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Oaths in service - 2/9/2009 2:30:34 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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The military, where they are in whatever part of the world, doing what they do for the politicians. They have taken an oath of service and we know that oath is a hard oath at times. If the military has to take an oath, in that they must do, kill and maim, should it also be that the politicians have to take an oath of service and there, like the military be held to it. And like the military suffer the consequences if they break the oath ?

If the politicians had an oath as hard as the military, would the military be required as much ?

Seeing as the use of deadly force , i.e. the military, is attributed to failure of politics, surely these people who play with the lives of others, people they don't know, nor maybe even not care about, should be held accountable for their failure in their profession ?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Oaths in service - 2/9/2009 6:39:59 AM

Vendaval

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You raise a good point about the lack of consequences for politicians failing to uphold their oath of service verses what happens to military personnel who do the same.

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RE: Oaths in service - 2/9/2009 8:07:37 AM

Termyn8or

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fr

Typical double standard actually. Had an argument with a jail guard once, he said no, a cop swore to uphold the law, a judge swore to uphold the Constitution. Since when is the Constitution not law ? Being in jail at the time I did not persue this argument much further, rather just get along with the guy. So looking enlightened by his wisdom I had no further problems. In truth though I was not convinced, mainly because he was not right. Why push the issue ? Fuck it.

What about unspoken oaths ? When I get to work once I look at the clock to see what time I got in, I am all for the company and that includes anything that is immoral or ammoral, the chips do not fall on me. If shit hits the fan it is not for me to deal with, I simply did what I was told.

This is all minor in the big picture. You got guys in Iraq burning kids in school, but they are following orders. I think the resposibility for those actions belongs at the top of the chain of command.

Actually oaths don't mean shit. All you have to do is recite the kol nidre once a year and God will forgive you. We might torture you to death, but God will forgive you.

Don't like me mentioning the kol nidre ? Please say so, oh yes. Flame me with all you got, because I will take your fuel and use it myself. That is if you happen to know what the kol nidre is and how it came about. Please don't come to a battle of wits unarmed.

Basically oaths are just words. It is for the person to take it seriously or not.

I don't know how else to put it.

T

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RE: Oaths in service - 2/9/2009 8:25:40 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

fr

Typical double standard actually. Had an argument with a jail guard once, he said no, a cop swore to uphold the law, a judge swore to uphold the Constitution. Since when is the Constitution not law ? Being in jail at the time I did not persue this argument much further, rather just get along with the guy. So looking enlightened by his wisdom I had no further problems. In truth though I was not convinced, mainly because he was not right. Why push the issue ? Fuck it.

What about unspoken oaths ? When I get to work once I look at the clock to see what time I got in, I am all for the company and that includes anything that is immoral or ammoral, the chips do not fall on me. If shit hits the fan it is not for me to deal with, I simply did what I was told.

This is all minor in the big picture. You got guys in Iraq burning kids in school, but they are following orders. I think the resposibility for those actions belongs at the top of the chain of command.

Actually oaths don't mean shit. All you have to do is recite the kol nidre once a year and God will forgive you. We might torture you to death, but God will forgive you.

Don't like me mentioning the kol nidre ? Please say so, oh yes. Flame me with all you got, because I will take your fuel and use it myself. That is if you happen to know what the kol nidre is and how it came about. Please don't come to a battle of wits unarmed.

Basically oaths are just words. It is for the person to take it seriously or not.

I don't know how else to put it.

T

True, oaths are just a collection of words strung together in some semblance of order to mean something considered right above rights, but oaths taken in marriage for example versus oaths taken by a squaddie out there on the battle front carry far different consequences if that oath is broken. An oath breaker, a waerloga in old English in the armed forces is open to charges of cowardice, something that not only affects the oath breaker, but their family as well, as often cowards are publicised. The action for cowardice in a life or death situation which might threaten the security of your colleagues can have lethal consequences to themselves.

Now, I happen to think, that if one who fights on behalf of politicians, the politicians last, or even another resort, the politicians themselves should be required to show the correct thought and actions by themselves taking an oath which carries the same level of consequence.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Oaths in service - 2/9/2009 9:15:18 AM

Termyn8or

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It cannot, due to the persons' unequal standings. That is Earth, welcome. Double standards, triple standards, in fact no standards at all for certain people is our way. It is not right but it is the way it is.

If you apply the words correctly, it would seem that an oath means absolutley nothing, due to broad extremes in interpretation. For example Bush, and I don't mean to start another Bush bashing here, we got plenty of those already in progesss, but he signed the patriot act. That, to me is a clear cut case of a violation of his oath of office. No question.

I am not even going into other shit, nor shit that Obama did or is going to do. They break their oaths every fucking day and there is no question of that. Leadership is a responsibility, they see it as a throne.

You did mention different standards, I agree that it is not fair. Imagine a soldier in Iraq refusing an order to fire a LAWS into a schoolhouse full of people, citing that he had recited the kol nidre within the last year.

Which brings us to this, an oath is nothing but words and in the end words mean nothing. Actions are what means something. Believe me actions have proven to me that these people need to get out and make way for those who will govern without the greed, malice and prejudice of the past. That is not going to happen until we get, at the very least, a strong third party in the US. One big enough and strong enough that it cannot be ignored.

For that we need people with leadership qualities that seem to be lacking these days. We need people who we can entrust with power, and trust not to use that power for personal gain. Know any ?

Today I see an oath somewhat like a driver's license. Without one you obey all laws and do your damndest not to get pulled over. With it, even the worst that can happen is simply covered by insurance. With the license you can do what you want as long as you got the money for the fines.

Without an oath you act upon what is in your heart and your head. Now if we could just find the right people ...............

That's my take on it, an oath is nothing. The higher ups are never called to account for their violations, but the lower downs are.

Damn shame, but true.

T

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