Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

What is "Constitutional"


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> What is "Constitutional" Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 7:55:18 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
There has been a lot of talk in another posting (see..."Remember When Obama Said He Wouldn't Come After People's Guns) about what is and is not constitutionally protected right. It also speaks about the intent of the framers of the constitution in crafting certain amendments.

The fact is, however, the constitution itself answers that question. It set up the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution. By definition, what the Supreme Court decides is constitutional IS constitutional.

Therefore, if the supreme court decides, for example, that pornography is not protected speech under the first amendment, then it is not constitutionally protected. If they decide that the second amendment's language about a well regulated militia indicates that regulation is allowable to restrict people's right to keep and bear arms, then that is the constitutional law of the land.

I don't say that this a good thing or a bad thing, as I am still chewing that one over. But if you're going to go by the constitution, you have to go by all the constitution. Just as if you go by the bible, it would be wrong to say "I like the stuff about no killing...but don't at all think that no adultery stuff has any validity".

Just a little bit of fact to chew upon when things get quiet.


< Message edited by SpinnerofTales -- 2/27/2009 7:56:26 PM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 8:18:36 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
Hi Spinner,
 
There are a few people on here that are knowledgable about Constitutional Law and will be able to debate with you at length.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 8:22:34 PM   
YoursMistress


Posts: 894
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

I don't say that this a good thing or a bad thing, as I am still chewing that one over. But if you're going to go by the constitution, you have to go by all the constitution. Just as if you go by the bible, it would be wrong to say "I like the stuff about no killing...but don't at all think that no adultery stuff has any validity".

Just a little bit of fact to chew upon when things get quiet.



You imply that there is no ambiguity in the written word of the Constitution and in the precedents of interpretations to date.  The Constitution itself contains language both prohibiting and allowing alcohol, so one must first recognize that the Constitution is constantly changing, and that even at a moment in time there is no pure objective truth.  One's ability to weave the actual written words and citations of precedent in Supreme Court rulings into a compelling argument still allows for the subjectivity of an audience and an alternate proposal for resolution by one's opponent.  Pinning someone down to the Constitution as you describe only requires the construct of a more compelling argument. 

Your post didn't seem exceptionally heavy in "facts", other than the fact that the interpretation of the Constitution is the realm of the Supreme Court. 

yours


_____________________________

May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 8:30:46 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
It may also be interesting to note that some parts of the Constitution are somewhat ambiguous by design. Just like today's politicians, the framers couldn't agree on everything. In some cases, they were more or less deadlocked, and the only language they could agree on was language that wasn't really clear.

It's a case of "Well, we gotta get this done, so some of this we'll have to leave for our successors to figure out".

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 2/27/2009 8:32:00 PM >

(in reply to YoursMistress)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 8:49:58 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
exactly.
Also the Court has ruled on the same topics numerous times, and in some cases issued opinions contrary to the opinion before. The Constitution is a living document, it can be amended, argued over, interpreted. Anyhow, if it really interests you take a constitutional law class or 3.


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:06:45 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
So you think under any circumstances the Supreme Court... appointed through the political process... approved by Congress... will directly rule against an article of the Constitution? There is a difference between laws to regulate arms and flat out deny them. It’s something that just will not happen… with any article.

And you must remember the office of the presidency and the Congress... directly balance the powers of the Supreme Court. They may interrupt law but cannot create it.

Butch

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:07:10 PM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline
Which is what made it such a priority for Bushit & Co. to pack the supreme court with arch conservatives, and for Ashcroft and Gonzoles to politisize the appointments for regional judges... they were wanting to rig the system so that everything was "fair and balanced"...

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:10:54 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

The Constitution itself contains language both prohibiting and allowing alcohol, so one must first recognize that the Constitution is constantly changing, and that even at a moment in time there is no pure objective truth.
quote:

ORIGINAL: YoursMistress



I hate to disagree with you, YM, but the prohibiting and allowing of alcohol had nothing to do with either constitutional ambiguity or interpretation.

In 1920, the eighteenth amendment to the constitution was passed in accordance with constitutional procedures.  This amendment specifically forbade possession, sale, etc of alcoholic beverages.

In 1933 state conventions, again in accordance with the procedures for amendment spelled out in the constitution, ratified the 21st amendment, repealing the prohibition.

I do agree that the constitution evolves and is a living document. But factually, in this case, there is no ambiguity, rather it is the constitution working as it was designed to do.


(in reply to YoursMistress)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:13:21 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

So you think under any circumstances the Supreme Court... appointed through the political process... approved by Congress... will directly rule against an article of the Constitution? There is a difference between laws to regulate arms and flat out deny them. It’s something that just will not happen… with any article.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



It was never my intent to say what would or would not happen in the future. It was my point only to highlight that, by the letter of the constitution, it was not the intent of our founding fathers, but rather the interpretation of the Supreme Court that was the final arbiter of what is and is not constitutional.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:14:25 PM   
YoursMistress


Posts: 894
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
I only meant that in reference to the changing of the document over time, specifically since it was a complete reversal.  Your point is valid. 

yours


_____________________________

May your service of love a beautiful thing; want nothing else, fear nothing else and let love be free to become what love truly is. -- Hadewijch of Antwerp

As a rule, I don't like to make general statements.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:32:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

So you think under any circumstances the Supreme Court... appointed through the political process... approved by Congress... will directly rule against an article of the Constitution? There is a difference between laws to regulate arms and flat out deny them. It’s something that just will not happen… with any article.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



It was never my intent to say what would or would not happen in the future. It was my point only to highlight that, by the letter of the constitution, it was not the intent of our founding fathers, but rather the interpretation of the Supreme Court that was the final arbiter of what is and is not constitutional.



No they are not... the Constitution itself can and has been changed. That is provided for if cumbersome.

Butch

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/27/2009 9:51:48 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

No they are not... the Constitution itself can and has been changed. That is provided for if cumbersome.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


This is an interesting point. I am nowhere knowledgeable enough on the subject to state with certainty whether the Supreme Court could find a constitutional amendment unconstitutional, although my inclination is to say that they cannot.

What they can, and by constitutional law have a right to do, is interpret the amendments as they see fit. Again, they can decide that pornography is or is not protected speech. They can decide whether or not the right to bear arms includes assault weapons or does not. And, their decision, by definition, is the constitutional law...until it is changed.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 1:55:09 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline
~FR~

Once an amendment is made and ratified and instated... it becomes part of the constitution. Therefor, the US supreme court cannot rule on the constitutionality of a constitutional amendment (or that's what they taught us in government). HOWEVER the US supreme court CAN rule on the constitutionality of a STATE'S constitutional amendment (namely, does it somehow go against the US constitution, which then invalidates it).

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 7:05:11 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

There has been a lot of talk in another posting (see..."Remember When Obama Said He Wouldn't Come After People's Guns) about what is and is not constitutionally protected right. It also speaks about the intent of the framers of the constitution in crafting certain amendments.

The fact is, however, the constitution itself answers that question. It set up the Supreme Court to interpret the constitution. By definition, what the Supreme Court decides is constitutional IS constitutional.

Therefore, if the supreme court decides, for example, that pornography is not protected speech under the first amendment, then it is not constitutionally protected. If they decide that the second amendment's language about a well regulated militia indicates that regulation is allowable to restrict people's right to keep and bear arms, then that is the constitutional law of the land.

I don't say that this a good thing or a bad thing, as I am still chewing that one over. But if you're going to go by the constitution, you have to go by all the constitution. Just as if you go by the bible, it would be wrong to say "I like the stuff about no killing...but don't at all think that no adultery stuff has any validity".

Just a little bit of fact to chew upon when things get quiet.



Well I've chewed and would like to offer the following for further chewing:

The Supreme Court is made up of men and woman appointed by the President and affirmed by the Congress with him/her generally passing a litmus test that conforms to the agenda of the party with the most power.  At times...this could be unfair, at least in some peoples view.

Dred Scott v. Sandford was a highly controversial case that intensified the national debate over slavery. The case involved Dred Scott, a slave, who was taken from a slave state to a free territory. Scott filed a lawsuit claiming that because he had lived on free soil he was entitled to his freedom. Chief Justice Roger B. Taney disagreed, ruling that blacks were not citizens and therefore could not sue in federal court. Taney further inflamed antislavery forces by declaring that Congress had no right to ban slavery from U.S. territories.
 
Plessy v. Ferguson was the infamous case that asserted that “equal but separate accommodations” for blacks on railroad cars did not violate the “equal protection under the laws” clause of the 14th Amendment. By defending the constitutionality of racial segregation, the Court paved the way for the repressive Jim Crow laws of the South. The lone dissenter on the Court, Justice John Marshall Harlan, protested, “The thin disguise of ‘equal’ accommodations…will not mislead anyone.”
On the books as Federal Law until 1954 and Brown v. Bord of Education, a long time to wait for justice from the Justices.  Can this happen again...."does a bear shit in the woods'??

Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka invalidated racial segregation in schools and led to the unraveling of de jure segregation in all areas of public life. In the unanimous decision spearheaded by Chief Justice Earl Warren, the Court invalidated the Plessy ruling, declaring “in the field of public education, the doctrine of ‘separate but equal’ has no place” and contending that “separate educational facilities are inherently unequal.” Future Supreme Court justice Thurgood Marshall was one of the NAACP lawyers who successfully argued the case.

Grutter v. Bollinger upheld the University of Michigan Law School's consideration of race and ethnicity in admissions. In her majority opinion, Justice O'Connor said that the law school used a “highly individualized, holistic review of each applicant's file.” Race, she said, was not used in a “mechanical way.” Therefore, the university's program was consistent with the requirement of “individualized consideration” set in 1978's Bakke case. “In order to cultivate a set of leaders with legitimacy in the eyes of the citizenry, it is necessary that the path to leadership be visibly open to talented and qualified individuals of every race and ethnicity,” O'Connor said. However, the court ruled that the University of Michigan's undergraduate admissions system, which awarded 20 points to black, Hispanic, and American-Indian applicants, was “nonindividualized, mechanical,” and thus unconstitutional.

Your intelligent kids might make it into a great college because they got fantastic marks on their test scores..but might not get the opportunity to attend the grad school of their choice because they failed the melanin test.  Now that's fair..dontcha think; it does provide for diversity.

I guess my personal favorite was "Bush v Gore"...and one I am sure so many here would agree with you that "if your going to go by the Constituion you have to go with the entire Constitution"

                              http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 7:20:59 AM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline
Some rights are just natural rights, period.  The Constitution enshrines those rights.  Who cares what Judge Tanney said as Chief Justice?  Dred Scott had natural rights to be free, regardless of what any paper said.  Likewise, people have a right to free expression and to self preservation, period.  Yes, that means the right to bear arms, to worship freely, and to print flyers, newspapers, or to blog unrestricted.  The Bill of Rights just prevents Congress from making a law restricting any of that.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 7:27:39 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Which is what made it such a priority for Bushit & Co. to pack the supreme court with arch conservatives, and for Ashcroft and Gonzoles to politisize the appointments for regional judges... they were wanting to rig the system so that everything was "fair and balanced"...

And now we go from a reasonable discussion about the role of the Supreme Court and Constitutional interpretation to another degeneration into name calling...
----------------------------------------------------------
As for the OP,
I'd say that when a person has to interpret the US Constitution, it is important to look at the "supporting documents" such as the Federalist Papers and other writings.  This allows more information about the "Original Intent" of the Founding Fathers. 
Unfortunately, there has been a trend towards judicial activism instead of their original charge.

Can you yell "Fire" in a crowded theater?  Sure you can.   You just get in trouble if you falsely yell "Fire" in that crowded theater AND cause panic. Doesn't mean you can't say it...just that there may be consequences if you do.


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 7:29:56 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

They may interrupt law but cannot create it.

Butch



That is a nice theory. The practice seems to be different.

Judicial discretion and judicial immunity give an extremely wide berth for the courts to engage in what is effectively the creation and writing of law.

When judges and/or courts rule in contradiction to the law, when they break with their oath, when they act outside their boundaries of authority, when they act outside the rules of procedure, when they seize jurisdiction in cases where none exists.... 

What remedies does a citizen have to, or against, any of this? To spend literally tens of thousands of dollars (sometimes hundreds of thousands), and years worth of their time, and pursue the matter in the appellate courts.

Because most citizens are not wealthy enough to buy access to the appellate courts that in itself bars them from justice in cases where they were denied justice, or due process, in the lower courts.

Then there is common law, or case law, or relying on previously adjudicated cases to base a current ruling on.

It really isn't as simple, or as certain, as the theory or ideal you suggest.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 11:05:57 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
I wonder if it is possible to ever create something perfect?...It hasn't happened yet in mans history...or the universal history at least what I can perceive.

So I guess we will have to settle with what works if not perfectly. With all its warts and setbacks our judicial system, over time, comes up with the right decisions…and that’s what counts.

As long as we are our own judges our rulings will reflect the mores of our times. That is why the Supreme Court is so important… They must try to keep changing times from changing the foundation that has served our country so well over the years.

Butch

(in reply to UncleNasty)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: What is "Constitutional" - 2/28/2009 12:30:12 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I wonder if it is possible to ever create something perfect?
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



Actually, I kind of like Obama's statement, "We must not let the perfect become the enemy of the necessary"

Now THAT is speechafying.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 19
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> What is "Constitutional" Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.156