to totalitarianism under the many. Of course that never happens, because the few in an oligarchy aren't stupid. Mob rule is much more terrifying than rule by a few. With rule by the few, you have a chance to get a benevolent dictatorship now and then. Mobs aren't ever benevolent.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 4:55:13 AM)
About sums it up. However, we are already an oligarchy. The game is up, the welfare babies have control, the mindless ever wanting sheeple have driven this country into the depths of no return, their will be no return, IMO, outside of complete collapse, which I'm thinking is more likely all the time. I'm not sure the date the US officially died, but it is dead, the body just hasn't cooled enough for most to notice the rot setting in. What will emerge more than likely will look like some new form of fascism, with different groups targeted, different property seized, different reasons for the same old wars. The new boss is the same as the old boss. The welfare babies all got their hands out now, and we all know welfare babies will do anything for that free cheese.

Dnomyar -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 5:51:49 AM)
OK guys tell me what it would be like if you wrote the constitution. It is not the same as when it was written. There are always changes being made to it. What would your changes be???

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 6:03:25 AM)
And both of the parties we so seemingly trust would like to be the next rulers of the not so free society. This flim was a good find Aneirin. I hadn't seen it. I suspect most that see something like this will either say that could never happen here or they'll dissmiss the concept as being the work of the conspiracy theorist. Whenever their is wealth and power there is always someone that wants it all. I suspect that there are those that watch a piece like this and are inspired to be the center of the next oligarchy as opposed to helping preserve the union as it was intended. After all there are so many that are much more suited to think for each of us than we are ourselves. Remember the two moralities... 1. The Morality of Masters 2. The Morality of Slaves Is the end inevitable? Perhaps....perhaps.... Vote Libertarian.....

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 6:09:11 AM)
Change simply for the sake of change? No thanks.....lots of thought, research, planning and debate went into this parchment. Much more selflessness was employed at our inception than is present in todays "Characters of the Beltway"... There was almost to much room left for minor adjustments in order to adapt to evolution and human advance.

Aneirin -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 6:20:05 AM)
Yes, it is an unusual website the film is part of, much of interest on there, and updated daily, if you can, check out the video about the truth about Pakistan's gun market, it is astounding, but anyway that is a different story. Watching the video, myself admittedly not knowing that much about how things tick with the US political system, I was impressed to say the least at the aims of the founding fathers. Impressed in that they were intellects that were aware of history and sought to create something for the US, something not like anything that existed in the world at the time. The immigrants that came to make up the US were to have something better, better than what existed in the countries they left behind. I particularly liked where they had drawn reference for the Roman empire, well, at least a part of it when it worked for the people, perhaps it is they thought to avoid what actually did break up the Roman system. Either way, I watched the video twice, and am glad it is of use here to those that welcome it.

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 6:30:06 AM)
Yes Aneirin, the US and indeed the world was fortunate to have had the priviledge of men such as the founders of the USA. Their risk and sacrifice was great, their vision and intellect unmatched and their hope for greatness devine. I often wonder if they would be proud or disappointed by how we stand now. Opinions I would assume are aplenty.

DomKen -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 6:56:57 AM)
Let's see, the video has 2 major lies. First is the conflation of rule of law with republican government. A Republic is simply a government where the actual rulers are chosen by a larger group. Second is the claims about the transition from the roman republic to imperial rome. suffice it to say that the claims in that section are simply wrong in virtually every detail.

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 7:33:19 AM)
Define you claims.... Conjecture without substance is simply balloon propellent.

YoursMistress -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 7:33:47 AM)
I think the general premise of two types of government, essentially participatory and non-participatory, was good in clarifying the theoretical from the practical theories of governing. The distinction between "rightist" and "leftist" as being non-dictinct was also interesting. It seems to me in the US, the balance between less and more government is, in the "micro" sense, self-correcting in that the balance of power between major parties seems to wax and wane. This film warns that in a "macro" sense, more significant movements in either direction leads to the same destination, which I suppose I hadn't considered before. Thanks Aneirin. yours

DomKen -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 7:48:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Define you claims.... Conjecture without substance is simply balloon propellent. This seems to be in reply to my post but doesn't make any sense. Are you claiming a republic isn't a government where the rulers are chosen by a larger group? Are you claiming republic actually does equal rule of law? Or do you have a quibble with roman history? If so please find a pre imperial rome mention of the citizenry demanding/voting for "bread and circuses."

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 8:07:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Define you claims.... Conjecture without substance is simply balloon propellent. This seems to be in reply to my post but doesn't make any sense. Are you claiming a republic isn't a government where the rulers are chosen by a larger group? Are you claiming republic actually does equal rule of law? Or do you have a quibble with roman history? If so please find a pre imperial rome mention of the citizenry demanding/voting for "bread and circuses." You challanged the contentions as lies, you demonstrate you claims... All I've witnessed at this point is the prototypical political rhetorical. If you expect to be taken serious you could at least validate your position without suggesting to send me to the card catalogue. If your ideals aren't worth your own time why would they be worth mine?

DomKen -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 8:26:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx Define you claims.... Conjecture without substance is simply balloon propellent. This seems to be in reply to my post but doesn't make any sense. Are you claiming a republic isn't a government where the rulers are chosen by a larger group? Are you claiming republic actually does equal rule of law? Or do you have a quibble with roman history? If so please find a pre imperial rome mention of the citizenry demanding/voting for "bread and circuses." You challanged the contentions as lies, you demonstrate you claims... All I've witnessed at this point is the prototypical political rhetorical. If you expect to be taken serious you could at least validate your position without suggesting to send me to the card catalogue. If your ideals aren't worth your own time why would they be worth mine? Once again are you arguing that a republic is automatically equivalent to rule of law? Hint, technically the USSR was a republic. Or are you arguing the details of the fall of the roman republic? Basically the video claims that the Rome became a true democracy and that caused the rise of Caesar. That's simply historically wrong. Caesar rose to power through popularity with the Senate and ultimately died because of the Senate. Unfortunately for the Senate the power struggle between Octavious and Antony went against Antony and that was where imperial Rome became solidified. The term "bread and circuses" is first used in the late 1st century CE in the Satire X by Juvenal and was used to describe the then state of affairs. IOW nearly 200 years after the birth of imperial rome not part of the events leading to the fall of the republic.

xBullx -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:05:59 AM)
Ken, I never proposed any argument; I simply sought clarification on your comments.

JustDarkness -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:14:08 AM)
at all What confuses me is that a republic is lead by law (says the video)..but so are democracies,,not?Germany is a republic..and a democracy. Guess it is not so black and white as they say in the movie. Btw does the voice over also do all these conspiracy video's...sound familiar.

kdsub -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:20:35 AM)
Labels and names...don't you all ever get tired of trying to classify something with a label. The Constitution is what it says... it is a living document that can, has, and will CHANGE. It cannot be pigeon holed and classified because it can change according to the will of the people. sorry general reply not just to JustDarkness

Louve00 -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:28:15 AM)
Personally, I found the clip very informative. I've been asking (including my daughters teachers g) what the real differences are between a democracy and a republic...and even they can only give vague answers. While we do consider our country to be a democracy, by definition of your clip, we truly aren't. And I suspect XBullX is right. If upholding the label of democracy and something like the wild west started to happen, we would discard it as a conspiracy theory. We all have a very interesting habit of interpretting and standing by what we say we are. Hmmm

FRSguy -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:28:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Yes, it is an unusual website the film is part of, much of interest on there, and updated daily, if you can, check out the video about the truth about Pakistan's gun market, it is astounding, but anyway that is a different story. Watching the video, myself admittedly not knowing that much about how things tick with the US political system, I was impressed to say the least at the aims of the founding fathers. Impressed in that they were intellects that were aware of history and sought to create something for the US, something not like anything that existed in the world at the time. The immigrants that came to make up the US were to have something better, better than what existed in the countries they left behind. I particularly liked where they had drawn reference for the Roman empire, well, at least a part of it when it worked for the people, perhaps it is they thought to avoid what actually did break up the Roman system. Either way, I watched the video twice, and am glad it is of use here to those that welcome it. Actually I allways felt that they were incredibly pompus. Most of the people in the Colonies at the time of the formation of the Government wanted nothing to do with splitting from England and it was a rather forced thing... you can blame E.I.T.C. for the resulting split. No one was ever asked an opinion and most of the equal rights that they talked about was bogus and only meant to include wealthy people and was stollen wording that sounded cool from colonial charters. When it became a battle cry of the poor the Gov. had to shift quickly.... its also the second gov. The first one failed miserably so you cant really say the founders were that intelligent because the Gov. they put in place only lasted a few years before it collapsed... they didnt make a Republic at all and I think that the film kind of totally missed that.

BamaD -> RE: The American Constitution ? (2/5/2009 9:44:53 AM)
The articles of Confederation failed because only the states, not the people had power. Thus the founders created the Constitution to "form a more perfect union" and to correct the problems under the Articles. The USSR was a republic in name only just as many dictatorships claimed to be The Peoples Democratic Republic of whatever. It is the function not the name that is important. In function we are still a republic though, unfortunatley in the words of Alex de T'ouqaville (sp) the majority has "learned that they can vote themselves benifits from the public till"

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