RE: Republic or Democracy? (Full Version)

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corysub -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 9:17:00 AM)

I guess it' a truism that we get the government we deserve.  As a group of people we have been so engrossed in the struggles in our own lives and generally gave a nod to whomever won the next election, pouted if our guy lost..but not really much more than if the Yankees beat the Mets as I did in NYC.  Young people are not asked to serve the country in any way since the draft law ended in 1973 which, I believe, was a terrible mistake since so many of us came of age in those years of military service and came out the better for it. 

Now, however, times are much different.  We are seeing a collapse of the financial system globablly that has not been seen since the 1930's...home values in most of the country are down, albeit not as bad in the go go states of California, Nevada and Florida, as well as Detroit suffering from the collapse of the auto industry.
We are ALL focusing on our government and what the pols are doing to turn business around and prevent a deepening recession from turning into a depression.  What we are waking up to is the fact that in those years of our acceptance of the "status quo" we are finding ourselves with a dysfunctional Congress fighting with the same bitterness if not the AK47's of the Sunni v Shite in Iraq, and led by a charismatic man that few really know, untested and with no experience.  When Woodrow Wilson instituted the draft during WW1 some people of the day wrote that we had just gone from a constitutional republic to an "unconstitutional empire".
"There is no provision in the United States Constitution for drafting men to serve in foreign wars. Wilson "
ignored this fact, and so did Congress. So did the Supreme Court.

If there is a single piece of legislation that marks the final transition of the United States from a Constitutional republic to an unconstitutional empire, the imposition of the draft in 1917 was that event, in the opinion of some in that day.   Lincoln had imposed the draft, but he defended this decision on the basis of putting down a domestic insurrection. The Confederacy had imposed the draft, but it defended this decision on the basis of defending against foreign invasion. Each decision was consistent with its respective view regarding the legality of secession. Each decision had a Constitutional justification. The draft of World War I did not."
                                         http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north235.html
I have no clarity as to where we are heading today...only fears.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 9:24:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I guess it' a truism that we get the government we deserve. 


I kinda disagree here...I certainly don't recall ever raping a nun.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 9:32:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.


The extreme right on the political scale is anarchy, or zero government.  The extreme left is absolute government.


You are sooo wrong.
http://libertariansocialism.net/
http://www.reallibertarianism.com/
Read and Learn.


No, I'm not wrong.  Conservatism has always been "Right"...it's a seperate scale than the social thing, which got blurred due to the Republican union with the Religious.

Left is absolute government, Right is zero government.  The "Religious Right" has actually been left of center for some time.  They just want to control different things than the other leftists.




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 9:57:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.


The extreme right on the political scale is anarchy, or zero government.  The extreme left is absolute government.


You are sooo wrong.
http://libertariansocialism.net/
http://www.reallibertarianism.com/
Read and Learn.


No, I'm not wrong.  Conservatism has always been "Right"...it's a seperate scale than the social thing, which got blurred due to the Republican union with the Religious.

Left is absolute government, Right is zero government.  The "Religious Right" has actually been left of center for some time.  They just want to control different things than the other leftists.

You don't get to make up you own definition of the left/right political spectrum.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:01:02 AM)

I didn't.




corysub -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:01:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I guess it' a truism that we get the government we deserve. 


I kinda disagree here...I certainly don't recall ever raping a nun.


Whew...that went way over my head. I guess I don't have your sense of humor.did I say that...??  or did this post to the wrong thread?




slaveboy291 -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:04:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.


The extreme right on the political scale is anarchy, or zero government.  The extreme left is absolute government.


You are sooo wrong.
http://libertariansocialism.net/
http://www.reallibertarianism.com/
Read and Learn.


Right-wing= small to little goverment

Anarchy= no goverment.

Sounds right-wing to me.

Citing a website on libertarianism as proof otherwise is kinda like citing something on WWE.com about UFC.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:06:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I guess it' a truism that we get the government we deserve. 


I kinda disagree here...I certainly don't recall ever raping a nun.


Whew...that went way over my head. I guess I don't have your sense of humor.did I say that...??  or did this post to the wrong thread?


Well, to explain the reference (or at least to give a hint)...what kind of government do you think someone would deserve for raping a nun?




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:06:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I didn't.

Yes, you did.

Right has always meant the conservative and reactionary position since the terms origination in the 1790's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_right
http://www.answers.com/topic/right-wing-politics




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:09:18 AM)

Terms have evolved since the 1790's.   Of course, depending on where you are in the world, the definitions change, but I grew up with the understanding that left was liberal/big government, and right was small/limited government.  I've seen political tests that scored the same way.

So just because you're not familiar, don't claim I made it up.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:17:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Yes, you did.
 

Hell, if you watch the video in the original link, it even describes right as zero government and left as total government...are you suggesting I invented that video? :p




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:23:36 AM)

I'm suggesting that that isn't the usual or common definition of left and right. It is part of a specific attempt to change the definition to dump fascism on the left instead of on the right where it always has been.




Aylee -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:28:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Well they hung Benedict Arnold...


Ya know, I keep seeing this pop up.  Benedict Arnold, being hung.  Maybe you are thinking Vidkun Quisling, although that was by firing squad.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:31:41 AM)

While I have some disagreements with the OP's video, I do have to agree with one major point it makes - people who ascribe fascism to the right often fail to define their terms.




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:35:31 AM)

They use the term in the usual and accepted fashion. Right wing means conservative and/or reactionary. Fascism was reactionary and was built on conservative propoganda.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:44:02 AM)

Which leads to the failure in describing terms.  Reactionary is a far cry from conservative.  Maybe that's why some time ago there were people who decided there needed clarification, and since fascism has more in common with socialism than conservatism, the total government to zero government scale seems a more accurate, easier to define scale.

Which in the end doesn't matter...it's all semantics.  "Left/Right" means only what we make it mean.  It's just inaccurate to equate "Fascism to Conservatism" by claiming they both are on the "Right" as some liberals like to do.




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:53:20 AM)

Just as its inaccurate to equate liberal with communism or socialism which conservatives do at every turn. What's good for the goose etc.

As to the "new" left/right definition it is wrong on many fronts. Traditional right wingers are not for limited government just for government to be limited in their areas of interest. They want an expansive police force, military but a limited regulatory operation. Traditional leftists prefer different areas of government to be emphasized.




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 10:58:56 AM)

I think a more accurate fear is that liberalism can lead to socialism, which isn't an unfounded fear.  After all, even "Neo-conservatism" has been more socialist than I like.  (Which is why I refuse to associate myself with the republican party as well).




Raiikun -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 11:00:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As to the "new" left/right definition it is wrong on many fronts. Traditional right wingers are not for limited government just for government to be limited in their areas of interest. They want an expansive police force, military but a limited regulatory operation. Traditional leftists prefer different areas of government to be emphasized.


The "new" left/right definition (as you put it) would put those people on the left as well.




DomKen -> RE: Republic or Democracy? (3/2/2009 11:03:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I think a more accurate fear is that liberalism can lead to socialism, which isn't an unfounded fear.  After all, even "Neo-conservatism" has been more socialist than I like.  (Which is why I refuse to associate myself with the republican party as well).

In the opinion of most leftists conservatism leads far too easily into a kind of nationalism not far removed from fascism. We saw some pretty nasty nationalist stuff post 9/11 from the beloved conservatives of the GOP.

So stop claiming this is somehow a one way situation. You don't like socialism, why is beyond me you've lived in one for your entire life, and I don't like fascist states and feel that GWB, Santorum, Lott etc. are barely a step away from Brownshirts.




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