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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

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ORIGINAL: Lockit

How is it that threads about panties... or submission/service submissive's turn into war and gun's?  Relating war and guns to bdsm or kink just doesn't seem to fit.

Women's panties always have a devastating effect on me.

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ORIGINAL: Tavane

Stella41B: I just read your post, and you are entitled to your opinions, but so am I. I didn't attack any person, and do find your kind of posting inconsistent with rational discussion in an attempt to learn. This "I'm offended that you think that" mentality which permeates society in these PC days is frankly rude and isn't going to gain any acceptance by rational people who would like to hear all points of view.

.....................................
Believe what you want, but let others believe what they want, and post about it.

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Tavane

We know that erotic pleasure can motivate people to do almost anything. I can't think of anything else which would possibly motivate a person to want to be a slave for the rest of his life.  Nor can I think of anything which would possibly motivate a person to want to change gender. Nothing could possibly be responsible for such behaviors, ecxept erotic/emotional pleasure, and we all know it, and I've talked to many TS people as good friends, and when I asked them "Be honest. After an orgasm, do you have any interest whatsoever in being a female?" The answer was always, "No."

I don't care about these myths. The only important thing is that people find happiness. However, they do make me laugh, and are generated by the social disapproval of sexual "deviations". I don't want to be a sexual deviate. I'd rather be a confused mixed up person with unexplained gender confusion. We can't do that with submission, since there is no such concept as submission confusion. We know it's purely erotic, and that's fine with us. It should be fine with TG people, but they don't like it, and I really don't care.

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stella41b
This crock of bullshit is just an example of the sort of closed-minded prejudices spread about about the transgendered which influences the way people think, making it much harder for them to gain social acceptance and to progress forward in their transition.

The claim that TG people are doing this for sexual, kinky or erotic reasons is a preposterous one which isn't always necessarily true, and yet this remains one of the biggest issues of prejudice working against those for who are not motivated by such desires, but who are doing what they are doing simply to be themselves.

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Tavane
They will vary infinitely. However, the idea that anything except the irresistible power of erotic pleasure could possibly motivate a person to do something so traumatic, in the face of such social disapproval, makes no sense whatever. What else could it be? There aren't that many powerful desires.

I was minding my own business and suddenly saw panties and guns and had to read this thread. I then came across both of your posts, Tavane and Stella.

I highligted the points I wish to address for you both brought up so much. And, let me say I shall speak from experiences relating to me, so, since I am not TG and cannot speak from the pov I shan't. I will use analogies from my life.

When I read "We know that erotic pleasure can motivate people to do almost anything," from Tavane, I began to think of the root of erotic, which is eros. To me eros is beyond sexual, and yet, I could understand why you, Stella responded with, "The claim that TG people are doing this for sexual, kinky or erotic reasons is a preposterous one which isn't always necessarily true, and yet this remains one of the biggest issues of prejudice working against those for who are not motivated by such desires, " makes total sense to me. You have seen what such ignorance can do to people. My heavens, you have experienced it first hand.

I myself have experienced what such ignorance can do by those who wish to generalize using no other reason than what seems most "logical" to themselves based upon their own life experience. *And* this can, and most often does, cause many problems for others because stereotypes, prejudices and tunnel vision mentalities are formed. Just look at all the disharmony in this world caused by those who cannot, and in some cases will not, attempt to see things from another's point of view. I'm not saying change one's point of view, but try to see things from another's point of view in the hopes of crossing some bridges and bringing more harmony and peace; a connection of souls.

Let me say, I have read many of your posts Stella and have grown to admire you greatly. You come across as a most compassionate woman who tries to see things from each person's point of view and one who also has great respect for people. So, when I read your post, I felt stirred to respond for you have touched not only my humourous side, but also my heart in your posts.

And Tavane, I have not read a lot of your posts, so please forgive me for I do not have as much a feeling about you, but I do know that your are speaking from your heart and from your experience. I wish to honour that.

So, Definition of eros from the free dictionary:
Er·os (rs, îr-)
n.
1. Greek Mythology The god of love, son of Aphrodite.
2. often eros Creative, often sexual yearning, love, or desire: "The new playful eros means that impulses and modes from other spheres enter the relations between men and women" Herbert Gold.
3.
a. Psychiatry Sexual drive; libido.
b. The sum of all instincts for self-preservation.
So, I look at def#1 and see Creative. There is also sexual yearning, love and desire. I know for me, many might say my lesbianism, my submission is driven by sexual desires. It's not. I can shag a man any day and got me eggs off. I want something much deeper than shag and shake. And that is when I look deeper into eros. (Again, I cannot speak as TG, but I think by my using this example I can get my point across.)

I remember reading books by some Jungians. Dark Eros by Thomas Moore comes to mind, as well as many by James Hillman and Masochism: A Jungian view by Lyn Cowan. So, when I look at eros, I see a deep desire, a longing to find the One. And, for me, as for many, this One is not a person. It is a deep connection to what some may call God, others call it Goddess, some call it Nirvana, Buddhahood, Enlightenment, or as John Hagelin terms it, The Unified Field. It is that ever pervasive call to home. And, for me, being lesbian, being submissive, is a tool for me to get there. I like to think of it as tools my soul uses to express myself.

Now, Tavane, I understand that you have met some TGs that said it was about the orgasm. Well, in some schools of thought, orgasms are considered a form of death where we die to being totally in the present moment. It is a death to the ego bound I and that smaller i to the "I" of the One. And, if I am with another (one can do this alone as well as with a partner) then together we let go of our boundaries just long enough to connect in that Unified Field/Bliss/Nirvana. *And* hopefully, we won't think that each is the cause of that blissful state for the other, but rather we realize we were just sharing the ride.

So, in a sense, the way I see it, if one looks at it from that pov, then maybe orgasm is a reason, but not the purely sexual kind. It's the eros of desiring to be one's true self, without the labels; without the judgments; without being lumped into a category.

Now I do find it humourous that in psychiatry, it is limited to sexual drive, libido. But then, the Freudians I have seen in the past, well, they were more in need of help than I. (I saw one at Kaiser in the early 1990s. I was in a suicidal depression and my therapist wanted me on meds. Well, he wanted to focus on if I'd slept with men and my lesbianism. The fact that I was on massive doses of prednisone and vicodin which caused depression did not enter his perverted mind. And I use that word not in the loving way we do for WIITWD, but in a clinical term for he was ill. ) So, you know my opinion of that branch of psychiatry; and it is open to change when I meet one who enlightens my pov.

Ah, but look at def. 3.b. The sum of all instincts for self-preservation. And Stella, please correct me if I am wrong, but is this not something of what you were trying to convey? I know for me, when trying to get others to understand my lesbianism; and with close friends, trying to get them to understand that my submissiveness, my desire to please Her, is not that "thing" that Hollywood portrays, well, I try to instill in them that it is part of my nature, my very essence. It is a way for me to survive in this 3rd dimensional collective reality we call earth.

Now, I won't go into the whole, "Well, really, I am a spiritual being on a human journey, so, in the big picture, I am complete and Whole as "I" am. I am speaking that in order to fulfill my calling in this lifetime, for me to be all that I am and experience what I came upon this planet to complete in order to ascend, then I must experience certain things. And, my lesbianism and submission are part of that. (As well as the physical illness I am healing myself from.)

So, Tavane, when you say, "We know that erotic pleasure can motivate people to do almost anything," and "What else could it be? There aren't that many powerful desires" I agree with you based upon the broader definition of erotic to include the definitions of eros and my longing, my desire to connect with that Creative force that created me. The eternal "I" of who I and i am.

And, when you say, "I don't care about these myths. The only important thing is that people find happiness," I agree with you. Let us all find our happiness and rejoice that others find theirs. *And*, let us all respect the feelings, life choices and point of view of others. *AND*, myths are a very important way of connecting to our quest to satisfy our *eros*. Just watch Joseph Campbell (or read his books). The Power of Myth is most wonderful as well as Mythos. But then, he was speaking of those myths that trigger that *desire* to go *home* to where we came from. And that is being true to ourselves. Let us all follow our bliss and do no harm to others. (Okay, if it's SSC then "beats me!" Thank you Mistress!

And let me end this with a quote by that most famous philosopher, Groucho Marx, "A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. "

Sláinte,
TT

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TG people do it for erotic and emotional pleasure. Nothing else could motivate a person to engage in such a strange and socially disapproved behavior, just as nothing else could motivate a male to be a slave of a female.

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To suggest that TG people are anything like females is not suppored by any evidence of logic.

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I don't think there is any difference between a "TV" and a "TS", in terms of desires.

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Then we have the reality that once you lose your genitals, you are not going to experience those same waves of erotic pleasure that motivated you to do this in the first place, but you can still experience erotic pleasure.

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We know that erotic pleasure can motivate people to do almost anything. I can't think of anything else which would possibly motivate a person to want to be a slave for the rest of his life. Nor can I think of anything which would possibly motivate a person to want to change gender.

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Nothing could possibly be responsible for such behaviors, ecxept erotic/emotional pleasure, and we all know it, and I've talked to many TS people as good friends, and when I asked them "Be honest. After an orgasm, do you have any interest whatsoever in being a female?" The answer was always, "No."

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I don't care about these myths.

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There is no rational or logical reason in the world for a person to change his/her gender. None. So that leaves us with non-rational reasons. These are limited to emotional and erotic reasons.

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If TG people exist whose desire to be female is just as overpowering immediately after an orgasm, then they are different, but frankly I don't believe many such people exist, just as I don't believe that any submissive males exist whose submissive desires are just as powerful right after an orgasm.

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I've talked to scores of TG people, and am one myself. My desires and behaviors are very similar to theirs. There is no reason to believe that my desires are different than theirs. The only difference was that I looked so much more like a female.

I've also known many "TVs" who admitted that they were "TS's" when their wives weren't around, as a matter of desire, and who would tell her how straight they were, but then I'd see them passionately kissing some guy on a dance floor.

I'm not sexually straight or gay. I'm a TG. I'll get excited whenever anyone treats me like a female, whether it's a man or a woman. I only have emotional attraction to females, and they are built for the best sex,

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Stella41B: I just read your post, and you are entitled to your opinions, but so am I. I didn't attack any person, and do find your kind of posting inconsistent with rational discussion in an attempt to learn. This "I'm offended that you think that" mentality which permeates society in these PC days is frankly rude and isn't going to gain any acceptance by rational people who would like to hear all points of view.

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Is this what the majority of male subs offer because they think we want that or is cross dressing, sissy maid on the rise? Or am I out of it?

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ORIGINAL: Tavane

Well, we've made our points, and people can make their own decisions. It's like attacking someone's religion these days. I actually wrote a book about it, about 20 years ago, discussing it in great detail, since it interested me so much, but as time went by, I realized that in this type of thing, as in so many things in life, the people involved have no interest in seeking the truth. They believe what they want to believe, based upon self-interest, or some other reason, and it is pointless to waste time discussing it with them. For others, however, who don't have a vested interest in the subject matter, it's sometimes not pointless, and they might learn something, or at least be able to examine a different point of view. When people attack a person expressing a point of view, or characterize a point of view as somehow unacceptable,  instead of examining the logic, facts, and reasoning expressed which supports that point of view, then I do get bored with it. 

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I realized that in this type of thing, as in so many things in life, the people involved have no interest in seeking the truth. They believe what they want to believe, based upon self-interest, or some other reason, and it is pointless to waste time discussing it with them.