RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand

RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (Full Version)

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ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/14/2009 10:50:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit This woman and son, no matter what... are not the one's that should be getting help. But then, look who is being helped with this new bill and it's provisions. A bill passed without one person reading all... over 1000 pages of it. Why is it that when the Patriot Act, a bill that destroyed over two hundred years worth of constitutional tradition in this country, was rammed through with no one reading it, the conservatives billed this as a great step forward.When a penny of government money may go to those who need help, suddenly it is time to start reading through every line? Can we at least admit the truth: The conservative position is always against any government safety net and in favor of letting those who do find themselves in dire need of help die on the street as a matter of course. Really, name one of your rights that was removed by the patriot act please. Since the majority of the patriot act only allowed the government to apply the same tactics they use against cross-border white collar criminals against terrorists in a time of war, please explain how any theoretical loss of your rights (if you can state any) is a violation of tradition. The same people that bitch about the patriot act are going to be right there supporting the fairness doctrine and federal firearms registration, blatant attacks against the two most important amendments in the bill of rights. The left depends on this kind of continued ignorance. The stimulus bill alone increases the size and power of government by over 30 percent. That alone is a bigger threat to my rights than all the totaled imaginations of the leftist anti-bush conspiracy minded useful idiots out there.

ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/14/2009 10:56:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales It should be noted that Henrietta asked for two things: a home and a job. She didn't ask for a free ride. She asked for a way that she could support herself and her children. I personally don't see those two requests as terribly unreasonable. How exactly is a "home and a job" not a handout ? Millions of people find jobs for themselves and manage to create a home for themselves without sticking a hand in the taxpayers pocket. What freaking right does she have to be single out for special treatment by fatherly leader ? All of this talk is stupid anyway. Every "townhall" meeting this country has seen on tv is an orchestrated campaign ad.

ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/14/2009 11:00:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Heretic, that's odd, I was just reading an article in "Change.org" about the growing problem of "white collar homelessness." There are increasing numbers of white collar workers now showing up at homeless shelters. And this "global-economy" that big business and politicians told us would be "good for us" has become a total disaster! It's to the point right now that if you walk into a Walmart and buy a product that's made in China or another foreign country you're cutting your own throat! We should have people outside of Walmarts yelling "SCAB!" at the people comming out of them. I'm not worried about being called a scab, the ignorant usually aren't industrious enough to get out of bed and do anything. At least if they did, i'd find it amusing. I find the walmart greeters creepy. I'm still waiting for someone to take the initiative and greet people with the same line the greeters in the movie "idiotcracy" use. "Welcome to [Costco\|Walmart], we love you.".

ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/14/2009 11:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UncleNasty quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic but I'm glad we have a safety net. By what standard are you measuring the existence of a safety net? I've not seen evidence to support your statement. Uncle Nasty By the fact that the total number of decomposing homeless people i need to step over in my daily comings and goings is still a grand total of zero.

DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 3:13:19 AM)
I had a recent visit from a distant relative who is about my dad's age. This relative spent his entire adult career in the Navy, while my dad did a 4 year stint and got out, working in the private sector all his life. Neither had college degrees, but my dad did work his way up into management at an electronics manufacturing facility. Yet this relative who spent his life in the Navy makes twice as much in retirement today than my dad who 'did the right thing' and spent the bulk of his life off the government dole. Later, my dad had to dodge the impacts of NAFTA in his sunset years, whereas the relative in the Navy did not. This problem is waaaaaay beyond the actions of a welfare-conditioned colored woman turning down "housing with strings". Dependance on government is only going to continue to grow when it becomes the only gig in town for educated white collar types that pays well and doesnt feature "the NAFTA shafta". There are no incentives anymore to work in the private sector. Walmart as a low cost shopping experience to go along with your post-NAFTA low wage job? Thats a private sector employment incentive? Look at all the government employment that the new Homeland Security Department created when that agency was created, and then we wonder why government scares the hell out of us, spooking us about potential terrorists at every turn. And on top of it all, we are borrowing from China to make that Homeland Security payroll. Government incentivising more dependance on itself is not strictly a welfare world thing, and was long out of control even before a colored woman grabbed the microphone at a town hall.

TheHeretic -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 9:28:14 AM)
One problem with how our current system works is that it actually discourages people from taking an initiative to better themselves. Example: A person becomes permanently disabled, fights their way through the years of bullshit process, hearings, and appeals (gotta love it when the gov't starts creating jobs [8\|]), and is smart enough with the lump sum and stipend to settle under a stable roof with food in the pantry. Can they rent out a room? Nope. That is income, and yanked right back out of the gov't check. Every pain in the ass that comes with having a stranger in your living space is completely unrewarded. Can they make things in those times they can, and get a booth at a swap meet twice a year? "You made $500 this month? Then we'll assume you are going to be making $500 every month, and cut your benefits accordingly. And because you are making so much, we'll add a $1500 share of cost on medical expenses." Better to just sit in the recliner with the drapes closed, all day, every day. Make the most of the pain pills and patches. How about a young person, raised in a multi-generational assistance environment? In many states (rules vary) anything they go out and work for is considered household income and deducted from the grant. They get to come home stinking of french fries for what exactly? The lesson they learn is that work gets you nowhere. Better to hang with the homies, and sling a little dope on the corner, or get pregnant and become a whole new case number. These are some of the things we ought to be looking at changing in the social services sector, not pouring more handouts to those who aren't willing to do for themselves.

TheHeretic -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 9:42:57 AM)
Well, I'm certainly with you on the subject of the public employees, Dedicated. The servants shouldn't be doing better the people they are hired to serve. The guy who drives a water truck for a contractor shouldn't be making half what the guy driving it for the county does. But, did you actually say "colored woman?" Jesus. What the hell does her skin tone have to do with it? Trash comes in all colors.

Lockit -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 9:46:44 AM)
I agree Heretic. They system as it is doesn't work and yet every change they have tried to make just cost a lot of money reorgainizing, frustrating the employee's, confusing everyone and little change was done because they held on to some of the wrong things. Still unless mentally or physically unable, people need to learn the system not to abuse it, but to know the pit falls and how to get out of it on their own. There has to be some personal accountablity, but when the government can't even do it and set us up... whether getting benefits or a tax payer... some just simply give up.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 10:01:16 AM)
quote: had a recent visit from a distant relative who is about my dad's age. This relative spent his entire adult career in the Navy, while my dad did a 4 year stint and got out, working in the private sector all his life. Neither had college degrees, but my dad did work his way up into management at an electronics manufacturing facility. Yet this relative who spent his life in the Navy makes twice as much in retirement today than my dad who 'did the right thing' and spent the bulk of his life off the government dole. Later, my dad had to dodge the impacts of NAFTA in his sunset years, whereas the relative in the Navy did not. This problem is waaaaaay beyond the actions of a welfare-conditioned colored woman turning down "housing with strings". Well, my dad got drafted in 1965. He didn't have a choice about being in the Army. But he took advantage of the situation. He was working for Avis car rental, with no college degree. He got drafted, and he volunteered for OCS after his basic. He went there, and he got his commission and did his time in Vietnam as an infantry officer. He came back, and he took advantage of his GI Bill. He went full time to college, with only his part time National Guard wages and my mother's wages from working in the college's library. The day he graduated, he was hired. He worked for that company until his retirement in 1995. The big difference I saw in my father and my friend's parent growing up? My father was a tightwad. He saved almost every dime he made. We could have had a huge house with a swimming pool. We could have taken lavish vacations. But we didn't. We lived modestly, and that was drilled into my head. Guess what? My father is 65, retired, and living comfortably with no worries. Your attitude that your relative "lived on the dole" is idiotic. Your relative took advantage of his opportunities. I don't know about your father. All I know is that you can succeed if you want to. You just have to be patient, take advantage of opportunities when they present themselves, and you can't expect to get it all in the beginning. Your comment about Wal-Mart shows ignorance. Wal-Mart entry level jobs are exactly that.....entry level. You either strive to move up within Wal-Mart's chain of command, or you use your time there to get an education. If you fail to use your time wisely, than that's your fault.

UncleNasty -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 10:03:11 AM)
I bitch about the USA PATRIOT Act, and I am not a supporter of either of the other two potential pieces of legislation you mention. Did I just wreck your curve? That you aren't stepping over any decomposing bodies of homeless is more an indication that you don't travel in the areas they inhabit than it is of their nonexistence. Out of sight out of mind? News sources are currently indicating a rise in the number of formerly middle class families becoming homeless, including children. They also indicate a rising number of "white collar" homeless folks. The biggest safety net our society offers has always been for business. The image of the rugged individualist is mostly hot sauce with no tamale. From the earliest days there has been far more governmental support and subsidy to business than to individual citizens. The trillions currently being spent to support and subsidize failing businesses is merely another example of that. And, of course, it is the individual citizen that ultimately pays for that as the government has no money of its own - it only has the money it takes from others (which can be from individuals and/or business). With the bailout/s before Obamas stimulus plan being at $8.5 trillion dollars, each adult citizen is being tapped for approximately $40,000 to support failing businesses. I'm not up on what the current administration is offering, or on what is projected as being needed in the coming months, but we (individual citizens) aren't done having our money taken from us and redistributed to business and corporations. Most predictions are that we haven't stemmed the tide of the downturn. Uncle Nasty

TheHeretic -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/15/2009 10:37:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UncleNasty I am not a supporter of either of the other two potential pieces of legislation you mention. Did I just wreck your curve? What "potential" legislation? These are well established programs. I'm even less of a fan of corporate welfare when it amounts to, in the phrase of another poster I highly respect on the subject, rewarding failure.

DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Homeless Henrietta: A handout, not a hand (2/16/2009 10:49:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Your relative took advantage of his opportunities. I don't know about your father. All I know is that you can succeed if you want to. The point of this exercise is the generosity level of those "opportunities" is defined by (guess who?) the government, and that has now exceeded the opportunities available for most in the private sector, which inevitably draws more people into government service and is making the problem of 'more people on the government dole' a bigger problem. Its not about "taking advantage of opportunities". Its about scaling back the scope of those government driven "opportunties" to less than whats available in the private sector (which itself has slid dramatically post-NAFTA) as an incentive to stop the exodus from the private sector.. quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Wal-Mart entry level jobs are exactly that.....entry level. You either strive to move up within Wal-Mart's chain of command, or you use your time there to get an education. If you fail to use your time wisely, than that's your fault. Now that a funny one! I sure dont see "entry level" in the typical Walmart. I see career "working class poor", unable to afford college even on the installment plan, and who end up seeking government funded healthcare for their families because "benefits" is a foreign word to their employer. I also see near-retirement folks who used to be high wage earners who were forced into early retirement and who are picking up "pocket change" for a few years until the pension kicks in. I see retired people who should be retired, but had to come back into the workforce to make extra money to cover their co-pays on their prescription drugs because big pharma has been let off the leash. I see others with a degree who used to make $20+ an hr before NAFTA, and when they already are educated and their career already exceeds anything Walmart can offer, they fail to see "opportunity" to "impress the boss" and "work up through the ranks". Only ignorance would deem Walmart as "entry level" anymore. By definition, "entry level" implies other better levels beyond. Not the case anymore. For those who have been asleep for the last decade and missed it, the class of jobs that comprises "above working at Walmart" is currently being eroded out of existance.

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