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Mercnbeth -> The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 10:41:50 AM)

A damn good question was asked; "Why are people against raising taxes?". The implication is that anyone against raising taxes is "rich" and doesn't want to participate in solving the economic problems facing the US. That would be the exception. In another thread Warren Buffet was quoted as saying something to the effect that this is a battle between 'us' and 'them' and 'us are winning. Think what you like, but Warren Buffet's 'us' doesn't have me, or anyone I know as a member.

The 'us' I identify with are business people, 'successful' if the definition means we own all or a major chuck of something and operate a business. I'll answer why we're against taxes - taxes make us unproductive. Taxes make us keep assets and resources out of circulation. Taxes stop us from expanding.

How does that affect someone who doesn't own anything, works for a salary, and sees us as uncaring, unsympathetic, cold 'capitalists'. To know that you have to know some details. I provide my personal situation and company as a case study.

I just closed out 2008. Much to my chagrin, my company grossed about $335k. Shows what a poor manager I am, I try to break even. Why? Well, CA already had the highest corporate tax rate in the country and I'd rather pay tax at a lower personal rate, or give it out in bonuses to my people, but even after doing that, the cost of my product (money) was so low in the last quarter, I couldn't spend enough to keep pace. 

Take a look whats in that number. I paid out $700k in salary,  and another $800k in operating expenses. No complaints in doing so. I pay 100% of my employee's health coverage, provide a 401k with company participating dollar for dollar, and routinely give out bonuses every quarter when we hit 'plan'.

I base my involvement in business based upon a 'Return on Investment'. Many know, and appreciate that's pointed first to an ROI on capital investment. However for me and, many if not all, of the people I associate with in similar situations. That ROI is more about the investment in time as it is capital.

There is some number I have in my mind where I'm not willing to invest my time to pay a bigger percentage of my gross income into taxes going into a pit of government bureaucracy. Who knows, tonight President Obama can hit that number in announcing his raising taxes plan. Then what happens...?

Well, I come in one day and say to my employees - "sorry - we're closing". It will take about 6 months to a year to liquidate out the company. My employees, ranging from my operations manager making six figures, to my 2 temporary college kids making $12/hour will be out of a jobs. Good luck replacing them in CA today. As a result their mortgages and rents won't be paid, they'll buy less groceries, they'll  curtail any vacation plans.

My vendors, will see a small percentage of that $800k I paid out to them 2008. They may have to lay off employees, cut back on orders to their suppliers, and a similar 'trickle down' of failure will occur.

Me - well I won't be paying any of that higher tax rate. I'll not be making any 'income' of note, and especially will be sure not to hit the 'rich' threshold of $250k. I'll live off assets. I won't invest anything, except perhaps on more 'short sell' options in the stock market.

Here's the problem; take my situation and multiple it by 10 and you get my 'short sell' investment group. Take an multiply it by a million and you have the mindset of many in business. I've had the ability, desire, and ambition to hire on another outside marketing employee for nearly 6 months. I haven't done so for one reason - I can't answer the question why I should. Why generate more money, to pay more tax to support this path of government policy? Ah, NO! So there is one less potentially six figure income not generating tax, not generating spending, not spending at conventions, not buying plane tickets, not taking business meals at restaurants, spending at gas stations, upgrading a wardrobe at clothing stores, and buying from office supply stores. Again - multiply it by many similar situations throughout the company and you have a reason why higher taxes produce less tax income.

AIG, BoA, GM, and the rest of the failures get the press and the bail-out. Asking people like me, representing a much greater segment of the US economy when considered as a whole, to fund their failure and you get a lot of pissed off 'capitalists' who are, based upon my conversations, ready to 'cash out' and sit back for the rest of their lives.

Once again, I don't think I'm a genius to figure this out. I pretty confident that it was part of an overall plan. We're dinosaurs, entrepreneurs with and without college degrees who just had a work ethic, self accountability, the ability, and some 'luck'  to be 'successful'. More of us aren't being produced by this society nor this educational system. The majority are being indoctrinated to want a government which prevents them from hurting themselves. They want a government to pursue a course that results in total and daily government involvement; protecting them and providing 'cradle to grave' coverage. So it becomes 'liberal' to make laws to eliminate playground equipment to protect the children from skinning their knees on 'dangerous' monkey bars. We hear screams from the people to protect them from their decisions and inhibit foreclosure on a house they couldn't afford in the first place. We have a President who says its fine and appropriate to conduct civil disobedience. It's obvious to me, the government wants more of these people and less of me.

What they want is votes. November provided the perfect storm of disgust in the policies and programs of the prior Administration, the strength of public employee unions, and the big voting block of failures, corporate and individual, who hoped to benefit from a candidates stated platform of rewarding them for their results. Well, that candidate is now President and he came in with large enough coattails to insure fulfilling his promises. To see the joy in Nancy Pelosi's face yesterday in announcing yet another $410 Billion of proposed 'pork' spending was a sight to behold. Of course she does represent and is a member of the 'us' referred to by Buffet; so she has cause to smile.

The goal - produce more votes. Were I to close my business, who would my employees vote for, a person championing fiscal responsibly and implementing pragmatic spending cuts and audits to eliminate duplicity; or one who says to them, it wasn't your fault, here's a hand-out?

Government reliance, bludgeoning bureaucracy, increased entitlements produce votes. That's the goal here - not turning the economy around. In 20-30 years all us dinosaurs will be gone - I've got no complaints and will comfortably enjoy the balance of life. I'm looking forward to it as much many of you are to having the government 'save' you. 

Good luck with that.

CIAO!




Owner59 -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 10:44:45 AM)

Shouldn`t we pay our bills,if we spent the money?





Mercnbeth -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Shouldn`t we pay our bills,if we spent the money?
Appreciating that you didn't challenge anything else. Sure - but their is no chance of that happing based on the actions of this Administration. There will be more businesses closing and less taxes coming in; along with more entitlements going out.

A better 'why' that I would expect you to ask, is why pay for someone else's bill? Appreciating that you think it my responsibility to pay for someone else's unpaid mortgage; why should my taxes, or yours, be used to pay the bills for BoA or AIG?

Waiting for the day when you ever answer a question - I'll ask you a couple. How can it be considered economically responsible to spend more money while operating at a loss? What is the expectation of success by encumbering businesses and individuals with more tax liability in the face of current conditions? How will that facilitate the production of jobs? Granted it will produce more bureaucrats and 'work' for processing more paperwork, but that's draining resources and not contributing to solving the problem.




corysub -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:14:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A damn good question was asked; "Why are people against raising taxes?". The implication is that anyone against raising taxes is "rich" and doesn't want to participate in solving the economic problems facing the US. That would be the exception. In another thread Warren Buffet was quoted as saying something to the effect that this is a battle between 'us' and 'them' and 'us are winning. Think what you like, but Warren Buffet's 'us' doesn't have me, or anyone I know as a member.

The 'us' I identify with are business people, 'successful' if the definition means we own all or a major chuck of something and operate a business. I'll answer why we're against taxes - taxes make us unproductive. Taxes make us keep assets and resources out of circulation. Taxes stop us from expanding.

How does that affect someone who doesn't own anything, works for a salary, and sees us as uncaring, unsympathetic, cold 'capitalists'. To know that you have to know some details. I provide my personal situation and company as a case study.

I just closed out 2008. Much to my chagrin, my company grossed about $335k. Shows what a poor manager I am, I try to break even. Why? Well, CA already had the highest corporate tax rate in the country and I'd rather pay tax at a lower personal rate, or give it out in bonuses to my people, but even after doing that, the cost of my product (money) was so low in the last quarter, I couldn't spend enough to keep pace. 

Take a look whats in that number. I paid out $700k in salary,  and another $800k in operating expenses. No complaints in doing so. I pay 100% of my employee's health coverage, provide a 401k with company participating dollar for dollar, and routinely give out bonuses every quarter when we hit 'plan'.

I base my involvement in business based upon a 'Return on Investment'. Many know, and appreciate that's pointed first to an ROI on capital investment. However for me and, many if not all, of the people I associate with in similar situations. That ROI is more about the investment in time as it is capital.

There is some number I have in my mind where I'm not willing to invest my time to pay a bigger percentage of my gross income into taxes going into a pit of government bureaucracy. Who knows, tonight President Obama can hit that number in announcing his raising taxes plan. Then what happens...?

Well, I come in one day and say to my employees - "sorry - we're closing". It will take about 6 months to a year to liquidate out the company. My employees, ranging from my operations manager making six figures, to my 2 temporary college kids making $12/hour will be out of a jobs. Good luck replacing them in CA today. As a result their mortgages and rents won't be paid, they'll buy less groceries, they'll  curtail any vacation plans.

My vendors, will see a small percentage of that $800k I paid out to them 2008. They may have to lay off employees, cut back on orders to their suppliers, and a similar 'trickle down' of failure will occur.

Me - well I won't be paying any of that higher tax rate. I'll not be making any 'income' of note, and especially will be sure not to hit the 'rich' threshold of $250k. I'll live off assets. I won't invest anything, except perhaps on more 'short sell' options in the stock market.

Here's the problem; take my situation and multiple it by 10 and you get my 'short sell' investment group. Take an multiply it by a million and you have the mindset of many in business. I've had the ability, desire, and ambition to hire on another outside marketing employee for nearly 6 months. I haven't done so for one reason - I can't answer the question why I should. Why generate more money, to pay more tax to support this path of government policy? Ah, NO! So there is one less potentially six figure income not generating tax, not generating spending, not spending at conventions, not buying plane tickets, not taking business meals at restaurants, spending at gas stations, upgrading a wardrobe at clothing stores, and buying from office supply stores. Again - multiply it by many similar situations throughout the company and you have a reason why higher taxes produce less tax income.

AIG, BoA, GM, and the rest of the failures get the press and the bail-out. Asking people like me, representing a much greater segment of the US economy when considered as a whole, to fund their failure and you get a lot of pissed off 'capitalists' who are, based upon my conversations, ready to 'cash out' and sit back for the rest of their lives.

Once again, I don't think I'm a genius to figure this out. I pretty confident that it was part of an overall plan. We're dinosaurs, entrepreneurs with and without college degrees who just had a work ethic, self accountability, the ability, and some 'luck'  to be 'successful'. More of us aren't being produced by this society nor this educational system. The majority are being indoctrinated to want a government which prevents them from hurting themselves. They want a government to pursue a course that results in total and daily government involvement; protecting them and providing 'cradle to grave' coverage. So it becomes 'liberal' to make laws to eliminate playground equipment to protect the children from skinning their knees on 'dangerous' monkey bars. We hear screams from the people to protect them from their decisions and inhibit foreclosure on a house they couldn't afford in the first place. We have a President who says its fine and appropriate to conduct civil disobedience. It's obvious to me, the government wants more of these people and less of me.

What they want is votes. November provided the perfect storm of disgust in the policies and programs of the prior Administration, the strength of public employee unions, and the big voting block of failures, corporate and individual, who hoped to benefit from a candidates stated platform of rewarding them for their results. Well, that candidate is now President and he came in with large enough coattails to insure fulfilling his promises. To see the joy in Nancy Pelosi's face yesterday in announcing yet another $410 Billion of proposed 'pork' spending was a sight to behold. Of course she does represent and is a member of the 'us' referred to by Buffet; so she has cause to smile.

The goal - produce more votes. Were I to close my business, who would my employees vote for, a person championing fiscal responsibly and implementing pragmatic spending cuts and audits to eliminate duplicity; or one who says to them, it wasn't your fault, here's a hand-out?

Government reliance, bludgeoning bureaucracy, increased entitlements produce votes. That's the goal here - not turning the economy around. In 20-30 years all us dinosaurs will be gone - I've got no complaints and will comfortably enjoy the balance of life. I'm looking forward to it as much many of you are to having the government 'save' you. 

Good luck with that.

CIAO!


         Right on!    [sm=applause.gif]




Owner59 -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:15:51 AM)

Besides the meaningless boilerplate rhetoric,there`s not much there.

What got us into this mess were folks who wanted to spend like there was no tomorrow with no intention of paying the bills.

Taxes pay the bills.Pretending like the two are separate and apart is as dis-honest as writing a check you know you can`t cover.

Well,Merc,it`s tomorrow and your un-sustainable neo-conservative policy non-sense is over,done.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:17:17 AM)

Great post Merc. It seems your business segment is my client base. Many do not realize that ssmall business combined, produces more jobs than the large companies that are getting all the government bonuses, I mean bailouts, I mean assistance, I mean stimulus, I mean whatever the word is for what is going on.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:20:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Besides the meaningless boilerplate rhetoric,there`s not much there.

What got us into this mess were folks who wanted to spend like there was no tomorrow with no intention of paying the bills.


Agreed that the government spent too much in the past. Agreed that they used deficit spending to get there. So the solution is to spend even more money, increase taxes and remove evn more revenue from small business, and to continue deficit spending? So basically you are saying the problem then is the solution now?

quote:


Taxes pay the bills.Pretending like the two are separate and apart is as dis-honest as writing a check you know you can`t cover.

Well,Merc,it`s tomorrow and your un-sustainable neo-conservative policy non-sense is over,done.


Pay what bills? AIG's bills? The Big 3's bills?

So can you explain how raising taxes will increase jobs in the small business area?




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 11:36:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Besides the meaningless boilerplate rhetoric,there`s not much there.
What got us into this mess were folks who wanted to spend like there was no tomorrow with no intention of paying the bills.
Taxes pay the bills.Pretending like the two are separate and apart is as dis-honest as writing a check you know you can`t cover.
Well,Merc,it`s tomorrow and your un-sustainable neo-conservative policy non-sense is over,done.

59,
Obviously not much there that you can respond to, I knew that going in and felt safe in my prediction you wouldn't respond to any question.

You and the President have much in common. Big on rhetoric, no details, no contrary argument or position which requires a response of labeling and name calling. Basically - NO answer, NO plan; nothing of value to offer.

"Meaningless boilerplate rhetoric? Really? From what 'boiler'? Granted not from the party in power who writes your 'bible' and based upon your posts your only reference source; but not from any other party that I can find. If you have found it in on a boiler for any political group, please pass on the referral.

The problem with me, and those like me being "done"; we're not worse off , in fact we are MUCH better. You are in worse shape short and long term; you, your party, and the bureaucracy that you want. What were "done" doing is paying for you and your entitlement desires. If you had any pragmatic reasoning skills the situation should make you as sad as it makes me happy. You should be very concerned that we are "done" and have some kind of plan for replacing 'us'. However, like answering questions, I doubt you have that ability.




housesub4you -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 12:09:22 PM)

"Big on rhetoric, no details, no contrary argument or position which requires a response of labeling and name calling. Basically - NO answer, NO plan; nothing of value to offer."


That sounds more like the last 8 years then the last month.   





rednicky -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 12:22:00 PM)

*Warning: child in me is coming out*

Yay! That's 'my' question! [:D]




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 12:26:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you
"Big on rhetoric, no details, no contrary argument or position which requires a response of labeling and name calling. Basically - NO answer, NO plan; nothing of value to offer."
That sounds more like the last 8 years then the last month. 
Exactly hs, however weren't you, and many from the plurality side of November; voting, and hoping, for a "CHANGE!"? Was implementing part II of President Bush's economic plan your ideal for the incoming Administration?
quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky
*Warning: child in me is coming out*
Yay! That's 'my' question! [:D] 
Yes it was, it was a damn good one and, unfortunately for the political agenda motivated, isn't party specific. Good for you! More 'children' should be involved and ask these questions to the people setting policy.

Did the answer you got provide a bit of insight?




rednicky -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 12:29:38 PM)

Well honestly, I'm still reading. A lot of jargon in there that I can't begin to understand without looking up a few things. But I see more complaining (not in your post) about what's not being done and how the federal government is falling short rather than answers to my original question: Do you have a better idea?




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 12:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky
Do you have a better idea?
Posted many times....

I'll summarize the highlights again: 
  • Full Audit of the Business entity known as the USA
  • Bureaucratic cuts
  • Status quo in taxes
  • End foreign aid (including occupation in support of 'special interest' industries)
  • Cut all welfare and subsidiaries to Corporations
  • Implement reciprocal tariff program
  • Punish any individual or corporation hiring illegal workers severely
  • Let the failures, individual and corporate, fail.
  • Suspend any and all environmental barriers impeding the construction of a National mass transit system.




MistressEve -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 1:04:58 PM)

Paying more taxes is like giving the government a free handout!  The government raises taxes to pay for their pork infested stimulus plan.  Ask yourself why is there pork in the first place?  Who approved its placement?  How did they benefit?  I'm 100% against it.  This is a poor way to stimulate growth...to get into additional debt.  Apply this theory to your own personal finances.  Is it ever a good idea to borrow more money if you can't afford to pay your current debt?  Further, once you obtain that money, to pay old debt and stimulate growth, is it ever wise to spend it on luxury items?  The pork in this package is estimated to be well over 30%.  When will America wake up and begin to trim the fat?  It is only a matter of time when a big spending economy spends more than they can weather.  We should have a savings NOT a debt. 

I think its time we generate new ideas to boost the economy.  Stop all unnecessary government spending...get to the core bone structure and only add those things that are a must.  It will take sacrifice and creative ideas to make a change.  How about allowing people to take a one time amount out of their 401k without being taxed on it?  How about placing controls on how much credit cards, mortgage lenders and banks can charge in interest?  How about saying no to over seas rebuilding projects, tax credits, imports?  Frankly I'm pissed that my tax dollars are being used to pay union automobile workers salaries.  I wish I could stand in an assembly line all day and make $30.00 an hour without having a college education.  In this economy, that job should be paying 15.00 an hour.  It would be so nice if I could run my business into the red and have tax dollars handed to me, to aid in the continuation of my high standard of living. 

Sadly our legislators lack accountability and integrity.  Government has gotten too big.  The personal check and balance system has failed.  Regulation and oversight of such an expansive government has proven to be an enormous task in more ways than one.  Hell America still has yet to see a valid copy of President Obama’s birth certificate.  Didn’t he promise to make the government more transparent?  I want to see the stimulas plan myself.  If I'm paying for the plan, I want to see where my money is being spent.  Society no longer can blindly support such a magnitude of spending. 




MistressEve -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 1:36:16 PM)

Merc, well said!!! I agree 100% and could not have sumed it up better!  
Further, anyone who is caught adding pork or luxury spending should immediately lose their position, have all their assets seized and be jailed.  After all, isn’t that what happens to drug dealers for pushing drugs for a living.  What’s the difference, government is simply pushing the drug of their pork onto us.  Worse…I’m not even getting high off of it!!! 

In addition, Why are we investing in additional community transportation, that will need maintenance, when the roads outside my door are not fit to drive on!!! 




Mercnbeth -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 4:41:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressEve
Merc, well said!!! I agree 100% and could not have summed it up better!  
Thanks Mistress Eve,
Forgot another major change that would have a positive impact on the budget; total separation of Church & State. Meaning - Churches pay taxes like everyone else. Same goes for any special interest group disguised as a 'charity'.  

A consumption tax would take care of that, putting a tax on everything, everyone purchases; but I'm sure that wouldn't be passed by Congress. Too many of our legislators are attorneys and would not replace the IRS which serves to sent a lot of business to their industry. 




housesub4you -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 4:50:07 PM)

Yea, I was.  I don't see it the same way you choose to. 
To each there own, I can look back and see what is in place now and how totally fucked this country is; while using the Flag to stand behind.

At least Obama, is standing up and is taking the questions and admitting if the plan does not work, he won't be President in 4 years.   

The last 2 votes should open up the eyes of the GOP, that the people of this country are tired of the games & politics, yet all the GOP does is offer the same thing,  Tax relief to the top 1%, cause it has worked so well over the last 8 years




NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 4:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Shouldn`t we pay our bills,if we spent the money?




Why are you talking about WE spent the money, who is this we? All that government debt was created from programs I didn't support. You should say how will you pay it back.

I'm against this huge military structure. I'm not part of that WE. Shouldn't Obama be working to reduce this by now, then I may consider joining your WE.
I'm against bailout out big corps, so the current power structure can stay intact. I'm no part of that WE. (To late he already gave away all kinds of money, and pretty much privatized the losses, and the worst thing he could do would be to officially nationalize the banks. The consequences of such an action would be disasterous, IMO. Well, beyond letting some just go broke.)
I'm against giving preferential treatment to any group, by siphoning tax dollars to them. I'm not part of that WE.

What WE, there is no WE in this country, as I will not benefit one penny from all of this. Yet there is a WE, somewhere down the road when time to pay it back. LOL. Fuck that shit.

Anyway, I have the same plan, I trully will leave this country at the first point it becomes feasible. No way, will I be here in three years, or less. I'd leave tonight if it were possible. WE. LOL. how convenient, WE, to funny, you are funny, amongst other things.

This country was not founded on the WE principle it was founded on the I principle. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, they have been subjugating groups for decades, doesn't change the ideal premise and goal. However, it seems with the economic scare people have found new comfort in being part of the ignorant we brigade, and find the bludgeoning power that comes with it irresitable.

Bludgeon each other silly.

I won't help, and Yes I can make sure that happens.  If I can't get out before the full out nanny state sets in I'll simply leech it. That is what every fucking body else seems to be for.

Can't afford your mortgage don't worry, we'll help.
Poor big corp, can't afford your bills, don't worry we'll, help.
Poor worker, can't find a job, don't worry we'll help.

LOL. All the while in all of this the number one thing the country needs has been largely ignored and that is growing small businesses, that actually create jobs that don't get outsourced. Brilliant!!!, oh, oh, but instead of that they are going to build roads. Roads are great and all, but they come after encouraging job growth not the other way around. The unemployed don't drive much, do they. And they tend to buy the cheapest shit they can to get by, aka, chinese shit. Beautiful plan they've got.

Let's see.
Help retards pay mortgage, give trillions to banks, give unemployed more money, expand government, don't encourage real job growth. That's the plan. Obama is a fucking genius!!!! I guess we can all work at the government cheese factory, there will be record demand.




MmeGigs -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 6:56:16 PM)

I was with you, more or less, until you started in with the nasty characterizations of what's motivating the "other side" on this issue.  It's no different than the folks who say that the Republicans just beat the no-tax drum to get votes.  Seems to me that both parties do a lot of pandering when it comes to taxes.  I don't see that either party has a practical, sustainable plan for dealing with taxes and government spending. 

A lot of individuals I know aren't very rational about this stuff, either.  They bitch about paying taxes and at the same time demand more government services.  Many of the same folks who demand tax cuts also want to be able to pay their property taxes and parking tickets and renew their driver's license online.  It costs a lot of money to set that up and maintain it.  They bitch about higher fees for marriage licenses, access to public swimming pools and golf courses, having to pay to use govt facilities they used to be able to use for free.  They holler if there's a blizzard or ice storm and the plows and sanders don't have the roads all clear by the time they should be leaving for work.  They don't see that these things are all related to the tax cuts they demanded.

Taxes are a fact of life.  There are things that we expect government to do, those things cost money, and we've all got to chip in to pay for them.  Even if pared down to the bare minimum, this would be the case.  What we really need is to have some rational discussion about taxes and govt spending that includes all of the players about what we should be paying for and who should pay. 

Here's what I'd like to see.

Taxes on businesses should be reduced or eliminated.  They're all ultimately passed along to an individual one way or another, and I don't see any value in increasing the number of pockets my tax dollar has to travel through to make it to its ultimate destination.  I'd like to see all/most taxes paid through individual income tax, preferably a flat tax.  Income from investments and capital gains would be taxed at the same rate as earned income.  In your case, your business wouldn't pay taxes on profits, you would pay taxes on the money you take from your business as personal income.  

I'd like to see businesses absolved of responsibility for health care and retirement.  It's wonderful that you provide these to your employees, and I'm sure glad that my employer provides these for me, but it does put many US businesses at a competitive disadvantage internationally, and like it or not, we have a global economy and that's not going to change.  A lot of employers don't offer these benefits and don't pay their employees enough that they can afford to buy them on their own.  I don't think that individual business owners can be faulted for this.  If my competitors are all paying low wages and offering no benefits, I can't pay living wage and offer health insurance and retirement.  I won't be able to compete.  I'm sure that there are a lot of small business owners who feel pretty crappy about this. 

In exchange for paying little or no taxes and being absolved of reponsibility for health insurance and retirement, businesses would be required to pay a living wage.  Folks like to characterize those who receive public assistance as lazy leeches, but most of them are working folks who are making crap wages and get no benefits.  I think that anyone working full-time hours ought to be paid enough that they don't need to go to the government for help to pay for food, shelter and transportation.  I have yet to see anyone come up with a good reason that our tax dollars should be used to subsidize the wages of folks who are working for companies that are reporting healthy profits and paying dividends to shareholders.  Talk about your redistributions of wealth...

A number of conservative posters here have pointed out that 40% of us don't pay taxes and that a good number of those folks are actually taking money out of the system.  I agree that it's a shocking figure, but I don't understand how those 40% of folks who aren't making enough money to pay taxes can be blamed for this situation.  I'm sure they'd love to be among the 60% of taxpayers, but the fact is that about a third of the jobs out there don't pay that much.  An individual who is a net drain on the tax dollar can vastly improve their situation through education and ambition, but most of the jobs in our economy don't require a college degree.  If all of us had degrees and drive, we'd still have a third of us working at jobs that don't pay us enough to take care of basic expenses because we need people to run the cash registers, empty the garbage cans, clean the hotel rooms, flip the hamburgers and all of the other things that we currently pay folks shit wages to do. 

We either have to pay this basic cost of living for the bottom third of working folk through wages or through tax-funded wage subsidies.  "Let them eat cake" is not an option.  I'd rather pay higher prices and see working folks get their compensation in their paychecks than pay higher taxes and have working folks go through the humiliating process of applying for government benefits to make ends meet.   I guess that we can blame them for their situation and refuse to spend our tax dollars to help them out, but I don't think that allowing a third of our population to fall through the cracks economically is an option.  




Vendaval -> RE: The Economy of Votes (2/24/2009 10:27:26 PM)

You just outlined most city council and county board of supervisors meetings, never mind state budget deficits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
A lot of individuals I know aren't very rational about this stuff, either.  They bitch about paying taxes and at the same time demand more government services.  Many of the same folks who demand tax cuts also want to be able to pay their property taxes and parking tickets and renew their driver's license online.  It costs a lot of money to set that up and maintain it.  They bitch about higher fees for marriage licenses, access to public swimming pools and golf courses, having to pay to use govt facilities they used to be able to use for free.  They holler if there's a blizzard or ice storm and the plows and sanders don't have the roads all clear by the time they should be leaving for work.  They don't see that these things are all related to the tax cuts they demanded.
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