RE: No take-a de money!!! (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 7:53:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
How fast can you say "three trillion dollars war"?

Ah yes, you have double-standards... fair enough. 

Three trillion, funded and approved by Congress and President Obama, and counting, and expanding...
quote:

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama approved adding some 17,000 U.S. troops for the flagging war in Afghanistan, his first significant move to change the course of a conflict that his closest military advisers have warned the United States is not winning.
"This increase is necessary to stabilize a deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, which has not received the strategic attention, direction and resources it urgently requires," Obama said in a statement.
Source: Obama's War Escalation

You're right troop deployment in a foreign country is a big waste of money. Another policy of the Bush Administration being followed by President Obama. 'Bush Stimulus Part II' just signed, more troops shipped off-shore; damn maybe to get 'CHANGE!' Senator McCain should have been elected.

But of course, it's all 'good' now, and you can rationalize your "double-standard".




kittinSol -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 7:59:17 AM)

And you can continue fighting windmills :-) . 




Mercnbeth -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 8:30:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

And you can continue fighting windmills :-) . 

As hypocritical as it is to point to money spent in the past but excuse money being spent now under the control of a new Administration; I am more surprised that you compare consideration for the lives of 17000 troops, put in harms way by a President who vowed to "Bring the troops home!"; to "fighting windmills". These occasions do serve to expose hypocrisy don't they.

I never thought you'd be a 'Hawk' in support of war. Amazing what a political label change for the President will do to some people.

Is this similarly, a "necessary public investment" of blood and you are not upset and "cautiously optimistic" that none will be disabled or die in Afghanistan as a result of President Obama's deployment?




kittinSol -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 8:35:06 AM)

See, Sanity fears I make this all about him, and now you're making this all about me. Love is all around [8|] .

Do you agree, then, that those who voted against the bill ought to not take a cent from it?




corysub -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 8:41:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

And you can continue fighting windmills :-) . 


While your guy Obama "builds them" . Kitten?  ...[sm=lalala.gif]  :)







kittinSol -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 8:48:35 AM)

Do you think those who voted against the bill should stick to their guns and refuse to accept those public funds? 




Mercnbeth -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 8:49:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

See, Sanity fears I make this all about him, and now you're making this all about me. Love is all around [8|] .

Do you agree, then, that those who voted against the bill ought to not take a cent from it?


Don't try to deflect. It is about your positions and opinions and is it about Sanity's and mine. These are opinions of the facts presented. The facts aren't about you, your opinions regarding those facts are about you. Why not reconcile them? Does it embarrass you, or do you simply lack the confidence and courage to be wrong?

Unlike you and others who don't answer any question when it comes to explaining how what they were against under President Bush is now accepted and admired under President Obama, I'll answer and provide my opinion on the Bill. It's simple really; don't take money while withholding payment into the "rewarding failure program". I don't know if it's possible at the State level, but as governor I'd do my best to try.

How about you trying to enlighten us about your support of the Bush II Stimulus package or the escalation of the Bush war in Afghanistan by the "Bring the Home!" President Obama?

It's not a voice in the wilderness. Turn on CNBC and see the reaction is already starting. Not only States, but individuals are getting tired of the rhetoric and identifying the hypocrisy and illogical actions being taken by this Administration. OBAMA FEEDBACK

At least have the courage to either stand behind your position, or resign yourself that President Obama not only does not represent change, but represents a policy projecting out to failure.

The stimulus already has bankrupted the economy, future generations, and worst, and has no path for recovery.




kittinSol -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 9:00:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Unlike you and others who don't answer any question when it comes to explaining how what they were against under President Bush is now accepted and admired under President Obama, I'll answer and provide my opinion on the Bill. It's simple really; don't take money while withholding payment into the "rewarding failure program". I don't know if it's possible at the State level, but as governor I'd do my best to try.



Inform yourself on individuals' opinions before you make false statements: I was never happy about any of this stimulus bullshit: but sometimes you've got to do things that don't make you happy. In short, the economy is in the shitter because of :

1. a stupid expensive war;
2. insane lending practices by sharks;
3. an outrageous level of corporate welfare.

It's the socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor that's got to go. Bye bye!




Termyn8or -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 9:19:03 AM)

Merc,  I just hope you are an equal opportunity bitcher. I am disappointed, in fact I expected to be. The fact still remains that Bush or McCain would've also signed that bill, albeit with slightly different cuts of pork in it.

My support went to the one who expressed a desire to get out of this war. The only difference is just who gets the money, it was already in the works. It was already going to happen, no matter what the public said or did, it was going to happen. --

Now it has happened, and I am not so sure that not taking the money would be a good idea.  Someone else will be happy to take the money, and everybody has to pay the interest on it (or is that interest on interest by now ?). If I were say governor, and my constituents know they have to take a bite of the shit sandwich, but we didn't get anything out of it because I turned it down, I don't think I would do too well in the next election.

Now if there was a stipulation in there that stated that any monies that are turned down voluntarily are excluded from the overall expenditure, that would be different, but come on. Do you think they would ever do that on either side of the aisle ? And no I am not reading it looking for that, even though at work sometimes I have to sift through an eighteen hundred page technical manual, I am not reading the gobbletygook they write.

However that is a point for a whole different thread, now that I think about it.

Anyway, I don't think we've had a really good President for a very long time, very long. I see no reason to expect different now.

T




Mercnbeth -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 9:22:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Unlike you and others who don't answer any question when it comes to explaining how what they were against under President Bush is now accepted and admired under President Obama, I'll answer and provide my opinion on the Bill. It's simple really; don't take money while withholding payment into the "rewarding failure program". I don't know if it's possible at the State level, but as governor I'd do my best to try.

Inform yourself on individuals' opinions before you make false statements: I was never happy about any of this stimulus bullshit: but sometimes you've got to do things that don't make you happy. In short, the economy is in the shitter because of :

1. a stupid expensive war;
2. insane lending practices by sharks;
3. an outrageous level of corporate welfare.

It's the socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor that's got to go. Bye bye!


All those points, 1-3, are the stated policy of this Administration. So then, you're no longer a supporter of President Obama or his policies. No question mark, because the position you document makes it obvious since; he's expanding deployment of troops, is encouraging financial institutions to resume lending with no stipulated change in the lending policy, and has initiated $800 Billion in corporate welfare. You can't be in support of a President to diametrically opposed to your position.

Not surprised you need to say "bye-bye!" It's a common tactic of many insecure people who say something along those lines in lieu of saying "I am wrong" in the face of facts. 

However, if President Obama's war escalation doesn't change your opinion of him, his polices, or his Administration, at least now the gun icon is appropriate and not so ironic.




BoiJen -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 9:46:34 AM)

My biggest hesitation about voting for Obama (other than knowing individual votes of the public don't get counted for anything other than show) was his stand to bring troops to Afghanistan. A "war" in Afghanistan isn't won by pouring in troop. It's won by select special ops that we hear about afterwards...not this "Well...we're sending more people to die." It doesn't work for me. It's poor military planning and tragic and unneeded waste of life. And...just like the Russians...Afghanistan will bankrupt us.

Now for the stimulus. I'm a fan of social spending...if we put our money into our gov't they better be happy to put their money back into us. I'm not happy about the size of the bill. I'm not happy that the forclosure incentive that Obama signed yesterday doesn't actually reach out to the majority of people who need it and that no one is addressing the fact that many forclosures are also a result of city and state property taxes that have not yet been adjusted from the bubble. There's no reason on earth why a Detroit homewoner should be paying 6 thousand dollars a year in property taxes on a home that's only worth 12 thousand dollars. NONE. I can work with the bank...but the city and the state don't want to hear it and don't give you a break when you need it. Stop rewarding the cities for making people homeless by not being responsibile for keeping accurate records.

Rewarding bad business sucks. Bank Bailout should have had more regulation on the funds and not have been just a perk when Citi group has more than 300 billion in assessts now backed by our tax money on top of the original Bank Bailout. I paid into the system first...I don't care if it was less than the banks, and I think that money should come bak to me before it comes back to the people who are robbing me blind everytime I overdraft on 20 cents.

Yes the American public will be debt for years to come...but like it did during Roosevelt, that debt will not equal homelessness. And I gotta say...having been there...I'd rather be in debt up to my nose with a roof over my head.




Mercnbeth -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 9:47:35 AM)

quote:

Merc,  I just hope you are an equal opportunity bitcher. I am disappointed, in fact I expected to be. The fact still remains that Bush or McCain would've also signed that bill, albeit with slightly different cuts of pork in it.
Term, I hope I'm a consistent and "equal opportunity bitcher"; pragmatic in my position regardless of political party. I think I am, but would just say I'm wrong if it were pointed out otherwise.

There should have been no stimulus package until an audit was conducted. Going in to do 'turn around' work many times in business, I learned the first thing you do isn't change, but observation and auditing. There is no reason that could not have been done in January. Now, with a Trillion dollars committed, its not possible.

The problem was attention was given and resources allocated to dead or dying assets. Using the business model, it would be as the first thing I focused on were the money draining clients at the expense of the money producing clients. There was, and still is albeit dwindling, successful examples of every industry currently in distress. They should have been taken in first for advice, for assurance, and for direction. Focusing on failure insures it will continue. A simple, pragmatic, and historically accurate reflection of reality. 

But again, Term, I don't think I'm smarter than the political powers that be; I know I'm not. That leaves an agenda. It's becoming clear that the goal is to make every US citizen rely on the government for everything. The insidious nature of the alliance of the public employee unions insures that there is a huge voting block that votes for their jobs and enjoys the security of government employment. The fact that the majority of people don't distinguish a public employee union from a private sector union serves the agenda of representing the 'working man'. 

The working man is NOT being served, he's being put to death by these policies. Opportunity for personal advancement is being curtailed. Investment in business, independent of government subsidy and therefor control, is not possible under the current political agenda. 

Any debate on the distinction between parties is silly. To date, not one person has been able to differentiate Obama's stimulus package from Bush, except to note it more expensive. The escalation of troops in Afghanistan serves as another example.

Cuts were the answer. Eliminating duplicity and waste in government bureaucracy was the answer. Letting the failures fail while cultivating the successes was the answer. Much less money would have been needed to assume the liability for existing and retirees pension/benefits program, relieving the auto industry of that albatross, and cutting off the flow with a Union/Management negotiated compromise; than just sending them cash with no plan, or path for success.

Only 30 days, but perhaps already too late to turn it around. The market today is going crazy and a revolt of sorts has been started on two fronts; the successful businesses and business people, and (amazingly) at the grass roots younger generation who still have the ability and desire to think things through. They don't like the future they see and the debt that this Administration plans to lay at their feet. They don't see government bureaucracy as a path for success as a public policy or as a career. They don't see a political label of Democrat or Republican as a reason to rationalize blind, or very dark rose color glass, support. Maybe that's where the glimmer of hope exists.




cjan -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 10:14:14 AM)

merc, why don't you simply answer the question posed by the OP and kitten ? Do you think that States with Republican Senators and Congressmen who voted against the bill should accept the funds or not ? Stay on topic instead of blowing smoke and raising tangential but irrelevant issues. You can do that , just once, can'tcha ?




UncleNasty -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 10:47:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"...I am not reading the gobbletygook they write."



Accountability, accountability, accountability.

Little to any of the legislation presented to congress is read so they've no real or accurate idea what they're voting on.

While some legislation is written by our elected officials quite a bit of it is written by lobbiests paid by industry.

Is it any wonder the peoples interests are not represented?

Uncle Nasty




Sanity -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 11:09:34 AM)


Lobbyists paid by Unions (and other far left organizations), which in turn are now paid by the Federal Government


quote:

While some legislation is written by our elected officials quite a bit of it is written by lobbiests paid by industry.




Sanity -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 11:13:54 AM)


You and Hippie act like it's Obama's money - it isn't. Obama is raping the states, taking future taxpayer's dollars and redistributing it.

If it's there, take it. Why turn down what is essentially your own money if it is being offered?


quote:

Do you agree, then, that those who voted against the bill ought to not take a cent from it?




rulemylife -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 11:32:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Lobbyists paid by Unions (and other far left organizations), which in turn are now paid by the Federal Government



Unions are far left organizations?

When did that happen?

That's going to be news to a lot of people I know who are conservatives and/or Republicans who belong to unions.




UncleNasty -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 11:48:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Lobbyists paid by Unions (and other far left organizations), which in turn are now paid by the Federal Government


quote:

While some legislation is written by our elected officials quite a bit of it is written by lobbiests paid by industry.



Yes, some lobbiests are paid by unions. Some are paid by industry. I have no idea of the numbers or percentages for either.

I don't care really which lobbiests are being paid and writing. I care that our elected officials aren't writing, and further, aren't reading.

Right v Left is, in my opinon, the wrong Us v Them.

Uncle Nasty




kittinSol -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 11:52:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


You and Hippie act like it's Obama's money - it isn't. Obama is raping the states, taking future taxpayer's dollars and redistributing it.

If it's there, take it. Why turn down what is essentially your own money if it is being offered?


quote:

Do you agree, then, that those who voted against the bill ought to not take a cent from it?



Welcome to democracy, Sanity: the state takes money and redistributes it. It's the basis upon which the government functions.




subrob1967 -> RE: No take-a de money!!! (2/19/2009 12:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

it would only be fair play that whoever voted against the stimulus get NOTHING.


Would it be fair for the constituants of the people who voted no, not to have to pay for the damn thing?

That goes for Hippy too, if one's Gov declines the money, can one stop paying taxes used to fund it?

If EVERYONE ends up paying for it, why wouldn't we get something in return? After all redistribution is YOUR side of the isle, not ours.




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