Redistribution of Wealth (Full Version)

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SpinnerofTales -> Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 11:44:52 AM)

Ever since John McCain made Joe the Plumber the poster boy for capitalism, conservatives have been screaming the words "redistribution of wealth" with the same horror as if someone had suggested a nice bowl of roasted puppy covered in baby sauce. And at the risk of interrupting the hysteria, I would like to pose a question.

In 1965, the average top executive earned 24 times the wages that the average worker made. By 2009, the average top executive earned. between 271 times and 431 times the wages earned by the average worker (both ends of the spectrum presented in the interest of fairness). Since 1995. the wages of top executives have increased at a rate %500 faster than the wages of the average worker.

This being the case, my question is: What is this other than a massive redistribution of wealth? The share of the economic pie has been redistributed from the average worker (not the unemployed "losers", the average worker) up to the top executive level. During the last decade, the average wage, adjusted for inflation, has actually fallen.

Since the middle class is the single most important component of any society's continuation, why should the idea of a redistribution of wealth away from the small upper tier to the dying middle class be viewed as dangerous socialism while the redistribution away from the middle class up to the upper tier be viewed as the American dream at work?




MichiganHeadmast -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 12:17:38 PM)

If the pie is big enough and allowed to grow, who gives a shit who makes what?  And when liberals limit the pay of athletes and hollywood icons, then they can talk about limiting CEO pay.



FullCircle -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 12:41:33 PM)

Are athletes and Hollywood icons tax exempt then?



Owner59 -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 12:42:53 PM)

When Hollywood and athletes run the nation`s vital finances and industrial base,maybe then.


If they`re going to take tax payer bail-out money,then they are going to do as they`re told and STFU.


Or,don`t take the money.





SpinnerofTales -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 12:52:46 PM)

quote:

If the pie is big enough and allowed to grow, who gives a shit who makes what? And
quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

If the pie is big enough and allowed to grow, who gives a shit who makes what?  And when liberals limit the pay of athletes and hollywood icons, then they can talk about limiting CEO pay.


If average wages had in any way kept pace with the piece that the top tier are taking, I would have no problem. The phrase is "high tide lifts all boats"...but when the top tier gets a much vaster piece of the pie while the average worker gets effectively less and less, then there is a basic instability that will result in the very meltdown we are experiencing now.




Owner59 -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 12:58:35 PM)

The "who cares" attitude is part of what got us into this financial crisis.

And the so called capitalists<cough> want to pay bonuses to the CEO thieves that lead us there.



hardbodysub -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 1:06:46 PM)

You're right. Period. The right-wing doesn't mind the system being rigged to funnel economic resources (wealth) in the direction they like. But when anyone complains, or talks about evening things out a bit, they scream about the "redistribution" of wealth!



corysub -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 1:14:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ever since John McCain made Joe the Plumber the poster boy for capitalism, conservatives have been screaming the words "redistribution of wealth" with the same horror as if someone had suggested a nice bowl of roasted puppy covered in baby sauce. And at the risk of interrupting the hysteria, I would like to pose a question.

In 1965, the average top executive earned 24 times the wages that the average worker made. By 2009, the average top executive earned. between 271 times and 431 times the wages earned by the average worker (both ends of the spectrum presented in the interest of fairness). Since 1995. the wages of top executives have increased at a rate %500 faster than the wages of the average worker.

This being the case, my question is: What is this other than a massive redistribution of wealth? The share of the economic pie has been redistributed from the average worker (not the unemployed "losers", the average worker) up to the top executive level. During the last decade, the average wage, adjusted for inflation, has actually fallen.

Since the middle class is the single most important component of any society's continuation, why should the idea of a redistribution of wealth away from the small upper tier to the dying middle class be viewed as dangerous socialism while the redistribution away from the middle class up to the upper tier be viewed as the American dream at work?




You posit a case that is not true, that's why it is not a major "redistribution" of wealth!   You are creating a circumstance that is false in that redistribution, by my definition, means to "take from one who creates to one who does not create".  Workers do not create wealth...entreprenours, businessmen, risk takers, inventive people who develop "profitable ideas" create wealth.  Workers create "value" and get paid a "wage" for their services. Managements over the period you use as a "baseline" did a truly outstanding job and no one would have, and no one did, deny them the huge salaries and bonus payments that the stockholders witnessed the Boards of Directors approving.  All of these payments were and still are clearly discussed in 10K and 10Q reports of the public companies.  Again, taking your baseline of 1965, if an investor had invested US$10,000 in an index of the Standard & Poors 500, the most common comp measurement used by professional investors that investment would have grown to almost a$1,000,000 by the end of 2007...Even giving these results a 40-50% haircut for the markets perfomance in 2008 and year to date, it sure beats the hell out of any other "unleveraged"   investment I could think of..dont you agree?  Or, do you think that some worker on a GM assembly line guiding an engine into place from a robot arm should be making.... what...$200,000, $300,000 a year when he could be easily replaced in about three days by a kid with no more than a valid high school diploma and stong work ethics. Of course, now that the auto companies are controlled by Obama and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger maybe they might see those kinds of numbers.   

Class warfare is a populist philosophy that the democrat party holds dear...in fact, it's probably the only thing they have going for them, along with patronizing minorites.  Think about it..they usually win because they are against what a republican is doing..eg..NO MORE BUSH! but themselves are devoid of new ideas. No one, even Barack, had any idea what Obama would do when he opened the door to the Oval Office...although Barack was well trained over the years in a philosophy that denigrated capitalism. The only action they are good at is "taking from the producers and giving to...anyone who would  vote for them."   Big, Major difference this time is that they are in charge of the ship, have had a chance at the plate to develop a Stimulus package that we truly need...and, instead, give us porkie little things...as Schumer describes the legislation.

     http://fc.standardandpoors.com/broker_advisor/assets/sales_aids/pdfs/recession.pdf



awmslave -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 1:39:16 PM)

quote:

Workers do not create wealth...entreprenours, businessmen, risk takers, inventive people who develop "profitable ideas" create wealth.


It is not true: workers create wealth, inventive people create profitable ideas and manage funding, the production and profits.
Redistribution of wealth is one of the moost important aspect of capitalism and it is a big problem. There should be a balance how wealth is distributed.  If workers do not have sufficient disposable income buisness activity will slow down. The system does not set the balance automatically but through small and major crises. Easy credit helps only for a short period and this period ran out for US. The government obviously has a role to play here. Bad news is that in the enviornment of greed the goverment officials join the greed rather than trying to suppress it.



rulemylife -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 1:46:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

If the pie is big enough and allowed to grow, who gives a shit who makes what?  And when liberals limit the pay of athletes and hollywood icons, then they can talk about limiting CEO pay.


Nice spin.  Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!



rulemylife -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 2:01:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub


And you do not think it is class warfare when a President implements a tax policy that gives the majority of tax cuts to the top 10% of taxable incomes in the country?

By the way, can you provide some examples of GM assembly line workers making $200k-$300k a year, as you claim?



thishereboi -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 2:01:42 PM)

You might have a point there, and since I am pretty sure your making more money than I am. I will expect my part of your pay. Let me know where to pick up my check.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 2:09:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Workers do not create wealth...entreprenours, businessmen, risk takers, inventive people who develop "profitable ideas" create wealth.  Workers create "value" and get paid a "wage" for their services. do you think that some worker on a GM assembly line guiding an engine into place from a robot arm should be making.... what...$200,000, $300,000 a year when he could be easily replaced in about three days by a kid with no more than a valid high school diploma and stong work ethics. Of course, now that the auto companies are controlled by Obama and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger maybe they might see those kinds of numbers.   



So you basically are saying that it's perfectly all right for the top tier managers to have their percentage of the pie rise astronomically while the average middle class worker has is wages stagnate or fall, requiring an increasing amount of credit to maintain the standard of living and eventually undermine the middle class entirely. It is also right to reward these executives for their "wealth creation" with tax cuts so that they have to give less of the wealth they "create" because that's good for the country?

Among these wealth creators, by the way, are the geniuses who ran GM, Chysler and Ford, the wunderkinds who started trading in over leveraged credit derivatives, the guys in charge of Enron and the savings and loans ( which received huge amounts of government welfare to bail them out), and all the other fantastic wealth creators who have brought us to the brink of financial ruin.

I will also point out that these Masters of the Universe didn't arrange this redistribution of wealth on their own. They were aided and abetted by government policies that gutted regulation, rewarded pure greed and threw fiscal responsibility to the wind. Class warfare? There has been class warfare being waged for years now only it's been from the upper class upon the middle and lower classes.

As for the ridiculous idea that an auto worker should receive $200,000 or $300,000 a year, no I am not saying that. I AM saying that the people who work for a corporation and making possible the huge salaries of the upper management should have the right to expect enough of a wage to afford food, housing, clothing, education and medical expenses. The term for this is "a living wage" and I'm frankly in favor of it.

Again, as the middle class goes, so goes the country. A nation of  the very rich and the very poor is not a stable nation and will not long endure.

Cory, I very rarely address personal comments in my posts, preferring to stay with issues and avoid comments suggesting you conservatives and neo-cons are people without love of country, stupid, dishonest or trying to overthrow the American way of life, a convention I would like to see adopted on the other side if possible. However, I will address this to you.

If you are making more than $1,000.000.00 a year, I perfectly understand your point of view. After all, a situation where the rich are given every advantage and the workers are given subsistance wages would then be a good thing for you. If you are not, then you are shooting yourself in the foot by aligning yourself with those who have taken far more from this country than they will ever give back.

What a shame we can't get rid of the unions, the minimum wage...and that pesky emncipation proclomation and make pure capitalism rule again, eh?




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 2:16:58 PM)

I'm all for stealing from the rich to feed the poor. Hell, I am all for everyone to be poor, cold, and kind of hungry all the time. Collectivization Comrades! 



corysub -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 2:24:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

Workers do not create wealth...entreprenours, businessmen, risk takers, inventive people who develop "profitable ideas" create wealth.


It is not true: workers create wealth, inventive people create profitable ideas and manage funding, the production and profits. 
Redistribution of wealth is one of the moost important aspect of capitalism and it is a big problem. There should be a balance how wealth is distributed.  If workers do not have sufficient disposable income buisness activity will slow down. The system does not set the balance automatically but through small and major crises. Easy credit helps only for a short period and this period ran out for US. The government obviously has a role to play here. Bad news is that in the enviornment of greed the goverment officials join the greed rather than trying to suppress it.


                             "Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."
"Capitalism demands the best of every man – his rationality – and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him."
            
                       "Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes."                        
                                   http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm  
                                
                                                                               Ayn Rand
                    



DedicatedDom40 -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 3:16:16 PM)

I did get a chuckle when Palin spoke on this issue.  Every time anyone in the lower 49 pulls up to a gas pump, their wealth is redistributed to Alaska residents, with Palin herself the baglady.  I mean, it was one thing for McCain to raise this issue, but totally out of place for the energy rebate queen to get involved with that topic.... lol

Historically, depressions have followed guilded ages, and we simply are on the down cycle once again. Usually, the rich do lose their shirt in depressions, so there is some natural equalization from the cycle. We are not done with the derivatives problem, not by a longshot. I suspect many more of the top tier will lose their fortunes before its over - Madoff was simply the opening act to warm up the band.  Everybody else wont have much to lose.  They'll be occupied by the surge in home gardening.

As with most people, I like the 'survival of the fittest' mantra of capitalism and I cringe at the thought of mass government distribution of wealth, but historically, the 'survival of the fittest' part was the result of a fair fight to the top.  Thats what the economy of a country and its relative set of regulations should accomplish - create that incubator space where becoming rich was about who built the better product.  Anymore, its all about cheating your way to the top.  When the top 10% pay to elect politicians, and give those politicians marching orders to gut the middle class with offshoring techniques, thats not what I consider a valid contest.  The top is not winning by being smarter or better, but by politically knocking out the competition below the knees.





awmslave -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 3:21:34 PM)

quote:

"Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think."
"Capitalism demands the best of every man – his rationality – and rewards him accordingly.

Sorry, I was partly mistaken. If we think of wealth as ownership, abundance of resources and money we want to say:  who owns it created it? In some regards maybe. From the other hand, it is just the level of greed and how the rules are set. Your approach sounds a bit naive and idealistic to me. Wage earners today definately are not "unthinking brutes". Let us say: wealth creation is a collective effort, distribution is not. The need for fair wealth distribution becomes evident. 



corysub -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 3:34:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub


And you do not think it is class warfare when a President implements a tax policy that gives the majority of tax cuts to the top 10% of taxable incomes in the country?

By the way, can you provide some examples of GM assembly line workers making $200k-$300k a year, as you claim?


I didn't claim that workers were making that kind of money but asked "should be making.... what...$200,000, $300,000 a year"  It was sarcasm. But to listen to the head of the UAW you would think they were underpaid and making such tremendous contributions with give backs..etc.  I listened to enough hearings with the auto companies and from what I heard...I believe the number is somewhere around $70,000 according to work done by the Heritage Foundation, as well as testimony at the congressional hearings.
                          http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2162.cfm


As far as the tax cuts going to the top 10%...how about the top 1%.... In 2006, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.9 percent of all federal individual income taxes! I guess you would want them to pay all the taxes paid to the treasury...hey...so would I....[:)] 
                               http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
                          



hardbodysub -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 4:20:15 PM)

quote:

Ayn Rand


Ayn Rand, lol, what are you going to quote next, Mein Kampf?



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Redistribution of Wealth (2/22/2009 4:41:12 PM)

quote:

Ayn Rand, lol, what are you going to quote next, Mein Kampf?


What exactly does Ayn Rand have to do with Mein Kampf?  [8|]  I love how Lefties always like to equate any opinion that doesn't fit into their worldview as Hitler-esque,



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