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ORIGINAL: corysub

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

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Communism and or socialism does not work.

Of course communism and socialism don't work in the extreme....neither does pure unregulated capitalism. Or perhaps you can point to some actual working capitalist nirvana somewhere in the present or past world.

And, of course, it was the Glass Segal act that forced the poor, innocent banks to create derivatives so complex that no one could understand them, it was the rotten mortgage takers who allowed a market that handled trillions of dollars to go entirely unregulated and it was, of course, the liberals who held a gun to the head of the financial sector to base their own compensation on false sales while risking nothing when these sales turned out to be valuless. It was also the folks who "chose" not to be educated or learn well that burst into the offices of top CEO's wtih pitchforks and torches, demanding that they leverage themselves insanely in order to squeeze every possible fictitious dollar onto their quarterly balance sheets.

I see you're point. I find it ridiculous. But I see it

Until November 4, 2008 I would have said the United States of America.  Warts, business cycles and all the ups and downs caused by the extremes of greed and fear,
the USA was about as close to a capitalist nirvana as any human endeavor.  Recognizing that nothing created by the hand of humans is perfect, what would be your choice?

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ever since John McCain made Joe the Plumber the poster boy for capitalism, conservatives have been screaming the words "redistribution of wealth" with the same horror as if someone had suggested a nice bowl of roasted puppy covered in baby sauce. And at the risk of interrupting the hysteria, I would like to pose a question.

In 1965, the average top executive earned 24 times the wages that the average worker made. By 2009, the average top executive earned. between 271 times and 431 times the wages earned by the average worker (both ends of the spectrum presented in the interest of fairness). Since 1995. the wages of top executives have increased at a rate %500 faster than the wages of the average worker.

This being the case, my question is: What is this other than a massive redistribution of wealth? The share of the economic pie has been redistributed from the average worker (not the unemployed "losers", the average worker) up to the top executive level. During the last decade, the average wage, adjusted for inflation, has actually fallen.

Since the middle class is the single most important component of any society's continuation, why should the idea of a redistribution of wealth away from the small upper tier to the dying middle class be viewed as dangerous socialism while the redistribution away from the middle class up to the upper tier be viewed as the American dream at work?

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Look at China today. Unbridled capitalism. And abuses to the extreme.

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If, after it's all said and done, you didn't end up making substancially more money than I do, WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD YOU DO ALL OF THAT???? Anyone who can say that they would start a business and take all of the risk without a nice reward is either A) an idiot or B) lying.

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ORIGINAL: PilotPTK

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ORIGINAL: Sanity


Yeah - and the people who now find themselves slaves in China were initially promised they were being lead into some kind of a socialist la-la land.

Imagine that...

Hmm... I wonder if there might be a lesson in there somewhere? 

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Look at China today. Unbridled capitalism. And abuses to the extreme.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
On top of that it has been shown on these boards repeatedly that while Republicans like Bush and McCain tried hard to reign in lending institutions such as Fannie and Freddie, Democrats like Frank and Dodd fiercely resisted their efforts.

Obama was intimately involved in creating this mess as well - through his work with ACORN, forcing lending institutions to give loans to those who couldn't afford to pay them.

Many of the seeds of this mess were planted solely by Democrats, and by Obama specifically!

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ORIGINAL: PilotPTK

In favor of wealth re-distribution? cool.

Let's you and I go into business together. You can be the 'owner' of the business, and I'll work for you. It's going to be a land-scaping service.

Now, since you're the owner, you'll need to provide capital to purchase a truck, a trailer, a commercial lawn-mower, a weed-whip, pruning sheers, another trailer, a small bull-dozer, and perhaps an additional 50 thousand dollars for all the 'extras' like rakes and shovels.

Now, we also need for you to provide some money for marketing.. Just 20 or 30 grand should do it.

Ok. Day one, You'll need to start paying me a salary. Now, don't forget, I demand a 'fair' salary of say... 50 thousand per year.. to start. yeah, that should be good.

End of week 1.. We haven't landed a single job yet.. Pay me anyway.
End of week 2.. We haven't landed a single job yet.. Pay me anyway.
End of week 3.. We finally landed a job. It's pretty big! So, we'll need you to come up with capital for about 100 thousand worth of 'materials' to complete the job with.
End of wek 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and 11.. they all end with.. Pay ME.

........................................................................

If, after it's all said and done, you didn't end up making substancially more money than I do, WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD YOU DO ALL OF THAT???? Anyone who can say that they would start a business and take all of the risk without a nice reward is either A) an idiot or B) lying.

Re-Distribution of wealth? You can kiss my FU**ING ass. I own a business. I do very well. I took so much risk that I couldn't sleep at night for years. In the beginning, there were weeks and weeks where I paid my employees and then wondered how I was going to eat dinner. My employees all make a reasonable wage. I make a LOT more than any of them. You think it should be different? follow the plan above, start a business, and then pay yourself what you pay your employees. Me? I'll keep my 'wealth' thank you very much.


EDITED:
Forgot something.. Another problem with increasing taxes on the 'wealthy'... Right now, I employ about 50 people.. That's 50 people who are making a reasonable living and are paying their mortgage and feeding their families and adding some money to the economy. Raise my taxes to a rediculous level? I'll just close the doors. I'm not going to continue working without my reward when I don't have to. I'll go play golf - lots of it. Want to try 'redistributing' my wealth? knowing what you know - that I'll close the doors - why don't you ask the 50 people who make their mortgage payments every month what they want to do..

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
On top of that it has been shown on these boards repeatedly that while Republicans like Bush and McCain tried hard to reign in lending institutions such as Fannie and Freddie, Democrats like Frank and Dodd fiercely resisted their efforts.

Obama was intimately involved in creating this mess as well - through his work with ACORN, forcing lending institutions to give loans to those who couldn't afford to pay them.

Many of the seeds of this mess were planted solely by Democrats, and by Obama specifically!

This is patently incorrect. First, Bush gave speeches on CRA and the benefits of home ownership.
Next, when all 50 states attorney's generals knew what was going on and tried to stop these fraudulent mortgages, Bushes DOJ invoked a 19th century (Office of the comptroller) law to stop them.

There is nothing that the dems came up with and got passed prior to 2006 for sure and I am still looking for what the dems and Obama did by them selves since 2007's new congress under the last 2 years of Bush that created this.

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

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Communism and or socialism does not work.

Of course communism and socialism don't work in the extreme....neither does pure unregulated capitalism.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

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Communism and or socialism does not work.

Of course communism and socialism don't work in the extreme....neither does pure unregulated capitalism.

Pure unregulated capitalism hasn't really been tried.  Government has been interfering with it here from the start.

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Ok, let me if I understand you and the right in general...

When the repubs want to go to war and had the majority to do so, and because some dems went along with it, it becomes a bipartisan folly when things go wrong but when the dems out of the majority and with the same Bush in the white house...the CRA mortgages, Fannie and Freddie get into trouble...it is because of the dems and dems alone ?

Raines and directors et al were all there while the Bush white house and the repub congressional majority did nothing.

The state's atty's general (both parties) tried to get a grip, it wasn't the dems that stopped them.

Never ceases to amaze me on how when the dems have the white house, it was a problem of their making, when the dems have the congress, problems are of their making.

When the repubs have the white house AND the congress all problems are still of the dems making. Simply super politicians those dems.

BTW I NEVER told you to shut up, just stay away from all of the insulting history that is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. Something far too many people do and particularly on the right is to look at and either blame the messenger or try character assassination.

There are 10's of millions of people in this counrty that wished Bush could even get a blowjob from some intern...so we could impeach his ass. That's the ridiculousness of partisan vitriol.

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Pure unregulated capitalism hasn't really been tried.  Government has been interfering with it here from the start.

Once again, I find it interesting that no conservatives have responded to the fact that the closest thing we had to unbridled and uncontrolled capatilism in this country was found in 19th century North America. Come on, guys...tell me how the robber barrons, the private armies of thugs to keep workers in line, the company store system of near enslavement and of course child labor of obscene proportions was a GOOD thing for this country.

(in reply to Raiikun)

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ORIGINAL: corysub

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ORIGINAL: Raiikun

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

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Communism and or socialism does not work.

Of course communism and socialism don't work in the extreme....neither does pure unregulated capitalism.

Pure unregulated capitalism hasn't really been tried.  Government has been interfering with it here from the start.

Absolutely correct...bravo!  We are still suffering the legacy of the "New Deal"..and now we have a new Law..called a "Recovery Act"..or whatever, that is breathing strong whiffs of oxygen into the welfare state that even Bill Clinton was able to work out limits with a republican Congress.  Now that was bi-partisan.  Todays damn democrats are giving "bi" a bad name.. I resent that.. 

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers



Oh BTW cory...I am very interested just what is it part and parcel...that we still 'suffer the legacy of the New Deal, ?'

• Be married for at least one year to someone who receives Social Security retirement or disability benefits;
  
• Be at least 62 years old or caring for a child (under age 16 or disabled) of the retired or disabled worker; and
  
• Not be getting a higher Social Security retirement benefit based on your own work.