Not to sully "Sully" in any way (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:26:22 AM)

Is there nothing sacred ? I have no doubt that this pilot pretty much saved the day, but now senior NTSB investigator Robert Benzon has informed the AP the "probe into the crash landing will take a year".

Two days before flight 1549 crashed, passengers on the same plane cited a series of loud bangs, and were told by the crew that they could be forced to make an emergency landing. The NTSB (et al) have cnfirmed that this was the same plane, tail number N106US. The crew told the passengers the plane was experiencing "compression locks".

The FAA specifically warned that the CFM56-5B engines used on the plane were prone to compressor stalls, and on Dec 13, 2008 issued an "airworthiness directive" urging all airlines to inspect this type of engine. Kirk Koening, President of Expert Aviation Consulting told Newsday on Jan. 20 that these compressor stalls can cause permanent damage to the engines.

Mind you the exact same plane had similar problems just two days before. That time it didn't fall down, the next time it did. I don't mean the same kind of plane, I mean the exact same one.

The FAA had already ordered heightened inspection procedures for these things, and if I know much about engines and stuff, if they had performed these inspections there would likely be a guy hanging off the side by a wrench literally hanging on by the last bolt if they had only two days. When you get to a really close inspection that could include Xrays of all the impellers and, two days ?  Even working three shifts I doubt it. On the other hand some of the warnings had been issued a couple of weeks before, so if that's true, and more believable that they had done the inspections,  what good did they do ? It failed anyway.

What's more, why do they use that plane when it just had problems two days before ?

Well Sully didn't make that decision, he may have been walking up to the plane thinking 'I hope they got this thing fixed',  and went on and did his job. Nothing can take that away from him, imagine the skill involved if you know anything about physics, or something like that. Remember skipping stones across a lake or a river ? Try that with a popsicle stick. How many people would just start praying or something in that situation ?

This is from the AFP and I have basically just used the bare facts with names because I am not that good a typist, but moreso because the article this info came from was written by one of those dern conspiracy theorists. So far none of this falls on Sully, but being a conspiracy theorist he asked an interesting question.

Is Sully's silence possibly a clue that he does not want to implicitly partake in a coverup ?

That's what I meant by 'is nothing sacred ?'. How I take that is that he is going along with the program, being a good company Man of course, but also not entertaining all these questions is he simply refusing to lie ? Was the author condemning or commending ? (try typing that real fast three times) Or both or neither ?

And what is the truth ? You know if I have a car that stalls, I fix it or have it fixed or drive something else. Wouldn't you think with an airplane ............. well if you don't get it forget it.

I think the author of the article is alluding to the fact that he expected to see Sully do the tour, Oprah, Letterman, probably be quite the hit on Tyra. Whoever's out there anyway, is Letterman still around ?

The human interest media value is great indeed. Even if he "did the tour" under the condition that nothing woud be brought up about the company or all that, some of these shows could focus on the actual experience instead and crank some pretty damn good ratings. In other words, why haven't we seen more of him ?

I would do it and take the money. I would just tell them that as long as the investigation goes on I can't say anything, and add that there is ALWAYS an investigation.

Or shall we assume the worst and say the "flock of geese" was code for compressor stall ?

And, just to assert that I am not a conspiracy theorist, I take no notice of the fact that there is any investigation. All plane crashes need to be investigated. It's not always an investigation looking for malfeasance or sabotage, things like that, it might be conducted by metalurgists, who knows. We need to know what failed and why ?

Backing up a bit, these CFM 56-5Bs have been in service how long ? And just now this problem crops up. Don't get me wrong, I work in a technical field and know it can happen. But at that point some sort of repair, modification or retrofit is in order if you want to keep running the thing. If that's what it is then so be it, but then those repairs should be made on all such units before things start to happen.

So should they just ground all the planes with these engines ?

There is another aspect to this. Let's say there is a big coverup, and revelations could hurt our economy. They would.  Reducing consumer confidence in commercial airflight is nothing to sneeze at, and the fact that aircraft are one of the few things we actually sell and make money on. So is it Sully's patriotic duty to just keep his mouth shut ?

If you press my buttons I can source the article somehow, but I would rather not. I would rather source the sources. The author's point of view is slewed, and I don't want that factored in.  Just your opinions and input as usual.

T



Owner59 -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:39:04 AM)

What does "slewed" mean?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 11:28:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What does "slewed" mean?


Google is your friend ....

define: slewed

Firm



thornhappy -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 12:24:01 PM)

When the windscreen is filled with birds, they hear multiple thumps (compressor stalls tend to be bangs),  goose feathers and parts are retrieved from the engines, and the pilots could smell burning birds (the smell got into the bypass air and that's what goes into the cabin), it's gonna be due to birdstrike.  No engine is rated to take multiple 6-12 lb birds.

On the inspection front, it depends on whether that was a time-critical inspection and what the time compliance was.  Remember when American was grounded for almost a week?  That was a time critical inspection, to be done immediately, with no flying until it was finished.  Some inspections are given several years to conduct (like the ones for Kapton and frayed wiring above the cabin ceiling).

Engine inspection would include borescoping, so you could look for damaged blades or vanes.

Sully could look at the maintenance logs for the plane to see any prior problems and maintenance actions.

As an aside...it never ceases to amaze me how people can come up with conspiracy theories for every damn thing under the sun.  And usually they have fatal flaws in their theories.  I suppose the 1st officer was in on this too?

Sully's modesty may be simply due to the fact that in-flight emergencies are something they train for, that he had the skills for this one, and it wasn't a miracle.  (Many pilots say it was fantastic flying but it wasn't a "miracle" - it's the (non-aviator) media calling it a miracle.)

thornhappy





windchymes -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 12:34:24 PM)

So, did we ever decide who was on the grassy knoll? [8|]



MarsBonfire -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 6:19:36 PM)

It's all a conspiracy. One of the pets drowned in the cargo hold of the jet was slated to be a candidate for "first dog." The GOP knew they had to take that Dem Dog out. So they staged this elaborate "accident" to make sure that the Obama girls were deprived of their pet. The dog was retrieved by a crack team of black ops SEALS and spirited away on a black helicopter, extraordinarily renditioned to a prison overseas, where Carl Rove is personally overseeing the pooch'e waterboarding. It is their hope to program the dog into a "Manchurian" pet, and be able to take out the Obama family when the code signal is given.



Termyn8or -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 6:46:24 PM)

OK Thorn we have several possibilities, two days before there were not enough birds, then there were.

I don't mean to make it oversimplistic, but there is an air filter on your car engine. If these engines are more susceptible to bird guts, shouldn't something be done about it ? I understand the enormous amount of air they take in, thus causing difficulties in designing any kind of screen or filter, but once you put a Man on the moon you should be able to handle a flock of geese.

My OP tries to bring not only this, but other things to light.

Perhaps the last part was to light up the conspiracy theorists, to point out that there is something onto which they can grab, to further their goals. I don't mind discussing it, and it might be good here. I don't buy into everything, but when someone brings a valid question, to actually label them officially, at least a valid answer is warranted aforehand. If the people who believe that we can trust the "cooperative" between media, government and business, I give them a chance as well.

As I said, EVERY plane crash should be investigated, and if it is found to be a fifteen cent transistor made in bumfict Argentina or a $14,000 Bosch injector, we should know.

Every question about the technicalities are likely to remain unanswered, but at the end, what is sacred ? Company Man, ex-military, would do nothing against his country, which would include hurting our export business or or transpartation, if the theorist's theory is true, can you really accuse the Man ?

Continue on as it was, I just wanted to bring up the point that this was a significant part of the query I intended to induce with the OP. How much and how long does one keep their mouth shut ?

I don't mean to dodge the issue in any way, the company probably did put profits ahead of people, and if that is found to be true, maybe he just doesn't want to be a part of it.

Smart Man, we need more like him even if what I have said in complete supposition is true  I have done this, I have been told by employers that if I did not do as they ask it might be the end of us. Being the big fish in the small pond I take it seriously, so maybe Sully does as well. How can I fault what I respect ? They give me a good living and while I don't kill people, I have done a few things that are say, less than above board. It takes quite a bit for me to be actually dishonest and I avoid it like the plague, but the fact is that I will do it if the stakes are great enough.

Perhaps I should have titled this "Honesty via Silence".

Be well, and now that the phone has rung (people I actually DID want to talk to) some may have gotten a post in edgewise so to speak. If so I will address that later.

Whatever you say, just mean it.

T



ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:07:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Is there nothing sacred ? I have no doubt that this pilot pretty much saved the day, but now senior NTSB investigator Robert Benzon has informed the AP the "probe into the crash landing will take a year".



Every NTSB investigation of any major accident takes a year.

quote:



Two days before flight 1549 crashed, passengers on the same plane cited a series of loud bangs, and were told by the crew that they could be forced to make an emergency landing. The NTSB (et al) have cnfirmed that this was the same plane, tail number N106US. The crew told the passengers the plane was experiencing "compression locks".

The FAA specifically warned that the CFM56-5B engines used on the plane were prone to compressor stalls, and on Dec 13, 2008 issued an "airworthiness directive" urging all airlines to inspect this type of engine. Kirk Koening, President of Expert Aviation Consulting told Newsday on Jan. 20 that these compressor stalls can cause permanent damage to the engines.



The media never gets any of this technical information correct. There's no such thing as a "compression lock".

quote:



Mind you the exact same plane had similar problems just two days before. That time it didn't fall down, the next time it did. I don't mean the same kind of plane, I mean the exact same one.



There's tons of anecdotal information that a bird strike was involved. A bird strike is not a "compressor stall". The NTSB will be diligent in determining that one or both engines were taken down by bird strikes and if both weren't they will tear the airplanes systems apart until they determine a reason why the 2nd engine failed.

quote:



The FAA had already ordered heightened inspection procedures for these things, and if I know much about engines and stuff, if they had performed these inspections there would likely be a guy hanging off the side by a wrench literally hanging on by the last bolt if they had only two days. When you get to a really close inspection that could include Xrays of all the impellers and, two days ?  Even working three shifts I doubt it. On the other hand some of the warnings had been issued a couple of weeks before, so if that's true, and more believable that they had done the inspections,  what good did they do ? It failed anyway.



I have to say "so what ?". Airliners, engines, etc are composed of thousands of critical parts. You have never ridden on an airliner that did not have airworthiness directives against it. Airworthiness directives don't mean there's a defect in a part only that there has been at least one instance of possible service difficultly. The required actions for most AD's is to do an inspection within a certain amount of time. That amount of time is almost never going to be as short as "two weeks".

quote:



What's more, why do they use that plane when it just had problems two days before ?



There's no proof that plane had problems two days before and if it did, it certainly wasn't "compression locks".

quote:



Well Sully didn't make that decision, he may have been walking up to the plane thinking 'I hope they got this thing fixed',  and went on and did his job. Nothing can take that away from him, imagine the skill involved if you know anything about physics, or something like that. Remember skipping stones across a lake or a river ? Try that with a popsicle stick. How many people would just start praying or something in that situation ?

This is from the AFP and I have basically just used the bare facts with names because I am not that good a typist, but moreso because the article this info came from was written by one of those dern conspiracy theorists. So far none of this falls on Sully, but being a conspiracy theorist he asked an interesting question.



Wow a conspiracy theorist, there's a surprise.

quote:



Is Sully's silence possibly a clue that he does not want to implicitly partake in a coverup ?



He's silent because he's supposed to be out of respect for the ongoing investigation by the NTSB and almost certainly by company policy. I can assure you he's not being quiet when it comes to telling the NTSB what his actions were and what he thinks brought the plane down.

quote:



That's what I meant by 'is nothing sacred ?'. How I take that is that he is going along with the program, being a good company Man of course, but also not entertaining all these questions is he simply refusing to lie ? Was the author condemning or commending ? (try typing that real fast three times) Or both or neither ?



An additional plus to be quiet is you don't have to deal with fools like the one that wrote the article you're referencing.

quote:



And what is the truth ? You know if I have a car that stalls, I fix it or have it fixed or drive something else. Wouldn't you think with an airplane ............. well if you don't get it forget it.



Sorry, there's no proof that aircraft was in any way unairworthy. If it was, the NTSB will determine why. If it was something the crew or company should of noticed before flight they'll suffer consequences for it.

quote:


I think the author of the article is alluding to the fact that he expected to see Sully do the tour, Oprah, Letterman, probably be quite the hit on Tyra. Whoever's out there anyway, is Letterman still around ?

The human interest media value is great indeed. Even if he "did the tour" under the condition that nothing woud be brought up about the company or all that, some of these shows could focus on the actual experience instead and crank some pretty damn good ratings. In other words, why haven't we seen more of him ?

I would do it and take the money. I would just tell them that as long as the investigation goes on I can't say anything, and add that there is ALWAYS an investigation.

Or shall we assume the worst and say the "flock of geese" was code for compressor stall ?

And, just to assert that I am not a conspiracy theorist, I take no notice of the fact that there is any investigation. All plane crashes need to be investigated. It's not always an investigation looking for malfeasance or sabotage, things like that, it might be conducted by metalurgists, who knows. We need to know what failed and why ?

Backing up a bit, these CFM 56-5Bs have been in service how long ? And just now this problem crops up. Don't get me wrong, I work in a technical field and know it can happen. But at that point some sort of repair, modification or retrofit is in order if you want to keep running the thing. If that's what it is then so be it, but then those repairs should be made on all such units before things start to happen.

So should they just ground all the planes with these engines ?

There is another aspect to this. Let's say there is a big coverup, and revelations could hurt our economy. They would.  Reducing consumer confidence in commercial airflight is nothing to sneeze at, and the fact that aircraft are one of the few things we actually sell and make money on. So is it Sully's patriotic duty to just keep his mouth shut ?

If you press my buttons I can source the article somehow, but I would rather not. I would rather source the sources. The author's point of view is slewed, and I don't want that factored in.  Just your opinions and input as usual.

T


Oh good lord, I can't believe i read all of this. The NTSB is competent at least when it comes to finding the cause of commercial airliners going down. (TWA800 the possible exception due to interference from other federal agencies).

Sully is keeping his mouth shut because he is supposed too, it is that simple.



ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:17:20 PM)

quote:



Sully's modesty may be simply due to the fact that in-flight emergencies are something they train for, that he had the skills for this one, and it wasn't a miracle.  (Many pilots say it was fantastic flying but it wasn't a "miracle" - it's the (non-aviator) media calling it a miracle.)



The miracle wasn't just the superb airmanship it was in all the circumstances.

Perfectly calm water, no ships in the way, landing in the direction of the water current, perfect piloting of the aircraft. All kept the damage to the pressure vessel minimal so the plane sank slowly enough for everyone to get out. If any of this was different it's likely the aircraft would of sank with a significant number of the people still on board.

A huge number of ships were on the scene in the span of a couple minutes, no one spent enough time in the water for hypothermia to be an issue.

The passengers listened and obeyed the cabin crew instead of freaking out and blocking the exits. The entire crew including Scully would of perished if this didn't occur.




ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:20:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

It's all a conspiracy. One of the pets drowned in the cargo hold of the jet was slated to be a candidate for "first dog." The GOP knew they had to take that Dem Dog out. So they staged this elaborate "accident" to make sure that the Obama girls were deprived of their pet. The dog was retrieved by a crack team of black ops SEALS and spirited away on a black helicopter, extraordinarily renditioned to a prison overseas, where Carl Rove is personally overseeing the pooch'e waterboarding. It is their hope to program the dog into a "Manchurian" pet, and be able to take out the Obama family when the code signal is given.


Yes but black labs and golden retrievers *LIKE* water boarding.



ArizonaSunSwitch -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/14/2009 10:31:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK Thorn we have several possibilities, two days before there were not enough birds, then there were.

I don't mean to make it oversimplistic, but there is an air filter on your car engine. If these engines are more susceptible to bird guts, shouldn't something be done about it ? I understand the enormous amount of air they take in, thus causing difficulties in designing any kind of screen or filter, but once you put a Man on the moon you should be able to handle a flock of geese.



Oh good lord. You're a troll right ? In a second at full thrust those engines process more air than your car engine will process in it's entire 20yr lifetime.

If you think you can produce an air filter that doesn't create air resistance and can handle getting hit by a 20lb object at 300 miles an hour without creating more fod than the bird itself, i'm sure the airlines would love to make you a multi billionaire.

How long do you think your car would survive if you stuck it in front of NASA's bird gun and had the happy operators there fling Col Sanders best at your car at 300 to 600 miles per hour ?

The entire thrust of a jet engine (the gas turbine part of it anyway) is based on it ejecting the air it breathes (along with the mass of the combusted fuel) out the back at a higher velocity than it enters the engine. Slowing the air down the moment it enters the engine is not part of the program.

quote:



My OP tries to bring not only this, but other things to light.

Perhaps the last part was to light up the conspiracy theorists, to point out that there is something onto which they can grab, to further their goals. I don't mind discussing it, and it might be good here. I don't buy into everything, but when someone brings a valid question, to actually label them officially, at least a valid answer is warranted aforehand. If the people who believe that we can trust the "cooperative" between media, government and business, I give them a chance as well.

As I said, EVERY plane crash should be investigated, and if it is found to be a fifteen cent transistor made in bumfict Argentina or a $14,000 Bosch injector, we should know.

Every question about the technicalities are likely to remain unanswered, but at the end, what is sacred ? Company Man, ex-military, would do nothing against his country, which would include hurting our export business or or transpartation, if the theorist's theory is true, can you really accuse the Man ?

Continue on as it was, I just wanted to bring up the point that this was a significant part of the query I intended to induce with the OP. How much and how long does one keep their mouth shut ?

I don't mean to dodge the issue in any way, the company probably did put profits ahead of people, and if that is found to be true, maybe he just doesn't want to be a part of it.

Smart Man, we need more like him even if what I have said in complete supposition is true  I have done this, I have been told by employers that if I did not do as they ask it might be the end of us. Being the big fish in the small pond I take it seriously, so maybe Sully does as well. How can I fault what I respect ? They give me a good living and while I don't kill people, I have done a few things that are say, less than above board. It takes quite a bit for me to be actually dishonest and I avoid it like the plague, but the fact is that I will do it if the stakes are great enough.

Perhaps I should have titled this "Honesty via Silence".

Be well, and now that the phone has rung (people I actually DID want to talk to) some may have gotten a post in edgewise so to speak. If so I will address that later.

Whatever you say, just mean it.

T


Oh good lord, no one is covering anything up. Scully is supposed to be quiet, his silence means nothing. The NTSB does a good job on commercial airliner accidents. That's why it takes a year. What magazine or newspaper was stupid enough to publish the article you site anyway ?





corysub -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/15/2009 4:05:11 AM)

All I know about engines is you have to turn a key to start them.  My question is this.  Passengers, I beleive, saw flames coming out of the engine.  Is that normal for a compression failure..or do the engines just choke and stop running?



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/15/2009 5:50:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
How much and how long does one keep their mouth shut ?


That's a sticky question from an aviator's pov, Termy.
 
When push comes to shove - we're Trained to feel that Any accident is ultimately our fault.  If it's mechanical failure - it's still our fault, because PIC is the one who declares (technically) whether the plane is considered "airworthy".  If it fails,that means that (technically) the pilot in command made a poor decision/missed something on pre-flight inspection.  If a plane gets knocked down by the weather - that's ultimately considered "poor pilot judgement" because the pilot didn't ask to be routed around the weather to avoid the potential.  Mid-air collision with another plane? Definately considered "pilot error" since we're supposed to be checking out the windows for any close air traffic - and correct our course to Avoid, even if the ATC is a doof and doesn't notify us of the traffic or has us on a collision heading.  (Sometimes not so easy to do when flying in the weather - which is why I rarely do, even though I'm rated for it - it takes a lot of trust that ATC is gonna stay on top of things and not have a momentary screw up and give you a wrong heading to avoid other inbound traffic.)  Byrd strike?  Much the same as mid-air w/plane - the pilot should have seen and avoided.  Although a lot of the time if you're in certain portions of the country with a lot of restricted air space, avoiding isn't an option.
 
A lot of these are clearer issues when dealing with small planes and VFR (visual flight rules) rather than IFR (instrument flight rules) - especially since the airlines all operate pretty much EVERY flight under IFR and a very specific subsection of the FARs.  There are rules that apply to them that don't apply to the rest of us.  There are clauses which specifically delegate certain portions of normal PIC authority (last time I checked - I've never spent a lot of time reading up on the sections of the FARs that deal strictly with airline operations because they simply don't apply to me.)
 
Frankly - he Could be keeping his mouth shut more out of Embarassment than out of modesty or because he was ordered to do so.  He showed a great deal of skill in pulling off that ditching - but no, it wasn't a miracle, and no, he wasn't necessarily Told to keep his mouth shut. (Although that's common practice when there's an ongoing investigation, the NTSB tends to be tightlipped until it's final findings are in.)



MarsBonfire -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/15/2009 9:42:23 AM)

Just chalk this thing up to the usual media coverage arc:

Someone does something heroic.

The media (mostly TV) covers the heroic act, and the US falls in love with them.

The Story begins to age, and less interest is shown in the hero. (15 minutes of fame)

In an effort to keep the story going, and to fill air time, the media (mostly TV) looks into the hero's background and rakes up anything questionable.

The hero is then turned into an object of nactional scorn and revulsion.

It's a cycle.
Remember the guy who found the pipe bomb at the olympics? Same thing.

He finds a bomb and worans people. Hooray!

Suddenly he is suspected of planting the bomb himself, just so he could become a "celebrity". Boo hiss!

He goes to court, and is vindicated of any wrong doing.

All the American public remembers is that he, the hero, was suspected of planting the bomb.

Considering this sort of thing happens all the time, why would anyone ever seek out publicity for a heroic act? In the end your life would just be turned upside down for nothing. You'd end up being cast as a villian, or have your deepest personal secrets spread out for the US to look over and judge.

I feel for Capt. Sully. He still will be raked over the coals for weeks if noth months to come. All for the "crime" of doing his job perfectly, and saving his passengers and crew.
It's just another example of how things have become fucked up in this country.



UncleNasty -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/15/2009 10:23:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Just chalk this thing up to the usual media coverage arc:

Someone does something heroic.

The media (mostly TV) covers the heroic act, and the US falls in love with them.

The Story begins to age, and less interest is shown in the hero. (15 minutes of fame)

In an effort to keep the story going, and to fill air time, the media (mostly TV) looks into the hero's background and rakes up anything questionable.

The hero is then turned into an object of nactional scorn and revulsion.

It's a cycle.
Remember the guy who found the pipe bomb at the olympics? Same thing.

He finds a bomb and worans people. Hooray!

Suddenly he is suspected of planting the bomb himself, just so he could become a "celebrity". Boo hiss!

He goes to court, and is vindicated of any wrong doing.

All the American public remembers is that he, the hero, was suspected of planting the bomb.

Considering this sort of thing happens all the time, why would anyone ever seek out publicity for a heroic act? In the end your life would just be turned upside down for nothing. You'd end up being cast as a villian, or have your deepest personal secrets spread out for the US to look over and judge.

I feel for Capt. Sully. He still will be raked over the coals for weeks if noth months to come. All for the "crime" of doing his job perfectly, and saving his passengers and crew.
It's just another example of how things have become fucked up in this country.


I remember other things about him. Namely that he was unjustly accused, and was unjustly "convicted" by the PTB and the media. His life turned to shit because he did his job. His name is Richard Jewell.



Uncle Nasty



thornhappy -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/15/2009 4:38:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK Thorn we have several possibilities, two days before there were not enough birds, then there were.

I don't mean to make it oversimplistic, but there is an air filter on your car engine. If these engines are more susceptible to bird guts, shouldn't something be done about it ? I understand the enormous amount of air they take in, thus causing difficulties in designing any kind of screen or filter, but once you put a Man on the moon you should be able to handle a flock of geese.


Filters couldn't be done (not enough airflow), screens tend to ice and screw up airflow into the engine face.

Could you design an engine to take a flock of geese?  Sure, but no one could afford it!  And it probably would weigh too much for the airframe.  It's like making a passenger car able to take an IED.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
As I said, EVERY plane crash should be investigated, and if it is found to be a fifteen cent transistor made in bumfict Argentina or a $14,000 Bosch injector, we should know.


They ARE investigated, even the ones involving General Aviation.  Along with pipeline accidents, major automobile accidents, rail accidents, and marine accidents. (There's a commercial agency that investigates chemical plant accidents.) Term, you can go read the reports on teh intarwebs (see the NTSB web site.)  This one's going to be a challenge due to the fire on the ground, but the recorders are in really good shape; they're already talking about the data they're finding. 

It usually is a year to the final report.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Every question about the technicalities are likely to remain unanswered, but at the end, what is sacred ? Company Man, ex-military, would do nothing against his country, which would include hurting our export business or or transpartation, if the theorist's theory is true, can you really accuse the Man ?

The problem is that no matter how much engineering data comes up in the investigation, someone will come up with a conspiracy about it.  There's a ton of forensic engineering about the collapse of WTC1 and 2, but a veritible shitload of conspiracy theorists, most of whom have no experience or even a few classes in mechanical engineering.

thornhappy, with steam coming out her ears....



Termyn8or -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/16/2009 12:50:01 PM)

fr

Ariz, good points. You shouldn't call me a troll though, I specifically stated that I was not buying into conspiracy theories and also refused to cite the article because of the way it was written.  In other words, trying to invite conversation of that, but not induce it with anything accusational. Actually I am suspicious of alot of things, even the census, but I don't bother with it. My paraphrased question about Sully's silence meant nothing more than what it asked. It was more about loyalty and such, rather than a coverup. Don't believe I buy into every conspiracy theory put in fron of me, I don't. Asling a question is not quite the same as making an assertion.

Peach, agreed. Just as a truck driver is expected to do a walkaround and make sure all the lights work and there is air in all the tires. But how could he tell if the main bearing #3 is worn, or that the main valve on the brake pedal is about to get clogged up ? He can't.

Which brings us to the question of vulnerability. That plane did have compressor stalls just two days before. Now was that caused by birds, but they were smaller birds so it recovered and kept running ? Or does it just happen ? I would imagine these engines have eaten more than one bird, but like if one sparrow was sucked in, it would just be "processed" and come out flame broiled ground sparrow, until it turened into ashes in the exhaust.

I am aware of the fact that these engines take in an enourmous volume of air, there is no doubt that a filter would not be an easy thing to design. But it wouldn't be a filter like in the car. The way I envision it, what might work is a bullet type shaped cage. The main ribs on it would be lineal, running from the point at the front, to the actual air inlet. Lateral support members would be underneath so as not to impede these terrorist birds from sliding off. It really wouldn't be a filter so much as a cage like extention. Shaped like a bullet, birds would be deflected, it might kill them, but really if they get sucked in they are dead anyway. Maybe I'll make a drawing of the concept and find some FTP to throw it up so you can actually see what I mean. A half decent aluminum alloy should work, which will keep the weight down.

I understand there are problems in designing such a thing, but as one of the world leaders in such things, and the fact that currently a flock of geese can kill like a hundred people, I think it should be looked into.

I guess we'll see what they say in about a year, of course by then the memory will have died in most people's minds (if any) and this thread will be dead. The results will probably be on the net, but not on your TV news.

Oh, and don't laugh about the #3 main bearing on the truck. If that engine locks up, and you are going downhill in bad weather, that means you can't use the jake brake, which uses engine compression to slow the truck. That's the loud noise you hear when they are going downhill. In bad weather it allows the drive wheels to turn and thus have some traction, whereas applying the footbrake might cause the trailer's wheels to lock up, possibly resulting in a jacknife situation. No fun at all like in W VA down those hills.

So how is the pilot or driver to know these impending failures ? It would be ridiculous to require the driver or pilot to inspect everything, it simply can't be done. The only answer really might be an improved design.

It may be as simple as putting a prop on the thing, not for propulsion, just to grind anything up before it gets into the intake. I just believe that with all we can do, we can't seem to beat that vulnerability, incredulously. Thinking about it, AF1 probably has the same vulnerability. I guess I just find it difficult to believe that nobody can come up with a valid solution.

T



LaTigresse -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/16/2009 2:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

So, did we ever decide who was on the grassy knoll? [8|]


Everyone knows it was Marilyn, silly!!!

She was aiming for Jackie.

She is now residing in a 2 bedroom bungalow, in Tupelo, with Elvis.



thornhappy -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/16/2009 3:42:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

All I know about engines is you have to turn a key to start them.  My question is this.  Passengers, I beleive, saw flames coming out of the engine.  Is that normal for a compression failure..or do the engines just choke and stop running?

If you suck in a bunch of debris (aka birds) and you do enough damage, you'll get flames out of an engine.  They couldn't have seen flames for long, because most said the engines died pretty quick.

You can get flme from compressor stalls, but it's a transient thing.



Termyn8or -> RE: Not to sully "Sully" in any way (2/16/2009 9:35:45 PM)

I would add that some first class passengers saw flames, isn't that toward the front of the plane ? Seeing flames from the front of the engine I would think is alot worse then seeing them from the back.

Now understand that most people might think that as soon as takeoff is achieved everyone can relax, but that is not entirely true. It takes some time for the plane to climb to the desired cruising altitude. During that interval the engines are working hard, like a truck going up a hill. To me, engineering wise it would seem to be the least likely time for a compessor stall, the engine is aspirating heavily, this should not be a problem, unless of course there is something I don't know. If the air flow is unimpeded and the engine is revved up and producing alot of thrust, I just don't see how this could be the case. That is unless maybe injesting too much geese matter, or if high air density causes it to lock because the engine just can't process it fast enough. The latter I find hard to believe.

What if those engines failed at cruising altitude and speed ? The results probably would not be as pleasant, but also, I think it would be less likely to happen, because of the altitude and the fact that they would have throttled back. Then the demands are not so great, of course until it comes time to land.

I am no expert by any means, but I made it through enough school to where they let me into those classes, and I actually know how to fly a plane or helicopter but have never done it. I mean like knowing how to drive without having tried it. This pedal does this, that lever does that and so forth. If a pilot were to drop dead all the sudden I probably would be a good choice to put in the cockpit to be "talked down". But this is more on the engineering end. Actually flying the thing is a whole different story I know. I just know what the controls do, once I find them that is. But when it comes to the machine involved I am not so lame.

Other than a flock of geese, what can stall the compressor ? Hitting a pocket of high or low air pressure ? What about precipitation, and that might not mean it's raining, just like some people who get high efficiency furnaces have to pull a vent ube up the chimney because it "rains" in it.

I know the atmospher is affected by jet engines, I have been to Night of Fire at Norwalk racetrack with a pit pass. I knoiw these were very small engines, as jet  engines come, but I did experience the exhaust. I know there is alot of air being moved. In fact I thin they actualy let us get too close,  but like I cared.

Even those eensty jet engines they retrofitted to cars, I don't think your canary, even including his cage would stop one.

T



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