Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards

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CatdeMedici -> Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 7:43:10 AM)
quote: Oddly enough, many think the work kinky also means devoid of any morals or standards. Indeed. I am inspired by a response PeonforHer made to a thread about marrieds and cheating--he used the quote above--to which My immediate reaction was "here here"--but as I thought about it, I was stopped in My tracks--isn't that what kink is? The bending, the ignoring of morals and standards in areas that suit our preferences? Are they present? Are they absent, or is it a personal preference to use selective morality. I mean here I am tying the boy to a tree naked to whip him and stick things in his orifices not caring what others think and bashing people who fool around---who has more morals and standards? [8\|]

T1981 -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 7:45:52 AM)
Consent makes the difference, in my eyes. The boy you tie up is okay with being whipped, the spouse who is unawares is probably NOT okay with being cheated on.

Lockit -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:04:01 AM)
Who's morals and social compus are we using? According to some tv preachers, sunday school something or other's, some family memebers, some civic leader's and on and on... who have no right to judge seeing as they are human's with flaws... one big one often times... deceite... we or I may have no morals... but while I am spanking a tied man... you won't find me lying and cheating and doing wrong to anyone and you will find me helping lots of people on a personal level and in the past a bigger social one. Let those that judge such things, judge... I intend to have honor, morals of my own kind, while I suggest others' should stay out of my bedroom. Being a good person doesn't have anything to do with sensual pleasure's I might take if I am not harming anyone. While one is judging the moral standards of many... what else are they doing that I would find immoral? lol...

MsFlutter -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:13:48 AM)
from my comfy chaise in the corner of the room, I submit for consideration the following random thought: Whose morals and standards? Written by whom for whom? Certain parties claim the Bible to be a human interpretation of something allegedly inspired by/received from a deity and, as such, not infallible. Could standards and morals be subjected to a similar lithmus test? Back to the original track.. An absence, no. More likely an abstract of. The name of 'selective morality', while not sounding like one stands on moral high ground, is an apt descriptor of what has gone on for centuries. As our kinky little community, in a burst of fairmindedness, says 'Your kink, not mine', so goes the fluidity of morals and standards. Each of us decide what takes place to make it through the day, to do the next right thing, what will and wont be acceptable to and for those whose power we hold. I'm sure that some basic inventory of morals keeps us off the Most Wanted list and we each craft our own standards within the needs of our lives. From that perspective, they are present - but they appear to be both adaptive and subjective.

slaveluci -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:19:05 AM)
"Bashing people who fool around," as you say, CatdeMedici, is a highly honored and enjoyable pasttime around these here parts[:)]. "They" always do it but "we" never have[8\|]. To your original point, I agree with T1981 that consenst makes the difference. Your boy is apparently consenting to the "kinky" things you two share. "Cheating" is usually seen as something the unknowing partner(s) would not be agreeable to, therefore it's wrong and immoral. I would propose though (and have many, many times here) that "cheating" does not always indicate that one has the morals of an alley cat. I would propose that it is not always a heinous crime worthy of disdain. I would propose that not every situation, scenario or relationship fits into a nice little cookie cutter and one can't ever make the blanket statement that "cheating" (or anything else for that matter) is always, always, always "wrong" no matter the circumstances. But....seems like a lot of folks here have never ever even thought of cheating they're so moral[8\|]. As I always say, wow! The stats you see about cheating are so high. It's amazing that this site seems to be populated with everyone who has never done it (or those who have a time or two and felt they'd committed some unpardonable, worthy-of-disdain sin). I don't say deception or deceit is a positive thing. I do say that sometimes people (covertly) seek things outside their primary relationships for a myriad of reasons and I'm not going to stand up and negatively judge them all in one fell swoop. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that he/she has an "absence of morals." Their morals are just different for reasons I may not know therefore I'll withhold my condemnation. There's too many who are willing to excuse their own "morals," no matter what that involves and too willing to deride others'.....................luci

gumshoe -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:19:15 AM)
Morals and standards in essence is where you give a damn about others. If you couldn't care less about SSC, then yes your actions would be divorced from morality. Another point, morals and standards are different things. When someone tries to impose their standards, their will, upon others it can be immoral. The preacher who promotes homophobia has fewer morals than the Dom/me who plays within the limits of SSC.

junecleaver -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:20:12 AM)
quote: who has more morals and standards? Me. But I get your point. It's just I've been thinking about the whole being tied to a tree and being beaten thing for a long time. I've been talking to people who reaffirmed that it was okay for a long time. It feels normal to me. I rarely find strong negative reactions. Other than my mother lol More of, 'Well...that's just not for me.' What separates me from the guy cheating on his wife? Well...one of us is honest about their choices and lets their partner know where they are coming from. The other one does not.

kyraofMists -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:20:24 AM)
Morality is already selective, even amoung those who are not into BDSM. Knight's Kyra

oceanwynds -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 8:50:37 AM)
Morals tend to be a selective thing for people. In a relationship be it BDSM or Vanilla, people have hard limits. There are people who are swingers, I use to be one, and we always made sure the others partners were fine with it, by talking to the other partner. If they were not, then we consider it to be a 'hard limit' for the other and their mate would have been turned down. I do not believe BDSM gives allowance to tramble over other's hard limits. Our nation has become a band-aid and throw away society. When things get rocky in a relationship, one spouse, if not both, will go and seek a quick fix in another's arms. They do not want to deal with the issues at hand. It just as easy to find a new relationship and have that rose -color sensation spark up again. This makes me wonder if that newness is an addiction..but that is another story. Trees are sacred to me, and it would be wonderful to be tied up to one and be used by Sir. blessings oceanwynds

IronBear -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 9:35:34 AM)
As I have oft stated here in this forum, many countries in the Western World are in theory Christian or Christianity is the official religion. Having said this it should be noted that not all or even a majority of peoples identify with or practice Christianity. Indeed there is a myriad of religions or faiths practiced most of which do not agree with the Christian doctrinal ideals of morality. In fact I shall go so far to say that not all the Christian sects agree with everything another sect states as a high moral code. I do believe that there is such a thing as decency and that indicates some measure of morals or behavioral codes of conducts acceptable to apparently many if not most of society. I should like to offer these concepts from my Codices Venifica or Books of Sorcery (For the Wiccans, my enlarged Books of Shadows). The Measure Let there be a Book of Measures. Give to every measure its hour and its day and its place and that only ~ so the it be binding in the place until another day and another hour comes that it be weighed again and found to lack balance. Who shall make a Measure? Him who will and let him prove it as he will! And if he prove it wrongly? Let another say: “This is not the hour!” If it is not the hour; or “This is not the day!” If it is some other time! And how shall the balance be resolved? By truth is best, but if best is lacking, then by power of numbers, and, if numbers are lacking, then by power of rank be it resolved. This is just for a measure must find its own mean! Therefore let there be a Book of Measures in which is kept all Measures within the rule, except that which is immeasurable, which is beyond understanding, which is within us and where it may be proved beyond doubt! The Rule Who Rules? The Rule, as a rule! How much does it rule? It rules all men, all creatures all worlds! How does it begin? How does it end? There is no beginning ~ No ending! Then what does the rule measure? It measures all things. All things are measures to be taken! How may one take the Measure? Let one hand be upon the infinite and one foot upon the finite, then define by putting the measure in the balance! And how shall one weigh the balance? When both scales are equal thou art true! And when they do not balance? Both are in error!

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 9:36:49 AM)
quote: I was stopped in My tracks--isn't that what kink is? The bending, the ignoring of morals and standards in areas that suit our preferences? Standards? Yes. Ignoring and bending societal standards, not necessarily your own. Morals? No. You can bend, ignore, or utterly annihilate the former without even setting foot in the latter's front yard. To the extent that living a BDSM lifestyle requires the bending of standards, keep in mind that as long as it's a healthy relationship, commonly accepted societal standards have absolutely no bearing or relevance in how you evaluate your own relationships. As long as you're not "bending or ignoring" your own personal standards, you're probably staying true to your own personal morals. I think that once you begin to bend or ignore your own personal standards, you're starting to tread on treacherous moral ground. But as long as the two of you are staying true to who you are and what you believe in, I don't see where morals even enter into the question.

LadyPact -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 9:41:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici quote: Oddly enough, many think the work kinky also means devoid of any morals or standards. Indeed. I am inspired by a response PeonforHer made to a thread about marrieds and cheating--he used the quote above--to which My immediate reaction was "here here"--but as I thought about it, I was stopped in My tracks--isn't that what kink is? The bending, the ignoring of morals and standards in areas that suit our preferences? Are they present? Are they absent, or is it a personal preference to use selective morality. I mean here I am tying the boy to a tree naked to whip him and stick things in his orifices not caring what others think and bashing people who fool around---who has more morals and standards? [8\|] Due to the fact that the original quote was Mine, I feel compelled to respond. Before I begin with My comments, I do want to note that the above was in regard to those who are surprised that Dominant women are not always especially willing to become involved with married men cheating on their spouses. I happen to practice risk aware consensual kink. That includes the play that I engage in and those things it effects directly and indirectly. Should it make Me happy to tie a boy to a tree and stick objects into his orifices (one of My boy's fantasies, btw), it happens to be My responsibility to know what all of that entails. The concept of the scene sounds hot, right? Well, I'd happen to agree. However, there's more to look at than the face value. The first, and most obvious of course, is the boy a willing participant? Do I know that it's not going to harm him in some way? Let's say for the sake of argument that at least on the surface, it won't. Sounds good so far, but does My responsibility end there? How about the setting? Is it in public view? What about the owner of the property where I happen to find said tree? Is there a trespassing issue? A scene isn't just about the players involved. It's about those things around them and those connected to them. In My opinion, that also happens to include others that may or may not have the ability to consent. An unknowing spouse can be counted as one of these. Have they agreed to the harm that may result when the trust in their partner has been shattered? In fact, doesn't this come back to harm the boy I'm playing with as well if his marriage ends over it? Risk isn't always about the activities engaged in during a scene, but also what can happen as a result of this. The fact that I happen to enjoy beating people does not stop Me from being someone who is not willing to accept lying, cheating, or any other distasteful method for anyone to get what they want. There are plenty of players out there. I often tell people to feel free to move on to the next one if My personal standards can't be met.

KataNykanen -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 9:55:49 AM)
Morals and standards ... snicker Sometimes I think kinky folk have more of them than other people. Of course morals and standards have to be something communities agree upon - and of course they differ from community to community. If there is no common base of rules, and standards and morals are rules for living together, the community can't exist. (I'm sorry, I'm a too long time out of seriously talking/writing in English to express myself better, I hope it can be understood what I want to say.) Personally, I think a saying I read here in Germany is a pretty good standard and moral: Love - and then do as you like. Edit: just language stuff.

CatdeMedici -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 10:10:52 AM)
Sorry LadyP, quote note, I gave the wrong credit, did not see PeonforHer's comment nor the quote box and thought it was his--I usually don't do that. [:o]

IronBear -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 10:14:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KataNykanen Personally, I think a saying I read here in Germany is a pretty good standard and moral: Love - and then do as you like. This comes from the three rules of conduct known as The Law of Thelema by Aleister Crowley in his publication Liber AL vel Legis (The Book of the Law) “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.” “Love is the law, love under will.” “There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.”

KataNykanen -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 10:29:06 AM)
Sorry, IronBear, I definitely didn't take it from Crowley. I took it from a German theologist (Unfortunately I don't remember her name, I'd have to ask my mom for that) who in a book about the Ten Commandments (correct word?) and the One Commandment by Jesus kind of re-wrote it this way. In one sentence, as quoted, not in three - and without the stress that Crowley puts upon "your own will" .

windchymes -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 11:06:44 AM)
I'm just going to touch on standards, not morals, since they've been addressed very well already.... I'm kinky, but I still have standards. I've gotten the impression the past few years that, because I'm in this site and identify as submissive, men I've met from here think that I like everything rough. One guy seemed to think my boobs already belonged to him, even though we had just met, because he liked to use them for punctuation, pinching one every so often when making a point. When I asked him to stop it, I got the old, "You're not really a submissive" line. Good night kisses have been "let's just grind faces" instead of something pleasant. On another first date, while receiving a rare really nice good night kiss, he reached up and twisted one of my nipples until I screamed. When I asked why he did that, he replied, "I dunno....seemed like the thing to do!" WTF? I still expect to be treated like a lady if on a date, unless we progress to something else. The standards aren't any different when we first meet than they would be with someone from outside this site.

catize -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 11:35:40 AM)
This is a true story---only the names have been changed to protect the “innocent”. [:D] I met with a man for some BDSM play and kinky sex. After, as we were sitting at my table drinking coffee, he began to talk about his religious point of view which included the belief that sex outside of marriage was a sin. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m28.gif[/image] I was stunned, and made the comment that I had never before been the recipient of wild sex and a sermon from the same person. He said he was ‘trying to bring me to god’ and I rather dryly pointed out he had already done that a half hour ago. So which one of us is the most ethical person here? Is it he? A man who believes it is wrong but does it anyway and then suffers guilt? Is it me? A wanton woman who feels no guilt? The moral of my story: My morality is based on what is true for me. I can certainly be as judgmental as anyone else, but the only person I need determine the right and wrong for is myself.

slaveluci -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 11:54:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KataNykanen Morals and standards ... snicker Sometimes I think kinky folk have more of them than other people. Yeah, unfortunately alot of "kinky folk" are convinced of that[8\|]. They don't. People in all walks of life and "lifestyles," if you will, are moral and immoral and we all judge it through our own filters. The saddest thing is when anyone from anywhere is convinced they can be the moral compass for another. No thanks. I've got my own[:)]...........luci

agirl -> RE: Kink: Presence or absence of morals and standards (2/7/2009 12:25:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci "Bashing people who fool around," as you say, CatdeMedici, is a highly honored and enjoyable pasttime around these here parts[:)]. "They" always do it but "we" never have[8\|]. To your original point, I agree with T1981 that consenst makes the difference. Your boy is apparently consenting to the "kinky" things you two share. "Cheating" is usually seen as something the unknowing partner(s) would not be agreeable to, therefore it's wrong and immoral. I would propose though (and have many, many times here) that "cheating" does not always indicate that one has the morals of an alley cat. I would propose that it is not always a heinous crime worthy of disdain. I would propose that not every situation, scenario or relationship fits into a nice little cookie cutter and one can't ever make the blanket statement that "cheating" (or anything else for that matter) is always, always, always "wrong" no matter the circumstances. But....seems like a lot of folks here have never ever even thought of cheating they're so moral[8\|]. As I always say, wow! The stats you see about cheating are so high. It's amazing that this site seems to be populated with everyone who has never done it (or those who have a time or two and felt they'd committed some unpardonable, worthy-of-disdain sin). I don't say deception or deceit is a positive thing. I do say that sometimes people (covertly) seek things outside their primary relationships for a myriad of reasons and I'm not going to stand up and negatively judge them all in one fell swoop. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that he/she has an "absence of morals." Their morals are just different for reasons I may not know therefore I'll withhold my condemnation. There's too many who are willing to excuse their own "morals," no matter what that involves and too willing to deride others'.....................luci I feel very much the same way. Life, as presented to me, has been chocabloc full of ethical dilemmas for myself and almost everyone I have ever talked in any depth to. I know people that have lied, cheated, stolen..and many other sins ...in various stages of my life I've done them too. The reasons and background were as diverse as the people. None were or are awful people...none were/are devoid of any moral code. With ALL my relationships, whatever they may be, friends, sprogs, family, there are areas I have trust in and areas I don't. I will probably live out my days trying live up to my own standards. It's easy to have them, and fucking hard to live them. I am content to give myself some slack ,but I'm probably a rather bad person....lol agirl

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