RE: GPS tracking technology (Full Version)

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cadenas -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 1:58:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

~FR~

Can't they implant small chips in us now? I wanna say they were... RFID? I can't remember.

Can't they work similar to GPS in that, if you pass a receiver it can record that you've been by?



Yes, that's correct. Every single US Passport now has an RFID chip, and Wal-Mart started putting them into a lot of their merchandise. It works very differently from GPS.

The RFID chip actually doesn't do anything. It doesn't even have a battery. Most RFID chips simply contains a serial number, very similar to the familiar bar codes, but each chip has a different number. When you walk past an RFID reader (depending on the type, within a few inches to several 100 feet away), the RFID tag responds and says "hey, I'm serial number XYZ". A few years from now, there will be RFID readers EVERYWHERE, so once you tie the information from all of them together, indeed you can retrace a person's steps pretty accurately.

The insiduous thing about it is that these readers really are fairly soon going to be everywhere. Airports already have them, of course, to check passports. Walmart has them. And every time you walk into a Walmart, their RFID reader can see "here is somebody who bought the Jeans with serial number 123897 that were purchased with a credit card from John Smith." When you then proceed to pay for your purchases, the Walmart database sees "he bought Valentine's candy and paid with cash". This is information that could get supoenaed in a nasty divorce trial. The database can also see "he has visited three other Wal-marts two states away, so he is a frequent traveler." Once other stores start also using RFID, the same scanner can also see "he bought the T-shirt from Target and the sweater is homemate from wool purchased at Michaels. And he is wearing underwear from the lady's department".




Asherdelampyr -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:03:02 AM)

have they made RFID chips small enough to fit into wool thread?
interesting

with the widespread use of second-hand clothing stores it doesnt really matter, truth is that (at least in America) Most people dont keep things all that long. so tracking them like that becomes pointless. The readers that Walmart and most other retail stores use is just to identify theft easier than with the old magnetic-based ones. Still easier to track people using old fashioned methods...



cadenas -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:07:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
ETA: Ara, the difference is one of power, the ones that I think you are referring to were not very strong, and could only transmit 50 miles or so, GPS systems can transmit to a satellite that is orbiting at the lowest level. ((Though some actually transmit to one of several Geo-synchronous sats.)) While the implants do exist (They currently use them in pets) they aren't powerful enough to work as true GPS transmitters. the ones that are that powerful are still entirely too expensive for use, not counting the price a surgeon will charge you to implant one (Id go with a plastic surgeon, they are good at implanting things from what I hear :P)


No, that's not quite correct. GPS is strictly a receiving technology. The satellites are not even able to receive anything back from the ground.

GPS locators always use some other mechanism, usually cell phone transmissions, to report their position back.

Cell phones (with or without GPS) work yet differently; they can be located primarily through the tower than the phone uses. GPS only serves to supplement that information.

There are currently NO GPS implants - and I doubt that they will ever be possible due to the need for a strong battery, as well as the problems with sending radiation from within the body. The chips used in pets are RFID tags that simply contain a serial number. The advertising for them actually is pretty misleading. You can't use the chips to locate your pet, unless the pet already is at a vet or a humane society and its RFID chip has been read there. Basically, it works much like a car's license plate. There is no computer in the world that would answer the question "where is the car with the California plate 8ABY123 right now?" unless it is sitting in a police impound lot.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:10:51 AM)

Not to be to contrary but I have seen the transmitters that are that small... The satellite company I worked for used them to design a new type of Auto pointing dish... There may be danger in transmitting through flesh, but that danger is minimal at best.



cadenas -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:13:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

have they made RFID chips small enough to fit into wool thread?
interesting


Yes. They are referred to as "powder type" Hitachi makes them; the chip is 0.05mm x 0.05mm. That's 1/500th of an inch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
with the widespread use of second-hand clothing stores it doesnt really matter, truth is that (at least in America) Most people dont keep things all that long. so tracking them like that becomes pointless. The readers that Walmart and most other retail stores use is just to identify theft easier than with the old magnetic-based ones. Still easier to track people using old fashioned methods...


Right now, that's true. But it will be changing. And tracking people with just a few items that they do keep is pretty trivial.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:15:52 AM)

hadnt heard of the "powder type" before, guess I spent too much time playing with different technology.

It is my opinion that by the time we are able to track people effectively 100% of the time that it will be found that it isnt worth it to do so.



cadenas -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr

Not to be to contrary but I have seen the transmitters that are that small... The satellite company I worked for used them to design a new type of Auto pointing dish... There may be danger in transmitting through flesh, but that danger is minimal at best.


No, you are right. Small transmitters to satellites exist. For instance, for the Iridium phones (one of the two satellites that collided a few weeks ago was for the Iridium phone system). Point is that it's for a different kind of satellite, and also that they do require pretty substantial amounts of battery. In theory, a GPS locator could use the Iridium system instead of a cell phone to report back. But in practice, Iridium is far too expensive for that.

Incidentally, both the GPS satellites and Iridium are in low-earth orbit, not geostationary. So we are talking about "only" 700 miles instead of 22,000 miles.

An implant would have to have an energy source that can survive for a lifetime without maintenance. Unlike for a pacemaker, people probably wouldn't tolerate having to go to the hospital for a battery change.

Off topic - the smallest radio receiver ever (and likely also forever in the future) is a single carbon nanotube. http://www.physics.berkeley.edu/research/zettl/projects/nanoradio/radio.html

http://www.physics.berkeley.edu/research/zettl/projects/nanoradio/media/nanoradio-layla.wav has a recording made through that radio.




cadenas -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:28:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
GPS doesnt worry me, honestly I am used to the idea that I can be monitored at any time, the trick, as Scott Adams once said is to be soo boring that nobody with the power to spy on you has a good reason to :P


Actually, that sums up the exact problem with any kind of surveillance: ultimately, it's not a tool to find out where you are, but a tool to keep you from speaking up. It's great to keep a slave under control consensually.

It's horrendous when you force a whole country to be "boring". Unless you are trying to recreate the Soviet Union.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 2:29:37 AM)

The satellites that we dealt with the most were T-12 G-26 and G-18 which are all geo-synchronous, so we had effective transmitters for them...
It isnt that difficult to come up with them, though I do agree that it takes a large amount of power to operate. However in just the last few years we have made leaps and bounds in power management, and in making smaller batteries that last longer, so it isnt too difficult to see GPS becoming a more affordable and portable option supplanting many existing tracking systems.



LadyEllen -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 3:01:47 AM)

It all sounds very sinister and expensive; one might have a revolt on one's hands were one to attempt chipping people. There is more than one way to our sinister ends.

Why not instead fit number plate recognition cameras at every road junction - tell the populace its for road safety, to clamp down on those who dont pay tax or insurance or detect other crime; any old shit will do but for goodness' sake dont mention tracking people or road charging. Put another camera in which records detailed images of driver and passenger. Link all these to a larger computer with the database on it of cars we'd like to stop because theyre registered to person A, and faces we'd like to see in person that belong to persons B and C which we can detect from our new facial recognition software.

And put in place a special unit which deals with mobile communications and can track people from their mobile phone signals too - this complements our road cameras and works quite well when our target is not in a vehicle. We have to be able to do this to detect crime, find missing persons and so on - its specifically not for tracking members of the local mosque. All we have to do then is pass a new Act that forbids anonymous pay as you go phone subscriptions - something along the lines of anti money laundering regulations that require proof of ID before anyone can get a phone would do. And add to the street CCTV our facial recognition cameras and we're there.

We're not of course interested in tracking the vast majority of people. What we're interested in is detecting and tracking those who "pose a danger to security"; luckily these dangerous types flag themselves up through their attendance at various locations we have under surveillance (in real life and online), their associations with others already under surveillance and their purchases which we monitor through our financial crime unit in order to prevent funds going to terrorism.

And when we mount a dawn raid on these people, we can then put any public fears at rest very simply through press releases describing the danger they posed to national security, reassure the public of our constant vigilance for their protection and in no circumstances reveal the sources and means of our intelligence in court; not because this will compromise future operations necessarily but rather because we might have a revolt on our hands.

E



Asherdelampyr -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 3:05:41 AM)

easier to just put a gps chip in every car and phone... OnStar and systems like it already have GPS capabilities.



DomKen -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 6:11:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
When you walk past an RFID reader (depending on the type, within a few inches to several 100 feet away), the RFID tag responds and says "hey, I'm serial number XYZ".

I have done work on RFID inventory management and the longest ranged readers for standard RFID are 6 inches. No 100 foot reader.

There are longer ranged systems for stuff like tracking race starts and the like but they are bigger chips and operate on higher frequencies. Not intended for ubiquitous deployment and inappropriate for such.



thornhappy -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/3/2009 5:29:51 PM)

Whoops, DomKen beat me to it!



GravityPro -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 1:06:01 AM)

Ladies and gentlemen, with only slight topic drift I bring your attention to xkcd #538.http://Xkcd.com/538

Don't forget to hover your mouse over the image for the bonus punchline.



DesFIP -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 8:32:20 AM)

Discussed this with the auto parts people about using it to track the oldest's speed and won't work for that because it needs to be recharged regularly. Instead we taught her to use cruise control and she hasn't gotten a ticket since. Thankfully cruise control in her Jetta works as low as 20 mph.

But the charge won't last forever. These things are more designed for a kid who comes home daily so you can recharge it while they sleep.



Lorr47 -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 11:14:54 AM)

quote:

And he is wearing underwear from the lady's department".


OMG.  They even  know that now?



LaTigresse -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 11:40:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
 
Now if you wanted to turn a bunch of slaves loose in the woods to track, catch, tie and punish them, you would have a weekend retreat.


Oh count me in on that fun!!!

Reminds me of a conversation we had about a party in Oklahoma once...



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 11:51:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Discussed this with the auto parts people about using it to track the oldest's speed and won't work for that because it needs to be recharged regularly. Instead we taught her to use cruise control and she hasn't gotten a ticket since. Thankfully cruise control in her Jetta works as low as 20 mph.

But the charge won't last forever. These things are more designed for a kid who comes home daily so you can recharge it while they sleep.


Don't they make "black box" units for personal automobiles, that you can just hardwire into the car's electrical system the way you would a Cd player or remote starter? I imagine they're somewhat pricey, but I know auto rental companies have been using them for years to keep track of where the car was and how fast it was going at any given time. It doesn't download in  real time, but you can check it once a week or so and it would tell you, for example, how many times the car was operated at speeds in excess of 60 MPH, what times this took place, etc. I think insurance companies give you a break if you install them too, so that would at least help offset some of the upfront cost.



Maya2001 -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 6:37:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Discussed this with the auto parts people about using it to track the oldest's speed and won't work for that because it needs to be recharged regularly. Instead we taught her to use cruise control and she hasn't gotten a ticket since. Thankfully cruise control in her Jetta works as low as 20 mph.

But the charge won't last forever. These things are more designed for a kid who comes home daily so you can recharge it while they sleep.


That was one of the issues I found when looking at dogs collars.  .. I had a very spooky dog , which is high flight risk , she does not like confined areas which would mean trapping/catching her would be very difficult, most of the GPS collars  had a only a couple battery charge time, and I searched globally the best I could come up with was about a month ,  and know the history on escaped dogs like her a month would not likely  be sufficient time  and that is if the battery is fresh and fully charged.. so realized it was not worth the expenditute.  I then looked into the wildlife  collars which are  different type of system but the collars where running a few thousand dollars each.. so I totally gave up and decided to focus on prevention instead



popeye1250 -> RE: GPS tracking technology (3/5/2009 9:47:25 PM)

I say we take up a secret collection and get one for Aileen and plant it on her car.
Then we can keep track of her.
"Gee, Aileen's been going to Dunkin' Donuts a lot lately!"



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