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slvemike4u -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 1:21:48 PM)

And "personal resposibilty of leadership"is not gained when one runs for office...re:Senate Campaign,and most recently Presidential Campaign....one run in a most compelling and effective way.Sorry I don't see the problem....He ran ,he was elected and this issue is moot.




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 1:40:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Rich,,if Kennedy had been judged as a result of a hard look at his "executive" experience as Commander of PT 109,or for that matter Lincoln as the elected (re:popular vote)Captain of militia....niether would have been elected President.



Let's stop calling it "executive experience". Let's call it "direct personal responsibility" leadership. Like "the buck stops here" experience.

The military is especially good at honing this ability, or exposing someone's inability to adapt to this type of leadership responsibility. During wartime, not only can you get a bad reputation, or screw stuff up, often times such screw ups can result in the loss of life (including your own). Even making the correct decision may result in death, and failure. How does a leader handle those type of situations? Reality has a way of not accepting excuses, and in not caring about your intentions - only the results.

Kennedy had some taste of that type of leadership, on a small level, and it allowed him to learn how to handle the challenges of the Presidency, even if the scale of personal responsibility was different. He had the grounding and mindset required to learn in a relatively short period of time when President.

Perhaps the biggest lesson a leader with direct, personal responsibility learns (or should learn) is that it's often LONELY when making decisions. That you often can't (or shouldn't) fob off your responsibilities to others, and sometimes no matter what decision you make, you are going to alienate a large number of people.

But you make the decision despite that, and then live with the consequences.

Some people freeze up (mentally, emotionally, or physically) when faced with such decisions. Others simply stop using logic and any kind of decision-making process and almost become irrational "decision guessers". Some people go to great efforts to avoid the responsibility, even when it is theirs, and cause many more times the damage by their failure to accept their responsiblities.

Having had"executive experience" really means having been in those type of situations, and having had come to grips within yourself on how to proceed to avoid that "freeze" or avoidance.

Nothing in Obama's history shows that he has had that kind of experience, and has become comfortable with making those kinds of decisions, or learned how he personally will handle those kinds of decisions.

Doesn't mean that he can't. He may be a prodigy. But until he has had the opportunity to show us (the American people) that he is capable of operating in that type of environment, and under that kind of pressure ... he will be suspect in many of the minds of people who know what being in a "personally responsible" leadership position means.

Including mine.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 1:46:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And "personal resposibilty of leadership"is not gained when one runs for office...re:Senate Campaign,and most recently Presidential Campaign....one run in a most compelling and effective way.Sorry I don't see the problem....He ran ,he was elected and this issue is moot.


Have you, personally:

Ever run a business for at least a year, with say ... at least 5 employees?

Ever been a squad leader (or above) in a military organization. Especially in combat?

Ever been the President of a club, or organization?

Any other "directly responsible" leadership position?

Firm




slvemike4u -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 1:50:15 PM)

I really don't understand anyone citing Kennedy's experience as Captain of P T 109,when on balence and absent the Kennedys influence he was an abysmal failure at the job.
His only saving grace being his conduct after the sinking.....absent the influence exerted by dint of his last name a charge of dereliction of duty might well have been in the cards as a result of his conduct prior to the ramming.




samboct -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 1:59:18 PM)

Firm

I'm reading a biography of Lincoln currently.  There are a lot of parallels between Lincoln and Obama.  Lincoln served one term in Congress before being elected president and was widely seen as a country bumpkin with no manners.  Both men face great challenges- Lincoln had to deal with the mess left by his predecessor, the far more experienced and worldly Buchanan whose failure to act to enforce the Constitution (states rights versus federal rights- Buchanan believed that the states had the right to pass their own laws in violation of federal statutes) led to open rebellion within a few months of Lincoln taking office- a rebellion which Lincoln was terribly unprepared to deal with.  Lincoln was pragmatic however and recognized that he had a fragile coalition even amongst the Northern states.  Many people were furious about going to war over slavery- especially because racism was widespread and even Lincoln acknowledged that African Americans would never be the equal of white men in this country.

Obama has inherited a global financial disaster that's unprecedented in its scope.  I don't see how experience is going to solve this problem- all the people that dealt with the Great Depression are dead, and there seems to be a movement to revise the causes and the cures to make Herbert Hoover look good, and FDR look like a socialist.  As you point out- reality is a harsh teacher and has little truck with idealogues.  There is no playbook for Obama to consult that will point a clear path away from this disaster- it's going to be cut and try- and iterate till something works.  I'll take brains and a pragmatic approach anyday to "experience" which just isn't applicable.

Seems to me that Obama's doing his best not to alienate anybody and to stand on our principles- something which Lincoln espoused as well.  Neither Obama or Lincoln was a fearmonger  in marked contrast to the reign of George Bush- an idealogue who couldn't admit making a mistake and draped himself in the flag to accomplish the less than laudatory goal of invading a sovereign nation which posed no immediate threat to our country.

Isn't it in the best interests of our country and the world if Obama succeeds?  Why doesn't Obama rate the patriotic fervor of GWB?  Isn't it time for all of us to pull together?

Sam




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:07:49 PM)

Sam,

You may have noticed that I've said nothing negative about Obama since even before he was elected.

I'm giving him his chance, even if my gut suspects less than stellar results.

Your analogy to Lincoln may be applicable in some respects. I hope so.

My main comments in this thread was an attempt to explain the concern that some have about his lack of "personal leadership experience", and not any attempt to say that he would, could, or should fail.

I hope for the best.

I do not intend to fall into the easy trap that many rabid anti-bushites fell into, without any ability to see a different point of view, or recognize that just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them an idiot, a criminal or mentally retarded.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:12:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I really don't understand anyone citing Kennedy's experience as Captain of P T 109,when on balence and absent the Kennedys influence he was an abysmal failure at the job.
His only saving grace being his conduct after the sinking.....absent the influence exerted by dint of his last name a charge of dereliction of duty might well have been in the cards as a result of his conduct prior to the ramming.


Not that I necessarily agree with your assessment ... but assuming it accurate for the purposes of this discussion ...

Don't you think it was better that he had his "come to Jesus" moment when it only affected a small number of others, and himself, and not when he was President of the United States, facing down the Soviet Union?

That's the key issue about the lack of "executive experience".

Firm




SpinnerofTales -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:24:27 PM)

quote:

Don't you think it was better that he had his "come to Jesus" moment when it only affected a small number of others, and himself, and not when he was President of the United States, facing down the Soviet Union?

That's the key issue about the lack of "executive experience".
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Did it bother you equally  that GW avoided his "come to Jesus" moment by having his father arrange for him to spend the Viet Nam war safely in Texas? Or that his only forays into business were utter failures? I'm not making judgements here, I'm just curious to see if you apply your standards to everyone in government.






rulemylife -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:36:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

rule, it's pretty obvious to any of us with any kind of "executive experience" that you haven't had much, and not much understanding of what personal accountable leadership is about.

Obama may or may not come through in an unexpected pinch or crisis. We will see.

But I will tell you that having personal responsibility of leadership is often best learned in a smaller, less critical organization, than in arguably the most important executive position in the world.

That's all that is being said, but it seems that you take it as a personal slur against Obama. It's really not. It's simply a recognition of his reality.

Firm



Interesting that you claim I take things as a "personal slur" against Obama while you take a personal slur at me.

I think that speaks for itself.




MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:37:08 PM)

if you think he committed treason then prove it.  it should be easy now that obama is in charge of the executive branch ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yeah,cheney the vice-treasonist, worked out real good.

Didn`t he?

Nuff said....




MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:43:12 PM)

the tech boom of the late 90's was also another pyramid scam.  There was never any profits to support those stock prices.  The Chinese send a message to Obama telling him not to go into anymore debt because they aren't loaning the US anymore money.  Then Obama sends Hillary to beg the Chinese to loan us more money and we will ignore there human rights issues. At least Obama hasn't bombed the Chinese embassy yet like bill clinton did ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

Really?

So you didn't find Bush taking the federal debt from under $5 trillion to over $11 trillion scary?

You didn't find the $700 billion bank bailout Bush pushed through scary?

You didn't find the fact we have been importing a record trade deficit from China throughout the Bush administration which labeled the country (and rightfully so) a major violator of human rights scary?



Certainly these things are really bad. Bush economy was a scam pyramid scheme; it really never recovered from the recession that started year 2000. The hope that government deficit spending mysteriously revives economy in few years is very strange wishful thinking. I would not pump a penny into the system that does not work productively. Major structural reforms are needed in the economy. Regrettably, Washington incl. president office is run by corporate power and special interest and before anything meaningful can happen the system needs to crash first.





rulemylife -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:49:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Some people freeze up (mentally, emotionally, or physically) when faced with such decisions.


Would that be anything like Dubya after Andy Card told him what was happening on 9/11?

That great "deer in the headlights" look that showed his true leadership qualities.

And his immediate decisive response to the situation by continuing what he was doing while looking like a scared puppy.




MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:49:46 PM)

duh everyone knows bush use to drink.  Hell even hsi 2 daughters drink.  The unproven rumors im talking about is the ones that say he used coke and other illegal drugs.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

i like how unproven rumors about Bush are considered facts with Obama supporters.
quote:


No shit?

He liked cocaine?

Have you been living in a cocoon and somehow missed all the reports of Dubya's cocaine use?  Not to mention he had to be "born again" because apparently he couldn't control his drinking.



George W. Bush substance abuse controversy - Wikipedia

.Bush has described his days before his religious conversion in his 40s as his "nomadic" period and "irresponsible youth" and admitted to drinking "too much" in those years. In Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President by James Hatfield, Bush is quoted as saying that "alcohol began to compete with my energies ... I'd lose focus". Although Bush states that he was not an alcoholic, he has acknowledged that he was "drinking too much",[1] and that he couldn't remember a day when he hadn't had a drink, including his stay at Phillips Academy, where not only was he underage but alcohol was prohibited on campus, as well as at Yale University where, conversely, "hard drinking" was considered a badge of honor.





MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 8:52:39 PM)

Many forget one of Bushs biggest critics before the war was Rush limbaugh.  Because Bush was spending like a liberal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha
But I think Bush was a radical spendthrift, of the type that comes along only so often, so I don't get why people are suddenly up in arms about Washington spending habits.
.


Well a lot of us were equally critical of the spending during Bush's administration too.  Those who are acting suprised and appalled about the sudden increase in spending now are just pretty ignorant that it's nothing new.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that people should actually, ya know, limit spending to what they can afford.  Shocking, I know.




MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:03:59 PM)

equipment isnt the biggest expense for the military its actually the humans that run the machines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Obama has said he would actually increase defense spending, and this is why....

All that equipment that has been wasted in the last several years, needs replaced. Even if military actions are reduced or stopped, all of that equipment needs repaired, overhauled or replaced. Once that spending is done, then there should be a reduction.


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct


What would I be happy seeing Obama do?  We need cutbacks in defense spending.  Although most people tend to believe the BS that Bush's spending on defense has kept this country safe, the reality is that they were as incompetent in this arena as they were everywhere else.  We're on the hook for idiotic and useless expensive weapons systems ranging from the F-35 (a turkey as ever was) to "brown water" nuclear submarines to a ballistic missile defense system that won't work.  Not to mention we have a navy which could whip the rest of the world combined- a bit overkill if you ask me.

Sam







MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:13:42 PM)

For 2 years Obama has been pushing this comparison to Lincoln.  Before being compared to one of the greatest presidents in US history don't you think you should be in office for a few years as president ;) I don't remember any other president in there first month in office pushing a comparison to other former US presidents.


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Sam,

You may have noticed that I've said nothing negative about Obama since even before he was elected.

I'm giving him his chance, even if my gut suspects less than stellar results.

Your analogy to Lincoln may be applicable in some respects. I hope so.

My main comments in this thread was an attempt to explain the concern that some have about his lack of "personal leadership experience", and not any attempt to say that he would, could, or should fail.

I hope for the best.

I do not intend to fall into the easy trap that many rabid anti-bushites fell into, without any ability to see a different point of view, or recognize that just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them an idiot, a criminal or mentally retarded.

Firm




rulemylife -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

duh everyone knows bush use to drink.  Hell even hsi 2 daughters drink.  The unproven rumors im talking about is the ones that say he used coke and other illegal drugs.


Bush Gets Stoned by the World Media (washingtonpost.com)

The New York Times broke the Bush marijuana story Friday in a front-page report on Doug Wead, a Christian activist who has published a book based in part on conversations with Bush that Wead secretly recorded in 1998 and 1999.

On Wead's tapes, whose authenticity the White House does not dispute, Bush came close to admitting he had smoked marijuana and avoided answering a question about whether he had used cocaine.

"I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried," Bush said.




MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:17:36 PM)

Bush beat a popular Democrat Texas gov Ann Richards and also was reelected as governor.  The only evidence of daddy using influence to get his son out of Vietnam comes from a partisan unreliable source.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

Don't you think it was better that he had his "come to Jesus" moment when it only affected a small number of others, and himself, and not when he was President of the United States, facing down the Soviet Union?

That's the key issue about the lack of "executive experience".
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



Did it bother you equally  that GW avoided his "come to Jesus" moment by having his father arrange for him to spend the Viet Nam war safely in Texas? Or that his only forays into business were utter failures? I'm not making judgements here, I'm just curious to see if you apply your standards to everyone in government.







MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:28:57 PM)

exactly..bush frozeup
That's something that would never occur to McCain.
When someone has lived after actually being in an airplane suffering a concussion after its crashed into the water and fish are swimming over the canopy....that's someone that doesn't freeze in an emergency. 
Obama and Bush both needed experienced foreign policy VPS for the exact same reason.  But when the shit hits the fan usually the Vp is at another location and cant hand hold the president.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Some people freeze up (mentally, emotionally, or physically) when faced with such decisions.


Would that be anything like Dubya after Andy Card told him what was happening on 9/11?

That great "deer in the headlights" look that showed his true leadership qualities.

And his immediate decisive response to the situation by continuing what he was doing while looking like a scared puppy.





MasterShake69 -> RE: A Question for liberals... (3/2/2009 9:31:47 PM)

was there anybody around him to say Bush got high.  Anybody to dispute he got handed the joint but didnt smoke it ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

duh everyone knows bush use to drink.  Hell even hsi 2 daughters drink.  The unproven rumors im talking about is the ones that say he used coke and other illegal drugs.


Bush Gets Stoned by the World Media (washingtonpost.com)

The New York Times broke the Bush marijuana story Friday in a front-page report on Doug Wead, a Christian activist who has published a book based in part on conversations with Bush that Wead secretly recorded in 1998 and 1999.

On Wead's tapes, whose authenticity the White House does not dispute, Bush came close to admitting he had smoked marijuana and avoided answering a question about whether he had used cocaine.

"I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried," Bush said.





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