RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life..

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MsDonnaMia -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/21/2009 5:38:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsKittyBlack quote: ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia last time I checked, we weren't talking about the transgendered crowd, we're talking about typical female and male behavior, right? At least I was. I also never said men weren't needed. Of course they are! I LOVE men! They are useful for a lot of things, of course. And... send them to the slaughter house? Boy, talk about taking something and running with it, lol. Masculine and male identified are two different things. And yet you still cannot explain a lesbian situation. Besides you're the one who said men are "disposable" No kidding. I'm talking about males, not "bois" or "lesbians". And yes.. compared to women, men are the more disposable sex. Sorry!

hardbodysub -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/21/2009 6:51:24 PM)
quote: find it quite ridiculous that a lot of people seem to think superiority has to do with your gender and not your brain Agreed. To paraphrase MLK, I have a dream ... of a day when men and women are judged not by the shape of their chromosomes, but by the content of their character.

XYisInferior -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/21/2009 7:47:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama I am not a female supremacist myself, but I do think there is just as much validity to this worldview as there is to any other. I entered that material into this thread because I thought it might be helpful to contribute some scientific and historical facts associated with matriarchal, matrilineal and egalitarian societies in real life. That's really about the size of it. I just want to say that the post was very much appreciated, Shakti. Though by your own words you are not a Female Supremacist, much of what you've written touched upon some very good points about matriarchal philosophy / societal views. You likewise touched upon some truisms regarding the caricaturization of Female Supremacy as merely a "fetish". Good thoughts.

stella41b -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/21/2009 8:17:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane I'm not interested in what happened/happens in some primitive cultures, nor in some concept that men hunt or fight because they are more "expendable", or need more ptotein. I could tell that from reading the entire posting. quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane These behaviors are purely evolutionary. No shit Sherlock? quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane [The man is the best hunter, and the women is too busy having and raising children, since with humans, it takes so many years for the offspring to mature. And the women were too busy to defend the nest or go out scavenging for food too? Who taught the young to fend for themselves and hunt? The local community gorilla? quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane We survived only because men were able to hunt and kill; and because women were able to give birth and raise children. Yeah right, and the men got to the prey much faster than the tigers, lions, hunting dogs, and all the other large carnivores because they could run on two legs. They were also adept at giving the prey a good old punch on the nose and so didn't need claws or sharp teeth. With larger prey of course they employed the swift kick in the bollocks, karate style in the case of woolly mammoths. quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane Thse roles were determined by natural selection, and it was the physical dominance and aggresson of the males, and their freedom from child care, which enabled men to totally dominate societies up until less than 100 years ago. You know it's amazing how much you can learn about evolution from movies such as Tarzan, Daktari, King Kong and Planet of the Apes. If you were taught this stuff at school I'd seriously consider legal action with lots of compensation.

Observer20 -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/22/2009 9:46:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia quote: ORIGINAL: newgirlswitch quote: ORIGINAL: MsDonnaMia I don't know..Empress Wu and bloody Mary weren't saints, ya know. Women can be cruel too! [:)] Am I a female supremacist? Yes. I don't need stacks of science books to tell me the female is primary and the male is secondary, though. that's not too hard to figure out if you have eyes and a brain and use them in the real world. I agree with you and I am curious to if you could explain your views on the non-scientifc jargon. Like why do you think women are superior in the real world? Well, it doesn't take too much common sense if you look around! Men are always chasing after us. Not to say women don't go after guys.. but you can't deny men are usually the ones who chase, buy gifts, spend money on us and so on much more. As far as the men being the secondary sex and stuff..there's a primitive way of looking at it: when a lion attacks the village its the men who risk and sacrifice themselves to defend us. We are the half of the species who carries and bears the child, and we need protecting. This is instinctual in men and a clue in nature about which sex is more disposable. They do a lot of the hard, laborous work in society, too. That's why men are so yummily strong. [:)] ya don't need science to spell it out in black and white for you to conclude all that. You'd think you would be a little more appreciative of those facts, but no, you just use it to bash us. You seem like such a nice catch.

Tavane -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/22/2009 10:35:59 PM)
Stella41B: Have you ever spent more than five minutes studying human evolution? Apparently not, since there are hundreds of studies and programs which have examined these things, and dealt with the "issues" you raise, which are only issues to somebody who has no idea what the history of human evolution and global dispersal is about. We know how early man hunted, and killed predators and prey, and with what kinds of weapons and tactics (such as driving mammoths off cliffs with fire and spears), and using spears with sleeve extenders to obtain much more velocity. Obviously the man taught his sons to hunt. The daughters learned to raise kids and deal with the food the man brought back, and to work in local fields with crops. That's not to say females couldn't fight to defend their family, but humans have no natural weapons, so an unarmed woman can't defend herself against a man, whereas a female bear can defend herself. The male can kill her, but he'll get hurt. Female lions don't even try to defend their cubs when a new male or males take over the pride, since the first thing they do is kill the cubs, so the females will come into heat and have cubs from these new males. Hyenas can drive female lions from a kill when they outnumber them by 3 or 4 to 1, but if a single adult male lion appears and enters the fight, we have dead hyenas and the lions have their kill back. Primates are no different. Males dominate the females totally, and do the killing and fighting. The advent of modern weapons has made females the equal of any males, but with very primitive weapons, it was a different story. There are no African or other cultures I've ever heard of where females did fighting and hunting, except the Amazons, who apparently did exist, but we don't know much about them. We've had some famous female warriors, like Boudica, and there were some females who were superb swordswomen with the lighter dueling weapons of their era, and could kill males, but they were rare. I'm confident that pioneer women were very good fighters. They did have access firearms, and often the family was alone, in a hostile land, or with not many other families. We don't see that in films, but it would have been logical and necessary. Women can shoot as well as men, and Annie Oakley was one of the greatest shots in history. As for primitive man, however, I've never seen any evidence that women were involved in hunting or fighting. They certainly would have been if their home was attacked, but not otherwise. I don't know why you seem to be resistant to this massive body of evidence.

taurusonthebeach -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/23/2009 10:57:08 AM)
to LaTigresse... comes in to give Her a hug, long time no see, hoping all is well in Your world :) (She said: "Oh, and trust me in this........there is no way you, or anyone else on these forums has the ability to upset me." ) i have known You for how long now? well, pretty long. ...and that is a true statement there :)

properlyobedient -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 8:20:52 AM)
With all proper respect, I have come to really hate this whole "primitive people's" argument. I suppose it comes from certain Wicca apologists who want to show a primitive or historical basis for their faith and in so doing, at least to my mind, overstated the known facts. Honestly, to me it isn't a matter of the origins of female authority, but the future of it. However, just because I love history and believe I really can make an argument that Stella makes some good points, I will throw in my two cents and hope nobody flames me too badly. Speaking of prehistoric primitive societies, all we really have is conjecture and speculation. Anthropologists make guesses about how these societies existed, but they really don't know. The same "evidence" can be interpreted in multiple ways. Thus, the best guesses come from how contemporary primitive societies exist. Even there there are questions of just how isolated these examples are and thus how much they have been affected by modern society. Thusly, at least to my mind, the answer to the whole question of the role of women in primitive society is difficult to assess. On the one hand, we have examples from various societies where women are treated rather badly and with little respect. On the other, we have examples where the ultimate power lies with women. An example of this latter view would be the traditionalist Iroquois, where women chose the leaders and had considerable influence in decision-making. Historically, one can point to some societies and say that women were weaker than men and treated accordingly. On the other hand, one can also point to Celtic societies where women were as likely to engage in battle as men. Among the early Scots (Picts), there is evidence to suggest that women were very likely to engage in warfare and were highly revered as leaders. One can look to the example of Queen Boadicea to see how eagerly men and women followed a woman warlord and leader. The fact that she lost the battle notwithstanding, she certainly led troops and was recognized as the high leader. My argument, though, with all of the above is that I do not see the relevance of it. The issue is not whether there was some golden past age of feminine authority and supremacy, but whether such a thing is conceivable or even preferable as a future state. Of course, I recognize female supremacy as a reality and a goal in my own life, but the question is whether it is possible (or even desirable) for it to be universal. I would prefer to debate that point over whether there ever was an age where women ruled supreme. But, just for the record, the answer is that women HAVE been part of the ruling elite and on an individual basis have been the leaders throughout history.

XYisInferior -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 4:29:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: properlyobedient Honestly, to me it isn't a matter of the origins of female authority, but the future of it. That really is an excellent point. There is plenty the past can teach us, but the future remains to be written. From what I can tell thus far, the qualities of the Female sex fair quite well in contemporary society.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 5:09:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: properlyobedient With all proper respect, I have come to really hate this whole "primitive people's" argument. I dislike the use of the word "primitive" as well. However, I'd strongly disagree that anthropology and archaeology are "just guessing", or that all notions of equality or matriarchy in the historic and prehistoric record are "overstatements" motivated by a Wiccan religious worldview. The problem with some of the ideas presented by posters on this thread who are in their sixties is that they are referencing research that is very badly out of date. There have been a lot of paradigms in paleoanthropology and archaeology over the decades. Some of them have been quite influential--this doesn't mean that they were correct and that they have since gone unchallenged. As for whether historical and prehistorical facts are relevant? I would argue that they are. How we construct our past is very intimately entwined with how we view our present and how we create our future. The reason that female authority, leadership, martial prowess etc. are important to document in our past is that if we allow these realities to be obliterated from public memory, it will be entirely too easy to claim that they never were because they never could be. Make no mistake that agenda-driven male scholars willfully erase powerful women from history at every opportunity. The Catholic monks who kept the annals of Ireland deliberately tried to expunge a Queen who ruled half the island. She was a contemporary of Elizabeth I--and if it wasn't for the chroniclers of Elizabeth's reign, we would never have heard of her.

Tavane -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 6:40:10 PM)
I've seen two terrific programs on Boudica, who was the most famous female warrior in history.I don't normallycount queens, since they are power figures as a result of politics and lineage, rather than "earning" their place at the top, but Queen Elezibeth was an amazing woman, in a totally male dominated era. Steven Pressfield is a favorite novelist of mine. His "Gates of Fire" about Theromoplyae is one of my favorite novels, and equally well I love his "Last Of The Amazons" where he creates his own version of this famous nation of warrioresses, and his imagination is just incredible. He really makes you want to believe in them, and hope that somehow they were like that. Incredibly savage and yet seething with honor, peerless horsewomen, and their whole lives were dedicated to battle and hunting and living with the land. Their god was the sky, and they wanted always to live and sleep under it, and despised cities, with their filth, where people were strangers to each other, and where women were virtual slaves to men. They call themselves "tal kyrte" which means "the free" in their language, and not only held their own, but all male tribes/nations feared them. There is a terrific debate which ensues when Theseus (whose men were stranded in Amazon lands), is debating "civilization/democracy" vs. the savage Amazon life/values with Eleuthera, who is one of what is called the High Trikona of the nation. This takes place in front of thousands of people. These are bonds of three women who are lovers for life. Her main lover is Antiope, the war queen of the Amazons, and the heart of their nation. When she and Theseus fall in love with each other at first sight, it's apparent to Eleuthera, who had sensed evil when she knew these men had arrived, before she even saw them. It's a very interesting discussion on their respective ways of life and philoshies, and Eleuthera demands that Antiope refute Theseus's arguments, to try to drive a wedge between them. Antiope's speech is superb. Pressifeld is the most eloquent writer I've ever encountered. She finishes with; "And if you would gainsay me, " she addressed Theseus, "declaring that the men you have brought with you from Athens feel bereft upon these shores and pine in their hearts for home, I challenge you to command them now, before the witness of this host, to form again into their companies and embark upon their ships. They will revolt, and you know it! They are happy here, as you are." This book is the ultimate in Girl Power. His Amazons are among the most imaginative and admirable fictional creations I've ever seen, and I've read that novel at least three times. It has nothing to do with male submission. They are warriors without peer, against any men, anywhere. For anyone who enjoys adventure, and history, with some love thrown in, this is an amazing novel. It's much more myth than history, but we have enough historical evidence of the Amazons that they seem to have existed, and that's all Pressfield needed to create a truly unforgettable society and novel. In River God, by Wilbur Smith, we meet the fictional Lostris, Queen of Upper Egypt, from the time she is a teenager until she dies as a middle aged woman. The main character is a eunuch named Taita, who is her slave, and he tells the story in the first person. It's a terrific novel. His love for her is absolute, despite that it's devoid of eroticism. His former cruel master had caused his penis to be removed as well as being castrated, when Taita had been a younger slave boy, but he's an amazing character, and is in two sequels to that novel. Lostris loves Taita, who pretty much raised her, and gives him his freedom, in front of others, and Taita is so crushed that she is astonished, and asks him what is wrong, and what he wants, and he tells her she can only make amends by revoking that freedom, and promising never to even consider giving him his freedom again. It would have separated them, and she hadn't considered that. She immediately realizes her incredible thoughtlessness, and vows to him that she will keep him as her slave forever, no matter what. It's about incredible love, rather than lust, though she has plenty of that for Tanus, a handsome warrior. There aren't many women who were such leaders, but there were some. Boudica as an amazing woman.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 8:05:44 PM)
My point is that there were probably far more women who were "such leaders" than were ever recorded by an all-male literary caste. And even in the cases where they WERE recorded, those records were often lost in the hands of an all-male, extremely misogynistic religious caste who were the sole curators of the historical record in the West for centuries. This is to say nothing of information from other cultures that people willfully choose to ignore. Female participation and leadership in naval warfare and piracy is particularly well documented throughout the world. There are literally dozens of famous female generals in Chinese military history, and five different martial arts schools are said to have been founded by women, including Wing Chun, White Crane, etc. As for Amazons--I have more than a passing familiarity with the subject of the Greek depictions of female warriors from 750 BCE to 323 BCE or so. If I was to pick one story as the most moving, it would probably be the duel between Achilles and Penthesilea at Troy. Theseus is a hero of the post-Persian War era, and Athenian misogyny was on the rise during that period, along with other forms of spear-rattling and chest-beating.

stella41b -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 8:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane Stella41B: Have you ever spent more than five minutes studying human evolution? Apparently not, since there are hundreds of studies and programs which have examined these things, and dealt with the "issues" you raise, which are only issues to somebody who has no idea what the history of human evolution and global dispersal is about. quote: ORIGINAL: Tavane I don't know why you seem to be resistant to this massive body of evidence. Nice try again Tavane, but I'm not falling for it. You obviously don't know where I'm coming from, you're not interested in finding out, just make your assumptions and a pretty insulting inference in your response. This time you get the white flag. This is about evolution, a secondary topic to the one of the thread and while I made my mistakes on the other thread I'm not about to be party to the destruction of this one arguing over a digression to the main topic. The basis of my earlier posting here was the theories put forward in the book 'The Naked Ape' by Desmond Morris. I tried to put my point across in a light-hearted way. It seems I've failed, and if you were offended I'm truly sorry. If that gave you enough justification to insult my intelligence in response, then okay, so be it. That's where I leave this posting, and this thread.

submaleinzona -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/24/2009 10:35:14 PM)
Hi, I'm new here, so I hope it's okay to throw in my 2¢. I've been giving this subject quite a deal of thought in recent weeks. I had similar experiences as the original poster of this thread mentioned, although not so much with sports. I just kind of felt like I was marked as someone who could be easily teased and ridiculed by the girls. That always felt a bit strange, but I never really quite understood it. With other boys, it was different, because even if they saw me as a pushover, it would usually lead to a fight, and I didn't generally back down. But I would never fight a girl. I was raised to believe that girls can hit boys, but boys can't hit girls. Boys can hit boys, and sometimes, it's expected that that's what we should do. I also remember when women's liberation was the big issue of the day. Growing up in the 1960s and 70s was a rather confusing time. The old folks and the "squares" of the time couldn't figure it out, but I was just starting out and trying to figure out what in the heck I was just born into. It seemed like there was a war between men and women that never really seemed to end. Someone in this thread mentioned Archie Bunker, and that was one show I watched quite frequently as a kid. Television can taint one's perception at an early age. Men who were against women's liberation were sometimes labeled as "male chauvinists," and sometimes they were derided as having a "caveman" mentality. I remember when it was far more prevalent in public discussion than it is now. But thinking on that, if a male-dominated society would be a "caveman" society, then wouldn't a civilized society be evidence of a gradual withering away of that? Men are heavily socialized to do everything for their women and children, even if they have to walk through fire or make the ultimate sacrifice. In any society, men are more expendable anyway. I don't remember where it's from, but there's an old line that goes, "Why do men march off to war? Because the women are watching." We're all raised with the idea of protecting women from any harm and rescuing the damsel in distress. I never really thought that a male-dominated society considered women to be "livestock" at all, but rather, something to be cherished and protected at all costs. With power comes responsibility, and abusing one's power is an abomination. That's where the notion of women restraining male power and stabilizing it - which is why it's considered so vitally important in our society that candidates for high office be married. It's also how it was if you wanted to move up in any business or firm, especially in the old days. You had to be married. Of course, the whole idea was that it would lead to the perfect life, just like on "Leave it to Beaver." But apparently it wasn't all that perfect after all. Oh well, I'm starting to ramble.

LadyMerrisa -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 9:33:32 AM)
Well, women WAS considered to be a livestock during past centuries. They didn’t have rights to participate in political live of their society, they didn’t have rights to inherit family fortune. Almost all decisions relevant to woman’s life was made by their male kin. And nobody seemed to believe, that woman has her own sense and she can take care of herself. Girls wasn’t educated as well as boys, simply because men from the past considered them to be less inteligent and less able to crative thinking, than boys are. So girls just had to read, write, play piano and draw to be called ”well-educated”. And their major role was limited to capture a good husband and bear him a son. If this is male ”protection” over women, than thank you very much, I don’t want to be protected like that, hehe. But times have changed and fortunately, most people seem to believe in gender equality. And I think we shouldn’t build another theory to support effect of ”sex superiority” (no matter if we speak about male or female...).

LadyMerrisa -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 9:57:52 AM)
And please, guys, do not use your own interpretation of scientific research results, to estimate value of human being, according to her/his gender. If feeling of inferiority to woman makes some of you happy and fulfilled as a submissive, that's just fine. But don't try to generate some artificial theories, which in your personal mind, should be commonly accredited as an "Absolute Truth" [;)] Just do what makes you happy and don't convert other to your way of thinking. And everything will be fine [;)]

XYisInferior -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 11:51:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMerrisa And please, guys, do not use your own interpretation of scientific research results, to estimate value of human being, according to her/his gender. If feeling of inferiority to woman makes some of you happy and fulfilled as a submissive, that's just fine. But don't try to generate some artificial theories, which in your personal mind, should be commonly accredited as an "Absolute Truth" [;)] Just do what makes you happy and don't convert other to your way of thinking. And everything will be fine [;)] While at this point this is neither here nor there in this thread, if you did the research, Lady M, you'd find much of the data presented previously is not theory, but fact (or darn good supposition). Pulling the facts—be they sociological, scientific or simply empirical—in to a cohesive argument for Female Supremacy is a matter of individual choice and conviction, of course. Indeed, to each their own. My only contention in this thread was the idea Female Supremacy is a groundless "fetish". Some may wish to dismiss it that way, and that is of course their right, but I, not surprisingly, feel there is a very good argument for it in more ways than one.

LadyMerrisa -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 1:07:15 PM)
Well, I've studied biotechnology, so I'm really quite well oriented in genetics, embriology and physiology...And I believe, that all proofs you've presented here, demonstrating one thing: there are many differences between males and females (or Females, if you want [;)]). There is no doubt, that there is a lot of physiological, biological and genetic advanages and disadvantages of both sexes. But it doesn't appeal to me as an evidence of superiority of women, and inferiority of men [;)] This is, of course, my own opinion. You have yours, and I think it's perfectly fine. But the fact is, that you can't convince everybody here, that you're right. People are often very cautious with everything, that includes concept of gender superiority, supremacy movements, and so on. And they tend to disbelief in pure intentions of supremacy followers.

XYisInferior -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 2:20:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMerrisa There is no doubt, that there is a lot of physiological, biological and genetic advanages and disadvantages of both sexes. But it doesn't appeal to me as an evidence of superiority of women, and inferiority of men [;)] This is, of course, my own opinion. Well of course. Opinions are interesting to share, especially from those who have committed to an extreme point of view. I know I'm always interested to know how they got there, and why. Fostering an environment in which we can discuss both points of view without cattiness or ridicule would be ideal.

LadyMerrisa -> RE: Experiences of female superiority in real life.. (2/25/2009 2:53:55 PM)
Yeah, it would be ideal. But if a lot of people in one place have extremely different beliefs and opinions...well, it's sometimes hard to stick to this non-cattiness-non-ridicule rule (as you've experienced here on yourself :-P). But after all, haveing and sharing opinions with others, is still something positive and in its own way, constructive (for example, we can learn how to stay self-controlled when cattiness is coming alond, right ^-^?).

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