Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Republic or Democracy?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Republic or Democracy? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 6:56:31 AM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
Many folks seem to be confused in re what form of gov't we have, or are supposed to have.

I found this little film on the net yesterday and thought it a decent explanation, though perhaps a bit oversimplified.

http://www.flixxy.com/political-systems.htm

Uncle Nasty
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 8:00:47 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
Thanks for the link...it was a fairly presented review of the various forms of government.  My concern is not where we are as a government in March of 2009..but where we are heading with a huge government, multiples of involvement in the lives of citizens than the founding fathers could ever imagine.  We are led now by politicians who are essentially an oligarchy with the possibility of control passing from one party to the other every two years in the party that represents us in either house of Congress...and a President of one of those parties.  Barring a total backlash from the public over a dynamite issue...most of those "elected" are pretty much gerrymanderd into lifetime jobs and become not unlike the very "prince and princesses" that the founders revolting against over two hundred years ago. You can see it in the arrogance of politicians of both parties.


So where we will be in three or four years is the concern I have...and I fear it could be a turning point in the history of America as we knew it for major "change" and conflict. A deepening recession/depression could be the catalyst for total anarchy in a country known for cities to burn because people got pissed off at some event.  It will be a heck of a lot worse if hundreds of millions of people go at each other because of perceived or real injustice coming from Washington, D.C.  now going to essentially be added as the 51st State by the democrat party in an unconstitutional move that will result in what could be a deciding vote in major legislation.

What is my nightmare scenario...well..here is the script I am so afraid of seeing as a documentary...

"Beginning with the Iraq and Afganistan wars, along with the  massive importation of illegal immigrants, the face of Americn life was changing far more rapidly than the governing body could deal with. Political infighting was and always would be a common trait in any system, but even the greatest of Americans, fell victim to the whims of politicians. The social instability that resulted from inequities in the class system gave way to rise of demagogues.   The use of the citizen assemblies and extreme media pundits for popular agendas tore at the very fabric of power.
 
Men and women like XXXX and YYYY, with their own personal agendas and rivalries wreaked havoc in an already weakened structure. Partisan politics of the conservative Republican Senators trying to keep power with the elite class, while the tactics of the democrat party, who looked to the lower classes for support, divided the people and classes into what seemed like warring factions. For three years, the climate was unpredictable at best, and brutally bloody at worst.
 
By the time of the election of the charismatic Barack Obama,,the stage was already set for a single man to assume power and stabilize the Republic. Obama was neither the only man responsible for the fall, nor the one man who could stop it, but his role in the final demise is undeniable. He neither started the fall nor finished it, but continued a cycle of events that made its collapse irreversible. Contemporaries of this brilliant politician hold as much blame as the great man himself, however."
How different events may have been without the plays for power and a bit of humility among the House and the Senate"?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We will never know....But ask any Jew if he believes in the deepest recess of his heart that there is always the risk of another holocost...Why do you think the ACLU is so paranoid about anything even remotely a possiblity for anti-semitism.  You might disagree totally with their extreme methods..but any reasonable person will totally understand their mission.

Ready, aim, Fire!!!!!!! Three words that don't mean "I love you".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The scenario above was "plagerized"with a few changes in names and parties...It is a discussion of the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of dictatorship  .. Far fetched...the ranting of a neocon.. not a risk to our freedom...?  Possibly, YOU think about it and make your own determination.

Beginning with the Punic Wars and Roman conquest outside of Italy, followed by massive importation of slaves, the face of Roman life was changing far more rapidly than the governing body could deal with. Political infighting was and always would be a common trait in any system, but even the greatest of Romans like Scipio Africanus, fell victim to the whims of politicians. The social instability that resulted from inequities in the class system gave way to rise of demagogues like the brothers Gracchi. The use of the citizen assemblies for popular agendas tore at the very fabric of Senatorial power.
Men like Marius and Sulla, with their own personal agendas and rivalries wreaked havoc in an already weakened structure. Partisan politics of the conservative Optimate Senators trying to keep power with the elite class, while the tactics of the Populares, who looked to the lower classes for support, divided the people and classes into what seemed like warring factions. For nearly 100 years, the climate was unpredictable at best, and brutally bloody at worst.
By the time of the rise of Gaius Julius Caesar, the stage was set for a single man to assume power and stabilize the Empire. Caesar was neither the only man responsible for the fall, nor the one man who could stop it, but his role in the final demise is undeniable. He neither started the fall nor finished it, but continued a cycle of events that made its collapse irreversible. Contemporaries of the brilliant general and politician hold as much blame as the great man himself, however. How different events may have been without the plays for power and a bit of humility among the Senate.

                         http://www.unrv.com/roman-republic/fall-of-roman-republic.php
  
                          http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/11/is_obamas_civil.php
                        

< Message edited by corysub -- 3/1/2009 8:16:05 AM >

(in reply to UncleNasty)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 9:14:16 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
The founders created a document able to change with the times,ie, amendments and a Democratic process..

They did that on purpose,making the Constitution relevant,virtually forever.

Now, an elected president torturing people and suspending habeas corpus thus trampling the Constitution?

That,.......is something the founding fathers could never have imagined.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/1/2009 9:15:24 AM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 9:19:47 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The founders created a document able to change with the times,ie, amendments and a Democratic process..

They did that on purpose,making the Constitution relevant,virtually forever.

Now, an elected president torturing people and suspending habeas corpus thus trampling the Constitution?

That,.......is something the founding fathers could never have imagined.


Well they hung Benedict Arnold...maybe we should have just hung those 245 "people" left in Gitmo.
You know..give them a better death than that offered to innocent men, women and children by terrorists.  And every person in the world knows that in a war every prisoner is given habeas corpus.  You have a point...thank God, or rather than 53% of the voters that Obama is in place.
or rather, as the Gitmo "people" must be praying.."thank you Allah"...!

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 10:15:52 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
Cory,far be it from me to disagree with such an expert on all things American.....but they hung Benedict Arnold ?....really.....I didn't know that,silly me I thought he sailed off to England.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 10:23:09 AM   
Sir Daddy


Posts: 53
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline
The United States is a thinly veiled Plutocratic Oligarchy pretending to be a Democratic Republic.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 10:39:25 AM   
Sir Daddy


Posts: 53
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Well they hung Benedict Arnold...maybe we should have just hung those 245 "people" left in Gitmo.
You know..give them a better death than that offered to innocent men, women and children by terrorists.  And every person in the world knows that in a war every prisoner is given habeas corpus.  You have a point...thank God, or rather than 53% of the voters that Obama is in place.
or rather, as the Gitmo "people" must be praying.."thank you Allah"...!

1.  Benedict Arnold was not hung.
2.  If you think a slow, painfull hanging is a "superior" way to die than the relatively painless death of being blown up, you're in the minority.
3.  I think it's an insult to the spirit of war itself to use that word to describe the insanity of the last 6yrs.
4. Their Allah and your God are one and the same.  HAHAHA 


(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 10:54:05 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub


Well they hung Benedict Arnold...maybe we should have just hung those 245 "people" left in Gitmo.
You know..give them a better death than that offered to innocent men, women and children by terrorists.  And every person in the world knows that in a war every prisoner is given habeas corpus.


What terrorists do does not justify what we do.

Either we follow the rule of law or we become as lawless as they are seeking revenge.

Which, if you read Bin-Laden's statements and Al-Quaeda documents, is exactly what they hoped to accomplish with 9/11.

To disrupt U.S. society so it would fail from the inside, by abandoning our principles and inciting the Muslim world against us.

A goal Bush & Co. blindly helped them toward.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/1/2009 10:55:31 AM >

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 11:30:07 AM   
submaleinzona


Posts: 77
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline
The American Creed actually refers to the U.S. as a "democracy in a republic," and it's often referred to as a "representative democracy" as well.  The U.S. is not a true democracy.  It is a republic, so the video is accurate.  I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with their revised version of the political spectrum either, but it is a fact that most governments of the world are oligarchies, rule by an elite few over the masses.  Even in the United States, at the beginning, only a certain class of people could vote, so most people couldn't vote, and even today, now that we have universal suffrage, most people still don't vote. 

The video is also accurate in that there are no guarantees with anything.  Even our own republic has some weaknesses to it.  The idea that we live according to the rule of law is a sound one and in keeping with a republican style government, but it still requires some group of people to oversee and hold stewardship over the enforcement and interpretation of laws.  That's where it can get a bit dicey, as the reputation and honor of the legal profession can often be called into question.  The average Joe often doesn't stand a chance against wealthy corporations which can hire the best lawyers and can work the bureaucracy like real pros.  Even if they don't resort to bribery or other forms of corruption, they still have a distinct advantage over the average citizen.  "One man, one vote" and "equal rights before the law" seem more like sayings than anything reflective of reality.  It's not always like that, of course, and sometimes, the little guy might win his day in court.  But there are still oligarchical underpinnings within our "nation of laws."  It's almost impossible to avoid in any society. 

But by the same token, the U.S. is a democracy in the sense that we, the voters, still have the real power to make changes, whether positive or negative.  For example, it's technically possible for the people to elect people to the Senate, House of Representatives, and their own state legislatures to call a Constitutional Convention and rewrite the entire Constitution if they wish.  We could literally vote ourselves into a dictatorship.  That is technically possible, but not really plausible or reasonable to consider at this point.  But then on the other hand, when so many people can't even name their own Senator or Representative or even be able to point out their own state on a map, it does get kind of scary when you consider that some of these people actually vote. 

It's my understanding that during the Great Depression, there were a significant number of people who actually advocated that America become a dictatorship.  It was a minority viewpoint, to be sure, but it wasn't considered so abnormal or unconscionable as such talk might be today.  Still, it probably made it easier for people to accept certain wartime restrictions on civil liberties, as well as what our government was doing during the Cold War.  People accepted the internment of Japanese-Americans and the widening of the scope of the FBI to include wiretapping and surveillance on anyone deemed "unfriendly" to the United States, even if they were U.S. citizens.  As a result, men like J. Edgar Hoover became the most powerful men in Washington, more powerful than any member of Congress or even the President himself.  Hoover wanted to head up both the FBI and the CIA, but, fortunately, Truman nixed that idea.  We built up this big behemoth to fight World War 2 and then the Cold War, but it's a monster that got out of control.  A lot of times, people didn't really know what was being done in their names until after the fact - sometimes years after the fact.  Neither legality nor the will of the people seemed to matter much.  That doesn't seem like a republic or a democracy, but rather, an oligarchy, as the video presented. 

I'd like to think that things have changed since then.  With the revelations that came out about Vietnam and Watergate, it seems that there are more watchful eyes on the government these days, which is a good thing. 

What always gives me hope is that there are still many people out there who believe in freedom and know its value to our society.  But admittedly, when more and more people are hungry and cold, their political values might tend to shift. 



(in reply to UncleNasty)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 11:45:03 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2008/11/is_obamas_civil.php
                       

How many times have I got to debunk this lie?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2247442/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#2247936

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 6:03:54 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Well they hung Benedict Arnold


I guess this statement shouldn't be suprising.  I mean revisionist history is a favourite passtime of netcons.   Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 6:22:21 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
I don't see how you can call America a "democracy" .  When was the last time the wants of the "marjority" had attention paid to their demads.  Our representatives are enshrined in protected venues..they only bow to the wishes of the majority if it fits in to their purposes....and, If they don't like it...too bad seems to be the mantra of the day. 


(in reply to submaleinzona)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 6:27:25 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
Good question. I would say the United States is a Quasi-Aristo Oligarchical Bureaucratic State. 

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to slaveboy291)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 7:49:55 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
Benedict Arnold

"Andre was the courier between Arnold and Clinton regarding the closing of the deal. With his ship forced back by American troops, Andre was sent on foot back to British lines with a pass from Arnold as well as documents for Clinton in his sock. He was captured and placed into American custody when the documents were found. Arnold heard of his capture and was able to make his escape...to the same ship, the Vulture, which Andre had arrived on. Andre was put on trial, and met his death as a spy. Arnold defected to the British and received substantial remuneration for his defection. These included pay, land in Canada, pensions for himself, his wife and his children (five surviving from Peggy and three from his first marriage to Margaret) and a military commission as a British Provincial brigadier general.

The British provided handsomely for Arnold, but never completely trusted him. He was never given an important military command. They moved to London where he found no job, some admiration and even some contempt. He moved his family to Canada where he reentered the shipping business. The Tories there disliked him and had no use for him, and eventually he returned his family to London. When the fighting began between France and England, he tried again for military service, but to no avail. His shipping ventures eventually failed and he died in 1801, virtually unknown, his wife joining him in death three years later."

http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/served/arnold.html

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 8:15:40 PM   
submaleinzona


Posts: 77
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I don't see how you can call America a "democracy" .  When was the last time the wants of the "marjority" had attention paid to their demads.  Our representatives are enshrined in protected venues..they only bow to the wishes of the majority if it fits in to their purposes....and, If they don't like it...too bad seems to be the mantra of the day. 


I said it was a democracy in a republic - a representative democracy, not a true democracy.  But when was the last time the "majority" truly flexed its own muscle?  The reason why our representatives are in the position they're in is because they realize just how easily led the voters can be.  Half the people don't vote anyway, and the other half are too easily led by smooth-talking politicians and media glitz. 

So, if America is not a democracy, then it's only because too many people don't really want it.  If people don't exercise their Constitutional prerogative to vote these bums out of office, then that's what we get. 

Everything is the fault of the voters.  The voters are responsible for our President and for all the Congressmen and Senators.  The President appoints Supreme Court justices and other Federal judges, along with cabinet posts, the CIA director, generals, admirals, etc., and Congress confirms these appointments.  If the people didn't like what was going on, they would have voted for someone else in another party besides Republican or Democrat.  But they didn't, so we have to assume that all of what our government does has the mandate of the people. 

If the people didn't want it, they would have voted for someone else.  That's what it all comes down to, in a nutshell. 


(in reply to corysub)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/1/2009 8:34:38 PM   
Sir Daddy


Posts: 53
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleinzona

It is a republic, so the video is accurate.



Let's not go overboard.  I wouldn't say that video was accurate just because it expressed one undisputed fact.  It got one fact right.  It got a few other things right too.  But overall, it's a propaganda video and riddled with half truths and misleading information.

(in reply to submaleinzona)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/2/2009 2:43:49 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Now, an elected president torturing people and suspending habeas corpus thus trampling the Constitution?

That,.......is something the founding fathers could never have imagined.



"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

- the US Constitution.


Thus it seems the founding fathers, did in fact, imagine the possible necessity for suspending habeas corpus.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 3/2/2009 2:45:02 AM >

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/2/2009 2:47:17 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
  Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.


The extreme right on the political scale is anarchy, or zero government.  The extreme left is absolute government.


(in reply to slaveboy291)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/2/2009 3:03:51 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291
Probably learned this from the same revisionist history book that says the extreme right-wing Nazi party was left-wing.


The extreme right on the political scale is anarchy, or zero government.  The extreme left is absolute government.


You are sooo wrong.
http://libertariansocialism.net/
http://www.reallibertarianism.com/
Read and Learn.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Republic or Democracy? - 3/2/2009 6:04:17 AM   
submaleinzona


Posts: 77
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir Daddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleinzona

It is a republic, so the video is accurate.



Let's not go overboard.  I wouldn't say that video was accurate just because it expressed one undisputed fact.  It got one fact right.  It got a few other things right too.  But overall, it's a propaganda video and riddled with half truths and misleading information.


Well, actually, I was just referring to that one particular fact.  That is, the video is accurate in its claim that the U.S. is a republic and not a true democracy.  But there were other parts of the video with which I disagreed, namely their revision of the political spectrum. 

There may have been some ulterior motive or hidden agenda behind the video (I didn't see anywhere listed as to who produced it or what organization), but I have to say that I must agree with the premise that people in any society need to be more vigilant and watch their government more closely in order to prevent abuses.  I think that's good advice, no matter what political system or party one supports.

(in reply to Sir Daddy)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Republic or Democracy? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109