RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..."

RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (Full Version)

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AngelicaGoddess -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/15/2009 11:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavekal Nonsense. The best, most natural dominas I have ever known whould never submit to anyone. I agree, it doesn't mean not knowing pain, because obviously you gotta know what you dish out, but I missed the memo that I have to be submissive in order to be a "good Domme", but to each their own, there are different ways to the same goal, my way might not be right for somebody else, just like somebody elses way might not be right for me....

TexasMaam -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/15/2009 11:51:52 AM)
While I received training to 'be submissive' so that I would learn what the submissive physical, emotional and psychological response would be to a range of activities, I was never 'a sub' to anyone. Before I was handed a whip and a kneeling, bound male sub to play with, I knew what the whip felt like, knew what a misfall could do, knew how to practice with a whip, knew how many hours of practice it took to handle a whip - I watched those with experience practice alone, in groups, on submissives and I was expected to endure as a submissive and learn what it meant to make the demands I would one day make upon a submissive man. Substitute the words 'flogger, dildo, strapon, cane, paddle, rope, chain, flame, needle, clamp' for 'whip' and repeat. Being a Domme in (submissive) training made me understand the feelings and emotions that a resistant sub goes through in discovering his submissive self. It also taught me how to find my own masochistic pleasure in receiving pain and pressure. Which is NOT to say that I am a sub nor that I would ever submit to a Dominant male at any point in time. I don't give a ratz damn whether anyone 'agrees with' the training I received, or not. I'm glad that I had those years of training. I'm glad that I railed against the pain, against the service I was expected to perfect, I'm glad that I bristled against the verbal mind fucks and the humiliation I was subjected to. I personally feel any Domme should at least engage in that learning process. That training never 'made me a sub.' That training made me a Domme who relishes pain under certain circumstances; it made me a Domme who understands and appreciates the levels of submission in her submale; it made me a Domme who understands, (to a much greater degree than I would have otherwise), the wide range of responses, emotions, and psychological affects of WIITWD on a very personal, real level. I don't know what's that worth to anyone on this blog, but I know what it's worth to Me. I would never have become a Domme without that training, it simply would never have occurred to Me to flog a man until he cries. I believe I am a better Domme for having learned what it is 'like' to be a submissive. TM

jonathan -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/16/2009 1:53:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: femdommistress Hello! I have some question for Dommes and switches on CM. I'll bet most of You have heard this opinion, that people who were slaves once, can be better Mistresses/Masters later, because they know from their own experience what it's like to be a sub in D/s relationship. And this experience seems to help them in understanding slave's psyche and emotions. I'm wondering, what is Your opinion in this case. Do You agree with above sentence, or rather believe it's false? Or maybe You think, that sometimes this method is working out, and sometimes not? Greetings, Lilith OK, I'll bother with this one, close to the heart. The best other is the one that has either tasted or given the whip. Either/or, doesn't matter. Been there, done that, I tend to the giving side.

Andalusite -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/16/2009 9:53:47 AM)
Allthatjaz, I'm not sure if being dominant made me a better submissive - perhaps in some ways, but his style is so different from mine that there were relatively few overlaps in experience in that area. Shakti, there are a few men who have stated that they started as a submissive, and that they feel their training made them a better dominant. Anyway, if someone is already active as a Domme, she can't start as a submissive at that point, even if she chooses to explore that as well, right? [;)]

footpetnorth -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/16/2009 11:59:11 AM)
Statement is not wrong in itself but one can say it could be a generalization. There are different ways of learning things and learning from from experiance is one of them. Also many peole are not good at learning from experiance and perhaps they prefer to lean from other ways of learning. Best Domms are not just those who are good at understanding subs, its a part of whole thing, domms nature, psychology, their view about themselves and many other things play a key role.

SmokingGoddess -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/16/2009 2:31:17 PM)
To play devils advocate, if this concept were true, would that mean that a Good submissive would have been a Dominant first? I think the answer could be that it may help a person improve in the skills they already possess but I dont believe it indicates whether a Dom/Domme is "good". Please forgive obvious errors, I'm sending this through my cell phone.

Madame4a -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/16/2009 3:47:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistressleesa1 The suggestion that dommes should apprentice as subs is ridiculous. The only venue where it's taken seriously is in online chat forums. ' Actually.. that's a load of crap... long before there were online forums... Dom whatevers.. male or female only came up from being submissive.. it was the way I was 'rasied up' so to speak.. and NO ONE ever just decided they were a top, dominant.. or whatever.. you earned your way.. so NO.. its so far from online chat forums.. its not funny...

undergroundsea -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/17/2009 3:22:36 AM)
I think one's ability to handle a situation comes from a sum of intuition and prior experience. I think having such an experience can be helpful in the mix of experiences but is not essential. Whatever advantage I would have if I were to assume a dominant role would come mostly from my insights about the psychology of submissives and creativity. Going through the motions of being submissive does not bring these insights, and these insights about psychology can also be had through discussion. Thus, I don't think it is essential to go through the experience of being submissive. Going through submission will bring insights that are common to psychology and experience of the two in question (struggles with other components of the psyche, etc). While these insights can also be had via discussion by those who don't go through this experience, those that do will be able to draw upon firsthand knowledge. In summary, I don't think such an experience is essential to be a good dominant, but I don't think such an experience is without value as some say it to be. I think it does indeed carry some value. Cheers, Sea

EvilKitty -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/17/2009 3:13:41 PM)
Although I knew perfectly well that I dislike pain & prefer to be in charge, I started out by spending a year bottoming/subbing to a Dom. I learned how to secure a sub more firmly, how a scene can go well or badly, what physical helplessness feels like, what being hit does to the mind & a host of other things that have been amazingly helpful. The truest answer is, "It depends on the person", but for some of us, the idea of hitting another human with our hands or an implement without knowing the effect we caused is anathema. I always try out a new toy by hitting my hand or arm or leg with it before hitting someone else with it. Starting at the bottom to better understand what a bottom goes through just seemed like a normal place to start.

themischievous1 -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/17/2009 6:01:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: femdommistress Hello! I have some question for Dommes and switches on CM. I'll bet most of You have heard this opinion, that people who were slaves once, can be better Mistresses/Masters later, because they know from their own experience what it's like to be a sub in D/s relationship. And this experience seems to help them in understanding slave's psyche and emotions. I'm wondering, what is Your opinion in this case. Do You agree with above sentence, or rather believe it's false? Or maybe You think, that sometimes this method is working out, and sometimes not? Greetings, Lilith I definitely believe in what you've said above. After having submitted in a few real time, serious relationships, and having been a part of the community in my area for a significant period of time, I feel as if I've learned what a submissive is seeking and desires. I don't believe it would be difficult at all to dominate someone. Dominating others comes natural to me, perhaps more than submission did. I have not formally attempted it yet but I'm quite interested in doing so in the future with the right partner. I'm seeking someone who will be my partner in all ways though, so my search may take some time. I don't play casually and I don't get emotionally involved quickly. Time will tell but I have no doubt that I can successfully domme or sub ...which aspect of me will be the more dominant will be dependent upon my partner and that person's needs.

SthrnCom4t -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/17/2009 6:24:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW I think it is safe to say that we learn from every experience we have be it positive or negative. As someone who did submit over 20 years ago in my path to who I am now. I feel that my submission did contribute a great deal to my Dominant style. I have to agree with Ms Flutter as she expressed her memories of submitting. This is in no way an indicator of a need to submit now. However, it does give us an advantage over those that submit to us, fair or unfair. If you see submitting as only a need for pain/discipline then no you probably won't get anything out of it. However, if you look at it as a means of balance, of renewing your mind, and an opportunity to let go, you might just find that it does enhance your Dominant skills. Although I don't consider myself a switch, I have chosen at times to submit myself to a Dominant for those reasons mentioned above. It's all about ME and getting WHAT I need, WHEN I need it. Is that not what Dominance is. Very well said BBBTBW....thank you:) I'll add that I did start off as a submissive, and in fact had some wonderful experiences. The part that rarely worked was being able to completely 'let go'. Also, while I liked being a 'source of pleasure' for someone I respected, and I adored the attention; sexually my fantasies were often of instructing others. With maturity comes self-confidence and life experience which now allows me to provide the safe environment and intuitive skills necessary to be in the Driver's seat.

Wickad -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/18/2009 6:49:35 PM)
Thank you for your opinion. However, it has been my experience that a switch is not simply a Dominant and/or a submissive as required. A switch is whole other option and thus would have a third totally different perspective on the topic. Wickad quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz quote: ORIGINAL: Wickad (fast reply) Greetings, I guess the only question I have (as the whole 'whose a better Dominant has been asked and answered a hundred times) is ... why is the OP asking switches for their opinion? Not that there is anything wrong with the opinions of switches but is there a reason for seeking out this segment of the female population for their opinion? Wickad Because people that have been one before the other could mean they are switches or at least for a time they were.

tornaway -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 4:56:50 PM)
Certainly it can help in knowing what a given sensation might be like , or possibly broaden someone's sense of empathy and compassion . But no matter what you've experienced personally , you will never know what it feels like to live in another's body , or how what their perception of given moment might be . And "best" itself , can be interpreted differently by each sub under a Dom/mes rule .

ShaktiSama -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 7:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite Shakti, there are a few men who have stated that they started as a submissive, and that they feel their training made them a better dominant. Anyway, if someone is already active as a Domme, she can't start as a submissive at that point, even if she chooses to explore that as well, right? [;)] If people are confused about their orientation and take a while to find themselves--more power to them. I am not against a self-initiated process of exploration. However, when you tell someone who already knows their orientation that they have to suffer extremely unpleasant and NON-CONSENSUAL experiences before they "earn" the right to be themselves, I really, seriously have to wonder about your agenda. "Teacher" is just yet another position of power and authority to be abused--and many in the BDSM community do abuse it, if you let them. And just as an aside, if it's always oh-so-educational to learn BDSM by NOT being yourself, why is never the submissives who have to prove themselves by dominating? Why do submissives not have to "earn" the right to be submissives by learning to be a decent top first? Why is a submissive's "submissive nature" sacred and organic, while mine as a dominant has to be achieved by ordeal? People have pointed out on countless occasions that being a quality submissive and a quality bottom takes just as much energy, experience and talent as topping does. So why don't subs have to "earn" their orientation by violating it, if I do? Personally, I get the impression that this attitude of "bottom before you top" descends from the mystery cult atmosphere that existed among the men (and some of the women) of the "Old Guard". I've been told on a number of occasions that the Old Guard functioned very much like a mystery cult from Classical Antiquity, with people starting off as "initiates" being beaten, commanded and used by more experienced people before they were allowed to "graduate" to being dominants or tops. Dominating was considered a privilege to be earned by suffering abuse from others. I'm not Old Guard and have no pretensions to such, however. I came into my dominance privately, many years ago, and was dominant for years long before I found out there was such a thing as a "community". I have attracted people with submissive tendencies all of my life because I radiate power and they are drawn to it--everything else I do as a domme is simply layered on top of that. So learning to use a particular toy or play a particular game is something I do as I go along, for FUN, as an organic part of my love life and sex life. I consider it no different from learning to prepare a favorite food for someone I care about, or acquiring a life skill by taking a few classes, reading a few books, and practicing. Not sure how to create a valid analogy to something non-sexual, but I'll try: the fact that I want to learn to whip up a decent roast goose for my boykin on Boxing Day doesn't mean that I want to be the master chef of a five-star restaurant and go through all the abusive bullshit that is required to get there. Yes, I know I don't get to run the kitchen at Chez Hoity-Toity unless I've spent the requisite years doing humiliating chores as a dish-washer, sous-chef and sauce-chef, being beaten about the head and shoulders by some carping psychopath with a chip on his shoulder. But I don't care. If I have to put up with being beaten, raped and abused before I'm "allowed" to be a domme--I'll take vanilla, thanks. Yes, perhaps I would be a better cook at home in my own kitchen if I had gone through all that crap, it's true. Perhaps I would be a better domme if I was emotionally and physically capable of letting some despicable idiot top me in ways that I would absolutely hate, as well. Problem is, I have no motive to consent to such a thing; I have nothing to prove to anyone and I have no desire to "join the club" so badly that I'm willing to put up with being assaulted.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 7:38:31 PM)
What Shakti said. [:)]

Bella1965 -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 7:58:05 PM)
G'evening all: quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama If people are confused about their orientation and take a while to find themselves--more power to them. I am not against a self-initiated process of exploration. However, when you tell someone who already knows their orientation that they have to suffer extremely unpleasant and NON-CONSENSUAL experiences before they "earn" the right to be themselves, I really, seriously have to wonder about your agenda. "Teacher" is just yet another position of power and authority to be abused--and many in the BDSM community do abuse it, if you let them. And just as an aside, if it's always oh-so-educational to learn BDSM by NOT being yourself, why is never the submissives who have to prove themselves by dominating? Why do submissives not have to "earn" the right to be submissives by learning to be a decent top first? Why is a submissive's "submissive nature" sacred and organic, while mine as a dominant has to be achieved by ordeal? People have pointed out on countless occasions that being a quality submissive and a quality bottom takes just as much energy, experience and talent as topping does. So why don't subs have to "earn" their orientation by violating it, if I do? Personally, I get the impression that this attitude of "bottom before you top" descends from the mystery cult atmosphere that existed among the men (and some of the women) of the "Old Guard". I've been told on a number of occasions that the Old Guard functioned very much like a mystery cult from Classical Antiquity, with people starting off as "initiates" being beaten, commanded and used by more experienced people before they were allowed to "graduate" to being dominants or tops. Dominating was considered a privilege to be earned by suffering abuse from others. I'm not Old Guard and have no pretensions to such, however. I came into my dominance privately, many years ago, and was dominant for years long before I found out there was such a thing as a "community". I have attracted people with submissive tendencies all of my life because I radiate power and they are drawn to it--everything else I do as a domme is simply layered on top of that. So learning to use a particular toy or play a particular game is something I do as I go along, for FUN, as an organic part of my love life and sex life. I consider it no different from learning to prepare a favorite food for someone I care about, or acquiring a life skill by taking a few classes, reading a few books, and practicing. Not sure how to create a valid analogy to something non-sexual, but I'll try: the fact that I want to learn to whip up a decent roast goose for my boykin on Boxing Day doesn't mean that I want to be the master chef of a five-star restaurant and go through all the abusive bullshit that is required to get there. Yes, I know I don't get to run the kitchen at Chez Hoity-Toity unless I've spent the requisite years doing humiliating chores as a dish-washer, sous-chef and sauce-chef, being beaten about the head and shoulders by some carping psychopath with a chip on his shoulder. But I don't care. If I have to put up with being beaten, raped and abused before I'm "allowed" to be a domme--I'll take vanilla, thanks. Yes, perhaps I would be a better cook at home in my own kitchen if I had gone through all that crap, it's true. Perhaps I would be a better domme if I was emotionally and physically capable of letting some despicable idiot top me in ways that I would absolutely hate, as well. Problem is, I have no motive to consent to such a thing; I have nothing to prove to anyone and I have no desire to "join the club" so badly that I'm willing to put up with being assaulted. I think I love you Shakti. [:)] To those believing in Old Guard? Goodie for you. Not all female dominants need the dubious validation of their peers by being put through the ringer. I strongly suggest that you do not impose your questionable values upon others and imply that everyone can benefit by undergoing the same tribulations. I know who and what I am. I need no trial by fire period to determine what I've felt since becoming sexually aware. I do however practice my skills with various implements on a regular basis. I wouldn't raise them against someone if I felt I was lacking in the application. That's called ethics. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

Wannabwoman39047 -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 9:20:52 PM)
I am not saying that those that have been sub are better Domme's because of it. Or that they are worse. I was married to my Mistress for 20 years. The last 15 of those as her submissive. She was a true sadist and a naturally dominant woman. She did not have a submissive bone in her body. She was a wonderful woman to serve under.

EvilKitty -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 9:37:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bella1965 G'evening all: quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama If people are confused about their orientation and take a while to find themselves--more power to them. I am not against a self-initiated process of exploration. However, when you tell someone who already knows their orientation that they have to suffer extremely unpleasant and NON-CONSENSUAL experiences before they "earn" the right to be themselves, I really, seriously have to wonder about your agenda. "Teacher" is just yet another position of power and authority to be abused--and many in the BDSM community do abuse it, if you let them. And just as an aside, if it's always oh-so-educational to learn BDSM by NOT being yourself, why is never the submissives who have to prove themselves by dominating? Why do submissives not have to "earn" the right to be submissives by learning to be a decent top first? Why is a submissive's "submissive nature" sacred and organic, while mine as a dominant has to be achieved by ordeal? People have pointed out on countless occasions that being a quality submissive and a quality bottom takes just as much energy, experience and talent as topping does. So why don't subs have to "earn" their orientation by violating it, if I do? Personally, I get the impression that this attitude of "bottom before you top" descends from the mystery cult atmosphere that existed among the men (and some of the women) of the "Old Guard". I've been told on a number of occasions that the Old Guard functioned very much like a mystery cult from Classical Antiquity, with people starting off as "initiates" being beaten, commanded and used by more experienced people before they were allowed to "graduate" to being dominants or tops. Dominating was considered a privilege to be earned by suffering abuse from others. I'm not Old Guard and have no pretensions to such, however. I came into my dominance privately, many years ago, and was dominant for years long before I found out there was such a thing as a "community". I have attracted people with submissive tendencies all of my life because I radiate power and they are drawn to it--everything else I do as a domme is simply layered on top of that. So learning to use a particular toy or play a particular game is something I do as I go along, for FUN, as an organic part of my love life and sex life. I consider it no different from learning to prepare a favorite food for someone I care about, or acquiring a life skill by taking a few classes, reading a few books, and practicing. Not sure how to create a valid analogy to something non-sexual, but I'll try: the fact that I want to learn to whip up a decent roast goose for my boykin on Boxing Day doesn't mean that I want to be the master chef of a five-star restaurant and go through all the abusive bullshit that is required to get there. Yes, I know I don't get to run the kitchen at Chez Hoity-Toity unless I've spent the requisite years doing humiliating chores as a dish-washer, sous-chef and sauce-chef, being beaten about the head and shoulders by some carping psychopath with a chip on his shoulder. But I don't care. If I have to put up with being beaten, raped and abused before I'm "allowed" to be a domme--I'll take vanilla, thanks. Yes, perhaps I would be a better cook at home in my own kitchen if I had gone through all that crap, it's true. Perhaps I would be a better domme if I was emotionally and physically capable of letting some despicable idiot top me in ways that I would absolutely hate, as well. Problem is, I have no motive to consent to such a thing; I have nothing to prove to anyone and I have no desire to "join the club" so badly that I'm willing to put up with being assaulted. I think I love you Shakti. [:)] To those believing in Old Guard? Goodie for you. Not all female dominants need the dubious validation of their peers by being put through the ringer. I strongly suggest that you do not impose your questionable values upon others and imply that everyone can benefit by undergoing the same tribulations. I know who and what I am. I need no trial by fire period to determine what I've felt since becoming sexually aware. I do however practice my skills with various implements on a regular basis. I wouldn't raise them against someone if I felt I was lacking in the application. That's called ethics. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella Wow, y'all seem to have suffered some real jerks in your time! The bitterness is palpable. When I first became aware of BDSM/kink/leather/reindeer games, it was because I was hanging around with beloved friends; friends who happened to be gay men. They were Old Guard, though they didn't call themselves that, they just called it Leather. I was never told what I "SHOULD" do; I observed the care & the skill with which they & their friends conducted themselves. When I became aware of my own fascination & strong pull towards BDSM, I didn't know anything. But, because I had observed people I respected & that I had known started off as "boys" or "dogs", I thought it would be a good way to learn. I asked a straight man in the lifestyle if he would be willing to work with me; thankfully, he said yes. I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent learning, though I never found a smidgeon of submissiveness in myself; & I tried! When I felt that I was ready, I became the Dominant I'd already accepted that I was. In all these years, I've NEVER told anyone they SHOULD start as a bottom/sub. If asked, I will tell them that it was a good start for me; that's all. I've watched countless people come into the lifestyle as one thing & change when it was the right thing for them to do; from sub to top & from top to bottom. I hope I stay smart enough never to presume what someone else's path should be.

Bella1965 -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 10:13:23 PM)
G'morning all: What you perceive as bitterness is your own misinterpretation. Some female dominants, myself included, are just tired of others cramming their self righteous beliefs down our throats that we should have begun our BDSM journeys on the other side of the flogger. Simply because they did. Goodie for them. Makes it right for them, not for others. The fact that you've become defensive about "Old Guard" is an indicator of your own insecurity, no one else's. If it suited you, fine. It doesn't suit everyone. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

GoddessTeaze -> RE: "The best Dommes are those, who were subs first..." (2/19/2009 10:41:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: femdommistress I'll bet most of You have heard this opinion, that people who were slaves once, can be better Mistresses/Masters later, because they know from their own experience what it's like to be a sub in D/s relationship. Greetings, Lilith Do You believe in fairytales..? I happily disagree on this asumption. No need to b a dentist to know what toothacke is right? EG It's about empathy, good communication, being able to read your sub, and love them with all you're ! That makes a Dominant good. I wish You enough. GoddezzT`

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