blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong

blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 12:26:45 PM)
Ironic, it seems a lot of subs have been randomly contacting me on this site with one line requests for blackmail - no thanks. Financial blackmail of any kind is not my kink at all. I don't know if the recent flurry of emails are just random or if it's re-emerging kink for many. And for those that are not aware - blackmail is illegal. Anyway - if you take the FINANCIAL element of it ("pay me xx or I will expose you by sending these humiliating pics to x, y and z") and turn it into just erotic button pushing/threats, do you consider it a viable, effective domination kink on any level? I personally have not found interest in it, in its true form, as I consider blackmail on any level to be unethical (and illegal) - but it's clear, some men have a huge fetish for being manipulated in this manner, and I'm always keen on exploring ways to push intense hot buttons. However, this one, I just can't quite get my head around. I think to be done effectively, any kink that involves a "mind fuck," (a threat to do something that seems absolutely real) ultimately loses it's zest the moment a sub realizes you are all bark and no bite. Because of the nature of blackmail, I can't ever see it being more than bark - at least in my book. At the same time, I find seductive, nastily oppressive (in a GOOD way) manipulation to be a-ok and quite effective - but that doesn't come from threats I can't back up, and the most effective threats for some subs seem to be the threat of exposure. This can be a hot button, to be sure, but to actually act on it - even to make a threat feel real by taking a TINY step toward it - requires impacting other people and potentially damaging fallout, which is another no-no in my book. Sure, you can fake out a sub by dropping the envelop of pictures in the mail right in front of him but find a way to ensure they never got out, or you swapped the photos for something harmless, for example. But again - mind fuck one time, won't work again, you can bet. For the subs who eroticize "blackmail" on any level, is there mere threat of it enough, anyway - ie, just talking about it, discussing it, and having it be an empty threat? I mean seriously, do you want, on some level, to be exposed and humiliated? I can't help but think this is just not true and is a fantasy best left in the head. Sure, I can roleplay the hell out of any number of scenarios - but if I am going to be making idle threats to someone, I just feel silly and like I lose credibility. If we both know it's all make believe, I am game. Sounds too complicated to me though, and I generally prefer to stick with the kinds of pressure and manipulation I can enforce - honestly and ethically. Would be interested to hear what others think, though. Akasha

Tavane -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 1:49:03 PM)
Non-financial blackmail is a common theme in net sissy stories, where the sisters/mother/girlfriend takes photos and threatens to show them at school unless the boy obeys her/them. That's probably not illegal, but so common in such stories that it makes me laugh. The idea that your family members would expose you to ridicule which might last forever is just amazing. It is appealing to a sub for a mistress to have some actual control, to keep him in slavery, and I could deal with this in a relationship which had lasted for a long time, so I trusted that we were compatible. There is something impossibly appealing about knowing you are trapped in your role, and I suppose some people have such stuff. A simple contract that the slave acknowledges that the mistress loaned him $50,000 or whatever at a casino, and the debt will be re-paid by him depositing his paychecks into her account, and she'll charge him X for room and board, but that will be foregiven if he does all the clearning, cooking, laundry, and other tasks she desires, and obeys her until the debt is repaid in full. I'm sure there are lots of ways to "enforce" slavery, but can only imagine doing something like that after a year or two of being her slave, where yuu both know you'll probably always be her slave anyway, so it's just added spice. The idea is very thrilling, that's for sure.

subtex -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 1:54:12 PM)
Aakasha, For me the idea of being blackmailed for money is scary and not something I would want at all. I remember reading a long time ago that a Dominatrix (whose ad I'd seen) had been charged with blackmail. I think she had it in her ad. I remember wondering if it was a fantasy that had gone bad. I've heard some wild stories about some of things subs had done. I think there was a horror story thread here. I can imagine it's pretty risky to be technically breaking the law and therefore being vunerable to some crazy person freaking out. Being blackmailed into service is a fantasy that is a little more interesting although I wouldn't want to do that in real life either. It shows up in Femdom fiction a lot, probably because it's a convenient plot device. Maybe some of these were by Akasha I don't know.[:)] I like these stories and I can identify with the feeling of being outsmarted and enslaved in such a way by a dominant woman. I don't have any desire to experience it except maybe in a teasing lighthearted way. I guess the fact that I like the fantasy in fiction does indicate that the idea does touch a subbie cord of being under the control of a woman against ones will. Maybe it comes back to that whole forced or not forced argument. I like the idea of being forced. Still though in the kind of relationship I want, I need to trust the woman. It wouldn't be easy for a woman to pull off that kind of teasing and maintain that trust. That would probably come with time though. Bill

MrRodgers -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:06:22 PM)
I know of one instance that was a real blackmail that wasn't financial. But in your example..the slave coulda walked away from that debt unless there was paper or even still...declare bankruptcy. He was 40something, she 19 in cites across the same state. For months online camming etc. They never met realtime...until... She receives an envelope (P.O. Box) of the pics he had saved. Shows her naked, toys, insertions etc. Letter reads that if she didn't want them all over town, meet him where and when...a small, cheap no-tell motel nearby. She is petrified...complies and upon arriving he grabs her from behind, cloth with a dab if chloroform, drousy, he take her into a room, ties her to the bed. He disrobes her and proceeds to peform oral sex on her and for some time. She now swears she has the best daddydom in the world. < Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/10/2009 2:20:49 PM >

Andalusite -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:10:29 PM)
I'm not interested in this kind of play, but an effective way to make it work would be to send the pictures to kinky people (who the Domme knows and trusts not to give to the wrong person, but the submissive has not met) and have the submissive unknowingly run into him or her and get laughed at/teased/humiliated. Obviously, the blackmail would have to be for something other than money, to keep it legal. It could even be used more than once, without the Domme explaining what happened - either a bunch of episodes in a row, or as a periodic thing.

subtex -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:15:20 PM)
MrRodgers, I think that's an example of blackmail done wrong. Bill edit to say this is in response to the message which now follows this one.

MrRodgers -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:18:13 PM)
Switched back

strangedesire -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:32:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers I know of one instance that was a real blackmail that wasn't financial. But in your example..the slave coulda walked away from that debt unless there was paper or even still...declare bankruptcy. He was 40something, she 19 in cites across the same state. For months online camming etc. They never met realtime...until... She recieves an envelope (P.O. Box) of the pics he had saved. Shows her naked, toys, insertions etc. Letter reads that if she didn't want them all over town, meet him where and when...a small, cheap no-tell motel nearby. She is petrified...complies and upon arriving he grabs her from behind, cloth with a dab if chloroform, drousy, he take her into a room, ties her to the bed. He disorbes her and proceeds to peform oral sex on her and for some time. She now swears she has the best daddydom in the world. Replace that last sentence with several paragraphs about the ensuing legal investigation and messy criminal proceedings, and I'll buy it. To the OP: I got quite a few of those emails when I first signed up. I never even considered replying - at the time, it seemed that they could be scammers as easily as men into things that are Not My Kink.

MrRodgers -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 2:37:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: strangedesire quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers I know of one instance that was a real blackmail that wasn't financial. But in your example..the slave coulda walked away from that debt unless there was paper or even still...declare bankruptcy. He was 40something, she 19 in cites across the same state. For months online camming etc. They never met realtime...until... She recieves an envelope (P.O. Box) of the pics he had saved. Shows her naked, toys, insertions etc. Letter reads that if she didn't want them all over town, meet him where and when...a small, cheap no-tell motel nearby. She is petrified...complies and upon arriving he grabs her from behind, cloth with a dab if chloroform, drousy, he take her into a room, ties her to the bed. He disorbes her and proceeds to peform oral sex on her and for some time. She now swears she has the best daddydom in the world. Replace that last sentence with several paragraphs about the ensuing legal investigation and messy criminal proceedings, and I'll buy it. To the OP: I got quite a few of those emails when I first signed up. I never even considered replying - at the time, it seemed that they could be scammers as easily as men into things that are Not My Kink. Of course those para could be there but real life is stranger than fiction and we can't tell her how to feel.

LadyConstanze -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 3:19:37 PM)
Considering the whole legal problems that could follow, possibly not such a great idea. The "But your honour, he really wanted me to do it, it was all just kinky" might simply not cut it.

beeble -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 5:45:27 PM)
quote: Tavane wrote: Non-financial blackmail is a common theme in net sissy stories, where the sisters/mother/girlfriend takes photos and threatens to show them at school unless the boy obeys her/them. That's probably not illegal [...] It is illegal. Blackmail is the threat to reveal damaging information unless some demand is met. The demand doesn't have to be financial: for example, a threat to publish compromising pictures of somebody unless they had sex with you would also be blackmail. Extortion is similar but is the threat to do something illegal unless some demand is met. For example, it would be extortion to threaten to break the blackmailer's legs unless they surrendered the photos. Technically, if the threat were to reveal false but damaging information, which would constitute slander, then the offence committed would be extortion rather than blackmail. quote: A simple contract that the slave acknowledges that the mistress loaned him $50,000 or whatever at a casino, and the debt will be re-paid by him depositing his paychecks into her account, and she'll charge him X for room and board, but that will be foregiven if he does all the clearning, cooking, laundry, and other tasks she desires, and obeys her until the debt is repaid in full. This is known as `debt bondage' which is defined by the UN to be a form of slavery. It is illegal under international law and specifically illegal under US law and, I would imagine, illegal in most sane jurisdictions. A contract to perform an illegal act is null and void. For example, you cannot sue a hitman for breach of contract if he takes your money and doesn't make the hit (though, of course, even if you could sue, you'd be an idiot to try to). quote: I'm sure there are lots of ways to "enforce" slavery [...] There is no legal way to enforce slavery because slavery is illegal. beeble.

BondageBarbieX -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 5:54:40 PM)
I think blackmail is illegal so i would not touch that scene with a 10 foot pole..the person could actually turn you in to the cops if they wanted to.

beeble -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 6:01:05 PM)
quote: MrRodgers wrote: He was 40something, she 19 in cites across the same state. For months online camming etc. They never met realtime...until... She receives an envelope (P.O. Box) of the pics he had saved. Shows her naked, toys, insertions etc. Letter reads that if she didn't want them all over town, meet him where and when...a small, cheap no-tell motel nearby. She is petrified...complies and upon arriving he grabs her from behind, cloth with a dab if chloroform, drousy, he take her into a room, ties her to the bed. He disrobes her and proceeds to peform oral sex on her and for some time. She now swears she has the best daddydom in the world. I'm strongly disinclined to believe your story but let's take it at face value. Him first. Safe? No. The difference between an anaesthetic dose of chloroform and a never-wake-up dose isn't a lot. Sane? No. The blackmail and the rape were criminal acts and, had she gone to the police at any time afterwards (subject to the statute of limitations) he'd be likely to be spending a loooong time in jail. Consensual? No. Duress and incapacitation. And her. Safe? No. Going to meet blackmailer in dodgy location with no backup. Sane? No. Dating a blackmailing rapist. Consensual? No. Duress and incapacitation. Note that blackmail only requires the threat that the pictures will be revealed. I'm not sure if that threat has to be credible but that's moot since, in your story, the woman believed the threat. beeble.

beeble -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 6:12:14 PM)
quote: AAkasha wrote: Anyway - if you take the FINANCIAL element of it ("pay me xx or I will expose you by sending these humiliating pics to x, y and z") and turn it into just erotic button pushing/threats, do you consider it a viable, effective domination kink on any level? I personally have not found interest in it, in its true form, as I consider blackmail on any level to be unethical (and illegal)[...] It's illegal. There's no way to do it right because as soon as you blackmail your sub, he or she can call the cops on you. quote: I think to be done effectively, any kink that involves a "mind fuck," (a threat to do something that seems absolutely real) ultimately loses it's zest the moment a sub realizes you are all bark and no bite. Because of the nature of blackmail, I can't ever see it being more than bark - at least in my book. Close but no cigar. As soon as you threaten consequences unless some demand is met, you are committing the offence of blackmail. You show him an envelope of pictures and say they get posted to his mum if he doesn't do X? That's already blackmail, regardless of what you actually do (or might wish to claim in court that you intended to do) if he doesn't do X. The only grey area is that I'm not sure whether the threat has to be credible. If you told him that, unless he did X, the field for the 2010 Super Bowl would be painted with a picture of him sucking cock, my guess is that it probably wouldn't constitute blackmail. But it probably wouldn't satisfy his fetish, either. beeble.

iSyllogism -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 6:39:20 PM)
This is a personal favorite fantasy to play around with, I've never had any direct experience with it, because of some of the reasons stated above, but nevertheless it SEEMS possible to set something up that could be pretty powerful. I tend to agree that anything involving money becomes instantly non-kinky and just ruins the whole scenario. Where it shines is enhancing the mind fuck, which really is the parent idea of blackmail in a kink context. The threat of sharing embarrassing photos, knowledge or the threat of a certain scenario could all be pretty powerful. In its most basic form, its a way of controlling another. Do this or I'll do that. Is it really so different from the treat of a physical punishment? Or a humiliation punishment? To really be exciting in a kink way it would have to be the kind of thing that isn't going to actually ruin someones life, and obviously requires quite a bit of trust. It is interesting that no matter how bad a person got themselves in, there really would be ways out, like the aforementioned bankruptcy or just the fact that it's against the law for someone to blackmail you so the law would be on your side. On a personal level, if the situation was right, I would love to have given over some kind of powerful threat evidence or secret that she controls and gets to use against me, especially when used in the context of pushing me to be / serve better.

marie2 -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 7:02:54 PM)
Well, I'm a person with a blackmail kink, and I've spoken a couple of times on this topic before, but people usually come by and go absolutely apeshit over it speaking about how immoral and how illegal and how disgusting it is. But when you get right down to it, it's no different than someone wanting a rape scene or a kidnap and interogation scene, or even the more common stuff such as a beating, which would be considered assault in the non-consentual world. Rape, kidnapping, assault; they're all illegal and immoral too, yet when we talk about having bdsm-related fantasies of these things, it doesn't meet the same level of judgement, or lack of understanding as the blackmail thing. From a realistic point of view, I don't think the blackmail (in THIS context as a consentual involvement) can be any more authentic than a "play rape" scene, or an interogation or kidnapping scene, but it's something that some people do want to explore, and some try to replicate it and get as close to those feelings as they can. For me, it wouldn't be about being blackmailed for money, it would be more about the person having information or something humiliating on me, and that would be used to garner my complete obedience. I realize this isn't a likely scenario that will ever come to fruition, but the thought of it is a huge turn-on. I think, for myself, part of the turn-on would be that it gets as close as possible to being forced, or as close as possible to non-consent; feeling like I have no choice, and having my obedience stolen from me by someone I despise for victimizing me. It would cause a certain inner conflict that would charge me emotionally. For me it's just one of those deep dark fantasies, that will remain such, and I wouldn't actually want to have a relationship based on blackmail, but I can understand how some people do try to realize these perverted desires. Again, if you think about all the common fantasies of illegal acts that we see around here, (rape, beatings, kidnap etc) blackmail falls into the same line really, and they all have the same common threads---non-consentual, immoral, contemptuous, disgusting, unthinkable etc. I think that's where the heart of it lies. Sick fuckers? I know I am. :)

ShaktiSama -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/10/2009 8:02:59 PM)
Just to chime in with a "me too"--I have gotten a few blackmail requests as well. I think it's just one of the few ways that some men can imagine a woman genuinely coercing or forcing them. Not my fantasy, really. I prefer to torment my victim in other ways.

beeble -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/11/2009 2:34:08 AM)
quote: marie2 wrote: Well, I'm a person with a blackmail kink, and I've spoken a couple of times on this topic before, but people usually come by and go absolutely apeshit over it speaking about how immoral and how illegal and how disgusting it is. But when you get right down to it, it's no different than someone wanting a rape scene or a kidnap and interogation scene, or even the more common stuff such as a beating, which would be considered assault in the non-consentual world. There's a clear difference between blackmail, on the one hand, and rape and kidnap on the other. If I consent to somebody having sex with me, it's not actually rape. If I consent to somebody tying me up and taking me away in their car, it's not kidnap. If something goes wrong and it ends up in court, consent is a defence (albeit that convincing the jury that consent existed might be difficult). But consent is irrelevant to the crime of blackmail: as soon as somebody makes the threat, they're committing blackmail. If the matter came to court, there would be no defence. That kind of thing puts the dominant at a lot of risk. Beating is similar in that, under English law at least, one cannot consent to being assaulted. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any convictions outside pretty extreme cases and I think the legal system and the population at large are much more aware of the idea that people enjoy consensually spanking each other than they are aware that people might consent to this kind of blackmail. I think blackmail is much more dangerous for the dominant than `ordinary' beatings. There's also the issue of third-party consent. The threat inherent in blackmail is to reveal information to some third party but, almost by construction, that person has not consented to being a party to your BDSM activities. After all, asking somebody, `Would it be OK if I showed you incriminating photos of Fred at some point in the future, if he doesn't comply with my demands,' is itself a fairly incriminating act, and, depending on that person's imagination, might even be more incriminating than the photos themselves. beeble. [Edited to fix borken quoting.]

marie2 -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/11/2009 3:46:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beeble quote: marie2 wrote: Well, I'm a person with a blackmail kink, and I've spoken a couple of times on this topic before, but people usually come by and go absolutely apeshit over it speaking about how immoral and how illegal and how disgusting it is. But when you get right down to it, it's no different than someone wanting a rape scene or a kidnap and interogation scene, or even the more common stuff such as a beating, which would be considered assault in the non-consentual world. There's a clear difference between blackmail, on the one hand, and rape and kidnap on the other. If I consent to somebody having sex with me, it's not actually rape. If I consent to somebody tying me up and taking me away in their car, it's not kidnap. If something goes wrong and it ends up in court, consent is a defence (albeit that convincing the jury that consent existed might be difficult). But consent is irrelevant to the crime of blackmail: as soon as somebody makes the threat, they're committing blackmail. If the matter came to court, there would be no defence. That kind of thing puts the dominant at a lot of risk. Beating is similar in that, under English law at least, one cannot consent to being assaulted. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any convictions outside pretty extreme cases and I think the legal system and the population at large are much more aware of the idea that people enjoy consensually spanking each other than they are aware that people might consent to this kind of blackmail. I think blackmail is much more dangerous for the dominant than `ordinary' beatings. There's also the issue of third-party consent. The threat inherent in blackmail is to reveal information to some third party but, almost by construction, that person has not consented to being a party to your BDSM activities. After all, asking somebody, `Would it be OK if I showed you incriminating photos of Fred at some point in the future, if he doesn't comply with my demands,' is itself a fairly incriminating act, and, depending on that person's imagination, might even be more incriminating than the photos themselves. beeble. [Edited to fix borken quoting.] First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating blackmailing a person. And I'm definintely not a legal professional, and unless you are, I'm not apt to take what you're saying as correct facts. The point I was trying to make is that all of these activities in the real world would be illegal: Rape, kidnap, assault, blackmail. I don't think there's any question there, even amongst laymen. So any or all of these activities as a created bdsm play scene are on the same exact par. They are all "actions" that would be otherwise illegal if played out against someone non-consenting in the real world. As far as the "third party" consent in your blackmail scenerio, it would never actually happen in the created bdsm scene, because that would end the whole thing, so there wouldn't be a problem of involving someone else.

beeble -> RE: blackmail done right // blackmail done wrong (2/11/2009 12:01:03 PM)
quote: marie2 wrote: And I'm definintely not a legal professional, and unless you are, I'm not apt to take what you're saying as correct facts. I am also not a lawyer. quote: The point I was trying to make is that all of these activities in the real world would be illegal: Rape, kidnap, assault, blackmail. I don't think there's any question there, even amongst laymen. Agreed. But the point that you appear to be missing is that rape and kidnap are offenses that depend on lack of consent. If somebody consents to play-rape or play-kidnap then the very fact that they have consented to it means that it's not actual rape or actual kidnap. There is no such thing as `consensual rape' or `consensual kidnap': you cannot have sex with somebody without their consent, with their consent. Blackmail is not an offence that depends on consent. Any threat to carry out some action detrimental to somebody's reputation unless some demand is met is actual blackmail (or actual extortion but the distinction isn't important, here). As I've stated above, under English law, assault is also not an offence that depends on consent but I don't want to muddy the waters with that. There are two types of offence: `doing X without their consent' (where X is legal with consent) and `doing Y'. Theft and rape are in the first class: there's no offence committed if you have consent to do X. Murder and blackmail are in the second class: consent is irrelevant; the offence is in performing the act. quote: So any or all of these activities as a created bdsm play scene are on the same exact par. They are all "actions" that would be otherwise illegal if played out against someone non-consenting in the real world. It does not follow that all are on a par in a created BDSM play scene. Murder is also illegal in the real world but if you deliberately killed somebody in scene, that would still be illegal. quote: As far as the "third party" consent in your blackmail scenerio, it would never actually happen in the created bdsm scene, because that would end the whole thing, so there wouldn't be a problem of involving someone else. OK but that seems to be a trick that can only be convincingly used once. Also, note that the blackmail is committed at the point where the threat is made, not at the point when it is followed up on (or not). beeble.

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