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A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 2:27:41 PM

SpinnerofTales

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I am curious. I have seen personal attacks, party attacks, ideological attacks on political issue posts to the point where I could throw my hands up in despair. I would like to propose a little challenge.

Let's take an issue, any issue and discuss it under the following rules.

1) No statements or insinuations that the person or people who disagree are greedy, stupid or anti-americans trying to destroy the country.

2) No referring to the lousy things the other side has done in order to bolster one's own argument. For example, there will be no "Bush lied to get us into the Iraq war", "Well Clinton lied about Monica Lewinski" nonsense. Discuss a situation we are in and how to resolve it in the best way possible NOT who is to blame for it.

3) No posts entirely devoted to saying why an opposing point of view is rubbish without advancing a positive idea in it's place. For example, "Obama's stimulus plan is anti-business and will destroy the country" is a no-no. "Obama's stimulus plan spends in the wrong manner. We Should spend the money on X, Y or Z" is perfectly fine. Even "we shouldn't spend any money because" is fine....again, rather than just ripping down, let us see if we can build up.

I am curious to see if this is possible. If people with differing ideas can actually hold a conversation on an issue without it turning into a pissing contest.

Anyone care to take the challenge and throw out an issue?

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 2:34:31 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I am curious to see if this is possible.

   How about construction of high speed rail?

      Maybe pull the board out of your own eye? You posted this insightful reply not even three hours before launching a thread to whine about partisan distraction and hackery.

      We gots us a word for them kinda shenanigans out this way...

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/22/2009 2:47:43 PM >

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 2:37:09 PM

Vendaval

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Welcome to the CM Off-Topic (Political Rhetoric and Punchline Zone) Forum. If you survive enough debate here you get a patch that states, "I survived the great 2---- War".

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 2:45:27 PM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I am curious to see if this is possible.

How about construction of high speed rail?

Maybe pull the board out of your own eye?

I think the construction of high speed rail would be a fantastic project for the country. It could be built right on top of the existing Amtrak roadbed so that survey and clearances should be able to be accomplished quite easily. Europe moves on their rail system and, for selfish reasons, I would start in the Northeast..and connect Boston to Washington first...than put in links to Chicago, Atalanta and Miami. At the same time a MHD rail line could be started on the West Coast linking Seattle with Los Angeles...than a spur out through Arizona Texas and Louisana.
Eventually all the lines..east and west coast could meet as they did when the first transcontinental rail line was completed. You would be able travel from the center of each city to the center of your destination city...not have to drive miles to the airport, and miles back to the city when you arrive..etc

edited: Didn't see the thread on high speed rail.

< Message edited by corysub -- 2/22/2009 2:51:10 PM >

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 3:03:22 PM

SpinnerofTales

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[quote)
I think the construction of high speed rail would be a fantastic project for the country. It could be built right on top of the existing Amtrak roadbed so that survey and clearances should be able to be accomplished quite easily. Europe moves on their rail system and, for selfish reasons, I would start in the Northeast..and connect Boston to Washington first...than put in links to Chicago, Atalanta and Miami. At the same time a MHD rail line could be started on the West Coast linking Seattle with Los Angeles...than a spur out through Arizona Texas and Louisana.
Eventually all the lines..east and west coast could meet as they did when the first transcontinental rail line was completed. You would be able travel from the center of each city to the center of your destination city...not have to drive miles to the airport, and miles back to the city when you arrive..etc
[/quote]

I have to agree on this issue. I think high speed train transit is a good idea on a number of levels. I think, however, that the LA to Las Vegas line is a good idea for the following reasons:

1) This is new technology. It is going to take a while to work out the bugs and get it working the way it should. By choosing a stretch that is not already serviced by train transit, we allow that shakedown to be done in a manner that does not interfere with existent transit applications.

2) As noted in another post, the terrain and climate of the proposed rout present advantages. The terrain is mostly flat with no mountains or such to navigate. The land is mostly desert so that it will not interfere overmuch with local ecosystems and the weather is such that it can be worked on without overmuch worry about meteorological distractions.

3) The location of the first rail rout will not effect the economic benefits of the project. Although the workers will mostly be from the LA/LV area, the components, steel and other material can be contracted out to anywhere in the country and the money spent will aid in the general economic environment.

Do you feel the actual location of the first line laid is an important component in the project to build such a high speed rail line?

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 3:07:03 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I think the construction of high speed rail would be a fantastic project for the country. It could be built right on top of the existing Amtrak roadbed so that survey and clearances should be able to be accomplished quite easily. Europe moves on their rail system and, for selfish reasons, I would start in the Northeast..and connect Boston to Washington first...than put in links to Chicago, Atalanta and Miami. At the same time a MHD rail line could be started on the West Coast linking Seattle with Los Angeles...than a spur out through Arizona Texas and Louisana.
Eventually all the lines..east and west coast could meet as they did when the first transcontinental rail line was completed. You would be able travel from the center of each city to the center of your destination city...not have to drive miles to the airport, and miles back to the city when you arrive..etc

edited: Didn't see the thread on high speed rail.

High speed rail cannot be built on existing roadbed. High speed rail roadbeds must have as little grade and as straight a path as possible. When turns are unavoidable they are long gradual banked turns so as to lose as little speed as possible. Existing roadbed is also in pretty heavy use in most places and isn't built for the sorts of stresses a 180 mph train would cause.

Last time I saw anything on using existing roadbeds a high speed train between Chicago and St. Louis, one of the better choices for a demonstration project, would be limited to an average speed of about 60 mph, peak was 90 IIRC, and would seriously disrupt existing commercial uses of that roadbed.

Of course building new track requires aquiring, probably by condemnation, these long straight paths and then building as near zero grade roadbeds as possible which turns out to be enormously expensive.

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 3:42:06 PM

corysub

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"Do you feel the actual location of the first line laid is an important component in the project to build such a high speed rail line? " SpinnerofTales

I think so. The country just doesn't have the money to throw $6 billion, a government estimate that is probably way too low as most are..into a project when it could get started real quick on existing rights of way. Done in sections say..NY to D.C.....would, I think, be a money maker picking up people as Amtrak does in Philly, Wilmington and Baltimore. That line, with the traffic density potential it holds, would provide real numbers as to the viability of such a project, how it might be improved, and more intelligent cost estimates for further development. Whatever that line would cost...it would be cheaper when it's done in other areas...but at least we would have some idea on maximum costs...form buying steel to union negotiations and the power fight that I'm sure will occur in that regard up and down the line

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 3:52:38 PM

SpinnerofTales

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Ok...this is going good...let's ramp it up a bit....we're mostly so far all in favor of high speed rail transport...let's take this something with a bit of controversy but the same basic rules of debate.

Fact: The economy is in a deep, dangerous hole
Question: What should be done about it or improve the solutions the government has so far proposed doing about it?

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 3:55:18 PM

CatdeMedici

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So you want us to be better than Congress?

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 4:02:35 PM

corysub

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I'm not an engineer and don't really understand what the requirements would be for a MHD rail. My only experience on something even approaching such a mode of transportation would be Disneyworld...and that transportation system which really was revolutionary in its day. I just see towers holding the tracks like they have at the magic kingdom and the rails below for local traffic and freight. That's why those MIT and Georgia Tech guys with the sharp pencils and calculators make the money they do..

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 4:05:21 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

So you want us to be better than Congress?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

So you want us to be better than Congress?

What I want is ideas, presented in a reasonable fashion without attacks or strident posturing. And before I am roundly and justly attacked, I do not hold myself completely innocent of that. This is merely an experiment to see what happens if we discuss things in terms of solution rather than blame, in terms of ideas and not ideologies, in terms of people and not personalities.

So far it seems to actually be working for the most part.

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 4:14:59 PM

DomKen

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Cory,

It appears you're mixing two proposals. High speed rail as it is generally discussed uses traditional rail technology adapted for very high speeds. MHD, I think you mean maglev monorail (otherwise I have no idea), is an expensive and power intensive system for long range travel. Better to have a traditional locomotive drawing power from either combustion or overhead wire and without needing to rely on electromagnets for lift.

Maglev, monorails and other light rail systems are much better used in short range mass transit situations where trains of only a couple of cars makes having a dedicated locomotive undesirable for a host of reasons.

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 7:37:37 PM

DesFIP

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You are asking for people to act as if they are mature, intelligent adults. Never gonna happen.

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RE: A Challenge for Better Ideas - 2/22/2009 7:52:41 PM

rexrgisformidoni

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I have an idea. Worry about the small shit, the things you can change. It all starts there.

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