RE: Health measures in stimulus package

RE: Health measures in stimulus package (Full Version)

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MmeGigs -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/10/2009 6:18:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi Well in that case, I hope your one of the first to be told your too old for that procedure. Just accept that your old and going to die and let someone young use that money to get better. After all why should we waste money on someone who is going to die in the next couple years anyway. Cagey is absolutely right. Healthcare dollars are finite, as are other health care resources like staff and facilities. There aren't enough resources to provide all of us with an excellent level of care, so what we have has to be rationed. Right now we're rationing based on ability to pay. The advantage to this is that we don't have to make the tough decisions about how to use our finite resources. With so many uninsured, those decisions make themselves and we don't even have to think about it. There are an awful lot of disadvantages to this system, though. The uninsured are mostly working folks whose employers don't offer health insurance, can't afford it on their own and make too much to qualify for assistance. In 2003, estimates were that the uninsured cost our economy between $65 Billion and $130 Billion in lost productivity due to illnesses and premature death. It would have cost about $48 Billion to insure them. Uninsured people with colon or breast cancer are 50% more likely to die from their disease. Uninsured trauma victims are 37% more likely to die of their injuries. The Institute of Medicine estimates that 18,000 uninsured people die every year in the US because they lack preventive services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care. Maybe if they'd all get together somewhere and die at once, folks would notice and see that this is a problem. I'm figuring that we'll have some form of universal health care by the time I retire. When pretty much everyone is covered we'll have to come up with a different way to allocate our resources. I'm sure that no one is going to feel good about telling someone that due to the unlikelihood of a good long-term outcome we're going to have to limit the services we provide to them, even though without those services we're sure that their condition will worsen. I'm guessing that there are people who feel pretty crappy now about telling someone that due to their lack of insurance or wherewithal, we're going to have to limit the services we provide to them, even though without those services we're sure that their condition will worsen. I don't like either of these things, but I understand that it's not realistic to expect that everyone is going to have Cadillac care. We couldn't possibly afford it. It makes sense to concentrate our resources on the cases with the most likelihood of a good outcome. Age is a factor in this, like it or not. Rationing on the basis of ability to pay is costing us a lot of money. How do you suggest we allocate our finite health care resources?

corysub -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/10/2009 6:19:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis. This is just normal cost-benefit analysis, getting the best bang for your buck. A rational approach, given finite healthcare dollars. "This is just a normal cost-benefit analysis"..!!! Are you kidding..You would want a healthcare system like to U.K. where some government buereaucrat simply adds up the value of the benefits of your doctors course of action, and subtract the costs associated with it. Let's see... Average Life Expectancy (USA) 78.14 years Knee surgery on a 16 year: Cost $8,000/62.14 years of life Permission granted. Breast surgery for a 45 year old: Cost $62,000/33.14 years of life. Permission granted,assuming no other lesions found. PetScan/Cancer Marker screen/chemo for 78 year old: Cost $6,000-$20,000 Denied, allocation of funds to this age group depleted. You think I'm being facious...the link below show studies being done for "cost effective" evaluation of an abnormal mammographic finding and the conclusion as to the "cheapest" way to diagnose patients. Under the "*Stimulus Bill",* and what the hell is this Daschle proposal doing in the Stimulus Bill??.......your doctor, my doctor, will be TOLD what diagnosis technique to use in patient care or suffer penalties. Yea...we are gonna get "change" from the democrats .. and faster and more intrusive into our lives than even the most ardent off the wall liberal could imagine. Can you smell the fires of burning cities? If every man and woman doesn't call and write their representatives than we all deserve the future that the Obama/Pelosi/Reid troika are preparing for us. http://www.ajsfulltextonline.com/article/S0002-9610(06)00560-5/abstract

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/10/2009 6:37:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch Yeah just ducky, if an HMO does that they are evil greedy fucks, even though you can choose a different HMO next year. If a politician does it and you have no where to turn afterward it's "rational". Probably even more rational if the politician checks to make sure the person involved has been loyally donating to the DNC before approving a treatment. Yeah, basically they are greedy evil fucks. I note that you are 38. I have almost 20 years on you. Odds are you don't have a list of pre-existing conditions. I do. If I hadn't been able to switch from a company plan to Blue Cross, I would be either uninsurable, or the premiums would be unaffordable. As it is, I pay $280 a month with a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR deductible, and a THOUSAND DOLLAR drug deductible. Maybe in 20 years you will be fortunate enough to have your medical problems covered under a single-payer plan. I note that I haven't heard or read anything which prevents people from buying additional coverage, if they want.

corysub -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/10/2009 6:49:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata A troubling look at some potential health care implications of measures in the stimulus package... Bloomberg News K. Well, before anyone goes off the deep end over this, read the article carefully. First, it's a commentary, an opinion piece, not a news story. Second, if you look carefully, you will find the writer does not supply any direct quotes from Daschle but takes quoted phrases of two or three words out of context and goes on to fill in the blanks supplying her own interpretation. She also does not quote the relevant legislation directly, only her interpretation of it. I'm not trying to discount what was said, and if it's true then it is something that should definitely not be made law. I'm skeptical because something like this would be a pretty major news story that the talking heads would be jumping all over and this is the first I've heard of it. You would think...huh! You haven't because you probably didn't listen to conservative talk radio today. At least here on the 1210 in Philly Dom Girordano was all over this story and had Arland Spector stuttering! The idiot Senator didn't know it was in the Bill. You don't think MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, et al would say anything negative about the Dear Leaders stimulus...To be honest, I don't think any of those people bother to read the legislation, on their teleprompter and words put only by a 22 year old intern. My bet is that this IS going to be a big story and underlies a hidden truth....most of the democrat politicians who signed off on HR1 didn't read the Bill but just got their marching orders from Pelosi and Reid, and goosestepped into well and voted aye or pushed the button they were told to push. Not one democrat had the cahones to stand up and say..."I think this is a bad bill...lets re-write it...and do what we get paid to do for the American taxpayer..." not ONE! And by the way..it's more than "commentary".... http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:2:./temp/~c1115WnjoD:e262340: Started to edit for spelling but gave up!

blacksword404 -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 1:40:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata A troubling look at some potential health care implications of measures in the stimulus package... Bloomberg News K. Well, before anyone goes off the deep end over this, read the article carefully. First, it's a commentary, an opinion piece, not a news story. Second, if you look carefully, you will find the writer does not supply any direct quotes from Daschle but takes quoted phrases of two or three words out of context and goes on to fill in the blanks supplying her own interpretation. She also does not quote the relevant legislation directly, only her interpretation of it. I'm not trying to discount what was said, and if it's true then it is something that should definitely not be made law. I'm skeptical because something like this would be a pretty major news story that the talking heads would be jumping all over and this is the first I've heard of it. You only hear what the people paying those talking heads want you to hear. No matter which party you support.

housesub4you -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 3:40:32 AM)
Did you see Mccain this weekend? When he admitted that for the six years the GOP controlled everything, they did not care what the Dems thought or wanted, they just fell inline with Bush, (not 1 veto) now he is complaining that the Dems are not willing to make changes (though there are tax cuts, they got rid of money for FDA (cause God knows they are doing a great job now; want some peanut butter or spinach and other upgrades) So basically he said, sure we did it when we where in power, but what gives you the right to do it now that you are in power. He was being interviewed by George Steponoplousousoujhdouszxhous (spelling might be worng) At least Obama, is talking to crowds who are not hand picked, He gave 2 speeches in towns that did not support him, perhaps those elected officials in both parties need to leave the beltway and actually talk to the people they are screwing over. I am not a fan of the bailout, never have been, but I do know that the tax cuts have not been working and I'm willing to try something else. Back to the thread

Cagey18 -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 5:24:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Maybe in 20 years you will be fortunate enough to have your medical problems covered under a single-payer plan. Heck, maybe less, if Conyers' bill passes (35 co-sponsors so far). Maybe. quote: I note that I haven't heard or read anything which prevents people from buying additional coverage, if they want. Yeah, I thought that too, but figured rightwingers might get confused if we brought facts into it.

corysub -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 5:46:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Maybe in 20 years you will be fortunate enough to have your medical problems covered under a single-payer plan. Heck, maybe less, if Conyers' bill passes (35 co-sponsors so far). Maybe. quote: I note that I haven't heard or read anything which prevents people from buying additional coverage, if they want. Yeah, I thought that too, but figured rightwingers might get confused if we brought facts into it. I think what the democrat liberal elite want is pretty clear..not very confusing at all...the want me and the 85% of Americans who have healthcare see a system that works be destroyed in the interest of giving Big Government even bigger control over our lives. Just look at the shit they are trying to sneak into the "Stimulus Bill" that would take away our doctors rights to diagnose and treat patients to the best of their ability and put them all on a "Government Standard". Our government is now a government of losers who want to serve losers... people who bought homes with no money down that they could not afford, people who charged up bills and can't repay, people who no longer want to work their way through college as so many of us did but want a check from me and others to finance their college, even more of a waste when so many of these kids should be going to trade school as they do in Europe instead of going to college and studing "rocks for jocks". No..there's no confusion... it's redistribution of the hours of study, planning, hard work,risk taking that most Americans do every day...to people who don't put in the time and want a free ride from Uncle Sam...hours taken away in the form of the dollars we earn..EARN.. or is EARN a concept not understood by the left?

Sanity -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 5:56:11 AM)
Aw c'mon cory, it's raining free government money. What could possibly go wrong? [sm=alien.gif]

Cagey18 -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 6:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: corysub I think what the democrat liberal elite want is pretty clear..not very confusing at all...the want me and the 85% of Americans who have healthcare see a system that works be destroyed Aw, damn, you caught us. Who squealed this time? quote: people who no longer want to work their way through college as so many of us did but want a check from me and others to finance their college Gosh yes, so much better to spend that money on a useless war.

SilverMark -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 6:55:04 AM)
Well, the good Lord knows we sure wouldn't want to pay for health care if we could start another Iraq war.....why be concerned with the welfare of our own people when we can give tax breaks to the wealthy and allow it to "trickle down'? We all know those guys are So Generous...why look at how well it has worked so far!...Our economy is robust!...foreclosures are at a record low!....there are no job losses!....no worry about manufacuring....small businesses are ultra successful..... Oh wait a sec....I was confused there for a minute.... I am amazed at some and what they find important....If you have no health care(which is happening at an alarming rate due to job losses) you would love a system that helped at least!...but let's ignore those people....we are obviously more important then they are....they are just "poor unfortunates"....We wouldn't want to help...let's ignore them....they'll go away.... I know, we can blame all the ills of the country on the President....after all he has been on the job for 23 days....let's blame congress....we DON'T ELECT THEM!....we can all get together and point our fingers at the other guy....that is always fun and effective.... Take a look around folks....the next unemployed person....COULD BE YOU!....then after COBRA expires...come on back and tell us all about your health care and what a wonderful thing it is to have to go to the emergency room instead of a regular Dr's office....I am sure you will just love sitting there in the waiting room for 3-4 hours...and you meet such wonderful people in public hospitals....and see so many interesting things...

corysub -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 7:42:59 AM)
Your comment regarding tax cuts not working sounds very profound but you don't back it up with any insight. Kennedy, Reagan , and George Bush all used tax cuts and the economy was revived. It seems that people know what they need and where they should spend their money better than Big Government. We are now in an economic recession and while I would love to debate how we got here..yea, Phil Graham and all that stuff..but also Barney Frank, Maxine Walters, Cuomo, and all the members of the Oversight Commitee for FannieMae and FreddieMac that pulverized the staff of the department designated by Congress to oversea those two GSE's when they came back with a negative report. Barney is now tChairman of the committee to question Wall Street Bankers. It's like Al Capone questioning the acts of John Gotti! The democrats have never seen a dollar of a workers earnings that they didn't want to tax witness the new SChip program that will add children with healthcare to the Government largessee (Read taxpayer money) and financed with a $0.60 plus tax on cigarettes. At the same time there is $75 million in the "Stimulus Bill" to foster smoking "cessation". Only in Ameica folks..only in America..because we, the taxpayer allow this garbage to continue. To include a "Healthcare Czar" being created in the stimulus Bil is THE perfect example of political collusion between Pelosi and her leadership, Tom Daschle (Who was supposed to be heading this group but thankfully is back to lobbying, unofficial of course)..and those groups lobbying for universal healthcare. Washington threw the British out and we became an independent country, and now we are seeing a government trying to "legislate" us back into the Empire taking their socialist lead.

Cagey18 -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 8:02:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: corysub We are now in an economic recession and while I would love to debate how we got here.. No debate, really, just simple numbers I'm happy to repeat... quote: yea, Phil Graham and all that stuff. 90% of the problem (and that's former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas)) quote: but also Barney Frank, Maxine Walters, Cuomo, and all the members of the Oversight Commitee for FannieMae and FreddieMac that pulverized the staff of the department designated by Congress to oversea those two GSE's when they came back with a negative report. Barney is now tChairman of the committee to question Wall Street Bankers. Aaannd that would be the other 10%. Just to keep things in perspective.

Coldwarrior57 -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 9:04:26 AM)
Unless you've been following this story very closely, you may have missed the health care provisions that are in the stimulus bill. Everyone knew it was coming, but the federal government has - on paper - established another way of regulating health care in this country. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). GUIDE? I thought that was what his schooling was all about ? These are the same people that brought us the $ 600.00 hammer , $ 10,000.00 toilet. More gov angencies that will have the USE IT OR LOSE IT mind set. http://doctoranonymous.blogspot.com/2009/02/stimulus-bill-health-care.html

Sanity -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 11:09:54 AM)
One little ray of sunshine though, Obama's little stealth socialism provision may well help us out with our nursing shortage. The old folks who die prematurely because "they're too much of a burden on the state" sure won't need nursing any longer.

SilverMark -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 12:34:38 PM)
here you go cory.... http://www.cbpp.org/9-27-06tax.htm take a read....now if you want 150 articles just like it....search....tax cuts vs. stimulus is a circular argument... put 50 economists in a room and they will split 25 to 25.... I hope for all your preaching your job is secure.... remember there are people out there like me who take the retail risks daily as business owners, that are tiring of it and could close tomorrow and not be effected finanacially....and if I remember correctly you work retail.... be careful of what you wish for....

philosophy -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 12:44:32 PM)
FR ...assuming health care resources are finite, on what basis is it right to portion them out? Should money trump every other consideration? Should life expectancy be a factor? Who ought to get that new kidney......the rich old man or the young poor boy?

Vendaval -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 3:09:53 PM)
phil, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? How much to whom and who gets to decide...

Sanity -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 3:26:30 PM)
Germany's National Socialists (The Nazis) worked out a system. Is that the road we're starting down? Just sayin'. And what ever happened to Obama's pledge for more sunlight on pending legislation. Why is there this perception that there is much less sunlight on it? quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval phil, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? How much to whom and who gets to decide...

Vendaval -> RE: Health measures in stimulus package (2/11/2009 3:32:34 PM)
Godwin's Law again and this time only on page 2. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

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