RE: Why is this a hard limit?

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agirl -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 6:37:40 AM)
Is there the possibility that you could attempt this at your own pace with no pressure to perform? If it was desired for me to try this, it would be approached in a way that would give me maximum comfort and reassurance. If the end result is for me to make another girl cum; something I have no experience with, no sexual desire for girls (to date) and a reluctance, M would still want me to come away from it with something , even if it's simply a sense of achievement that I tried it. There would be no pressure for me to be good at it, or to like it or even to do it again. It wouldn't ever be attempted with someone that wasn't fully aware that they were a prop of sorts and part of a new experience that I wasn't sure of. To try to please someone else, apart from M, in a situation like this, would be far too much pressure for a first time and REAL distress is never something he'd entertain in any way. The upshot is......... if it's something HE wanted, he'd help me do it. It wouldn't be a me doing it thing , but a we doing it thing. agirl

Maya2001 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 10:23:26 AM)
quote: To me, (note meeee) if the possibility of saying no, of proclaiming a hard limit, is something you can do, then you are not a slave, but a submissive. If you are a submissive then you have that right and certainly would and should examine the situation from that perspective. You say though, you are his slave. To me, as a slave, I own nothing.... all is my Masters... including "my sexuality." It isn't for me to claim I am heterosexual, or bisexual, or anyothersexual. The is a difference between a consensual slave and an actual slave as well as the notion that a consensual slave should have absolutely no rights A consensual slave has the duty to protect the master's property for harm that could potentially destroy the relationship..that means speaking up to bring an issue up for discussion it he/she feels something will bring harm...not just to go ahead with whatever is ordered just for the sake of compliance. what good will come from obeying a task if it ends in disaster, causing her to lose trust in her master or if she is left feeling like a failure, or brings emotional harm for some other reasoning .. that is why honest communication and feedback is needed in D/s M/s relationship.. to prevent a relationship from failing

RainydayNE -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 11:41:50 AM)
maya has a really good point -- what has the M accomplished if the s ends up so freaked out she leaves? (or what... "asks to be released," however is the "slave appropriate way" of running away). i don't see anything wrong with her re-examining her limits, she didn't think to talk about it in the beginning because it wasn't even something she'd considered. now she's considering it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 12:58:23 PM)
FR i didnt read all the replies... but.. in all honesty.. what could the harm be if you already shared him with another woman? to say your a slave... then put your foot down so adamantly about something you have already partially enjoyed seemsa bit... off. maybe he asked because you enjoyed the other experience so much? personally, i would give it a try... and i do mean.. try... no promises. and explain that to him. he then cant find fault if you cant find enjoyment. but, at least you tried.

DavanKael -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 1:27:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici Many men take sex as an act, a task, a function much like tying shoes or farting--they also have this fantasy of a menages, women on women, women on them, them on women--it denotes a good fuck had by all and we all go home to life--not so for many women. Women see"intimacy" (note I did not say sex) as a private thing, with a relationship as the foundation--it denotes caring, emotion, something to be revered. Most women, if not wired to be bi, can't wrap their heads around a "sex---task"--its not like men, drop your drawers and just go to it--much like men on men who aren't oriented to men on men.( poly is a whole different ballgame as its relationship oriented, IMHO) If you weren't bi oriented to begin with--this won't work and IMHO could do some psychological/emotional damage in the long run. Look deep into YOUR wiring and if its not right, tell Him, if you lose Him, well did He really respect your hard limits? "Sex--task"...that's a really interesting conceptualization, Cat. Thank you for giving me a new angle and term to roll around. I actually think this may be a way in which I am different than some women while still preferring intimacy by far. gabrielle---- Hmmmm, I have read a lot of your posts but I don't have a distinct enough impression of your relationship or yours and your Master's conceptualization of slavery to say what I think, based on what you've said, is 'best'. If it's a hard limit and you negotiated that going in to the relationship, then that's that, unless the limit's softened up fo you and you've indicated that to him. Now, if you're going with a no-limits situation, then I suppose it's comply or leave, with the acknowledgment that you may have some level of negotiability in there. My own personal approach to things that have been ickey to me in the past related to my marriage (Not a D/s relationship, though, imo, I did serve even sans a Master) , I sucked most of them up. A sexual hard limit with my ex- was that I wouldn't have sex with a man just so my ex- could use me as commerce to have sex with that man's woman. That wasn't okay. He was displeased. I was disgusted. < shrug > I have had one sexual experience with a man who meant nothing to me (Within the context of a relationship and with the attempt on the part of my boyfriend, at least in part, of fulfilling a fantasy and it went horribly awry because my boyfriend cast aside my limits and backed his buddy, not me) and to this day, a couple of years after the circumstance, when I contemplateit more than peripherally, it makes me feel physically ill. I feel like I'm rambling here and hopefully what I've said comes out more cogent than my thoughts feel right at this moment but I guess the bottom line of what I am saying is that I don't think that love or devotion means you can't have a line in the sand. Best wishes, Davan

swan70 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 2:58:14 PM)
Being kinda new to bdsm--i understand about finding new hard limits. I have been asked things i had never even imagined before. i am bi, and do find women attractive. You mentioned that seeing 2 women together does not bother you. You are not repulsed at the idea--just not attracted to it either. you might want to mentally explore the idea some...see where it takes you. Try fantasizing and see what your body's reactions are--turned on or off? my attraction to women is different than my attraction to men. i find men with confidence a turn on. i find women with a soft smile a turn on. Different character traists produce different feelings inside of me. Don't expect your attraction to a woman to be the same as to a man. It may be more subtle. For a long time--the idea of being with a woman--ALONE--was not interesting to me. I would play with a female in a MFF 3 way--that was it. I wanted to please her as much as him, but his presence was a must. Now--that is no longer true. i find myself attracted and interested in a female only arrangement as well as group play. In the end--remember that you will be dealing with another PERSON. Not some toy or doll...

natasha66 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 4:10:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici Many men take sex as an act, a task, a function much like tying shoes or farting--they also have this fantasy of a menages, women on women, women on them, them on women--it denotes a good fuck had by all and we all go home to life--not so for many women. Women see"intimacy" (note I did not say sex) as a private thing, with a relationship as the foundation--it denotes caring, emotion, something to be revered. Most women, if not wired to be bi, can't wrap their heads around a "sex---task"--its not like men, drop your drawers and just go to it--much like men on men who aren't oriented to men on men.( poly is a whole different ballgame as its relationship oriented, IMHO) If you weren't bi oriented to begin with--this won't work and IMHO could do some psychological/emotional damage in the long run. Look deep into YOUR wiring and if its not right, tell Him, if you lose Him, well did He really respect your hard limits? Applauds this post.

cjan -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 4:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici Many men take sex as an act, a task, a function much like tying shoes or farting--they also have this fantasy of a menages, women on women, women on them, them on women--it denotes a good fuck had by all and we all go home to life--not so for many women. Women see"intimacy" (note I did not say sex) as a private thing, with a relationship as the foundation--it denotes caring, emotion, something to be revered. True dat. As Billy Crystal once opined..."a woman needs a reason to have sex, a guy just needs a place". [8D]

RainydayNE -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: natasha66 quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici Many men take sex as an act, a task, a function much like tying shoes or farting--they also have this fantasy of a menages, women on women, women on them, them on women--it denotes a good fuck had by all and we all go home to life--not so for many women. Women see"intimacy" (note I did not say sex) as a private thing, with a relationship as the foundation--it denotes caring, emotion, something to be revered. Most women, if not wired to be bi, can't wrap their heads around a "sex---task"--its not like men, drop your drawers and just go to it--much like men on men who aren't oriented to men on men.( poly is a whole different ballgame as its relationship oriented, IMHO) If you weren't bi oriented to begin with--this won't work and IMHO could do some psychological/emotional damage in the long run. Look deep into YOUR wiring and if its not right, tell Him, if you lose Him, well did He really respect your hard limits? Applauds this post. [sm=applause.gif]

DesFIP -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 5:45:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: swan70 You mentioned that seeing 2 women together does not bother you. You are not repulsed at the idea--just not attracted to it either. you might want to mentally explore the idea some...see where it takes you. Try fantasizing and see what your body's reactions are--turned on or off? Now this I don't get. Just because she doesn't run screaming into the night when seeing two lesbians together, doesn't mean she's secretly bi. There are all kinds of things in this world that don't bother me if others do them. Doesn't mean I could ever enjoy it though.

MistresseLotus -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 6:59:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: junecleaver It would be gross and uncomfortable, but it wouldn't be the first time I put myself in a gross/uncomfortable situation for a dominant partner. What exactly do you feel you would lose by doing this? The same thing you lose when a vanilla partner acquiesces to do BDSM "for you" just because they love you. Their heart and interest isn't in it. I wonder how man guys loose their women to the female partner in this scenario. [:D] (hmmmmm I wonder if these uber-doms can teach a canary to bring in the morning newspaper?) I'd rather be loved than tolerated :)

swan70 -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/5/2009 8:15:31 PM)
i didn't mean to imply that she was secretly bi DesFIP. i do think that a lot of women don't even CONSIDER it because it goes against so many cultural taboos. i was just wanting to encourage her to think it through before writing it off or pursuing it!

DesFIP -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/6/2009 3:43:06 AM)
I would think that having been one of two women pleasuring her dominant, would have shown her exactly where her lines are. Despite that, I think most people do know their secret urges even if they haven't acted upon them or spoken about them before. I really doubt very many women who are manipulated into trying a threesome come out going "Eureka! I love having sex with other women".

rabinyaZharovna -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/6/2009 3:49:47 AM)
I didn't say she shouldn't tell him about her fears. Good gravy! If I had fears or concerns that weren't shared with my Master that would be the fast track to the not pleasant kinda whippin! There is a difference though in being a submissive who can contemplate saying no and a slave who can't think of saying no... she can only say... Please help me get where you wish me to be because I desperately long to please you but am struggling with this. One is contemplating will I do this? can I do this? The other is saying I must do this, I will do this, I just need help getting there. Neither is right or wrong, just different, but it does change the place you are coming from.

WyldHrt -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 2:18:30 AM)
This isn't to you, Maya, I just grabbed the quote from your post. quote: You say though, you are his slave. To me, as a slave, I own nothing.... all is my Masters... including "my sexuality." It isn't for me to claim I am heterosexual, or bisexual, or anyothersexual. Sorry, things like this just get me. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 2 TOS violation so-called "sexualities", both illegal, that would have 99% of s-types running for the hills, no matter how "slavey" they are. I can also think of a few specific activities that would most likely have the same result. The fact is that most "no limits" slaves choose masters whose hard limits match their own, giving them the freedom to say they have "no limits" while knowing that they won't be ordered to do anything that really is a hard limit for them. My concern here is largely for those new s types who read such posts and think that "slaves" should do literally anything a "master" asks, even things that are detrimental to their mental or physical well-being. Getting back to the OP, this limit wasn't discussed or even considered (by her) at the outset, so it is a new situation. The toe example is a good one, as it is a limit few would think to discuss during the negotiation phase. My gut reaction is to support those who say that she shouldn't have to analyze why it is a limit, as some things (like sexual orientation) just are, but the OP seems to be looking to figure out why it is a limit. To that end, I will say that a couple of D-types have tried to turn me bi with the rationale that pleasure is pleasure no matter the source, and it is a no-go. In one case, I asked the D in question, "Are you hetero?" Getting a "yes" in reply, I responded, "Does the thought of a sub guy sucking your cock get you hard?" My point was made, apparently. As to the fact that the OP has, in fact, participated in a MFF situation where both females were concentrating on him, I don't really think it is relevent. I have done so as well, and it had nothing to do with girl on girl, nor did it stir any bisexual feelings. We were both playing with him, not with each other. It was hella fun, but bisexual it wasn't. Personal opinion- not only do I have less than zero desire to be with a woman sexually, I would not want to subject an innocent third party to the revulsion I would feel if I could bring myself to be with her for his "pleasure". Even if I did so in the name of obedience, I know myself well enough to know that I would hella resent being forced or manipulated into it, and that trust in my relationship and my D's judgement would be damaged. For me, the math adds up to a hard limit.

antipode -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 9:32:14 AM)
quote: One side is 'don't cross a hard limit and He has no right to ask' Hmm. Have you actually set this as a hard limit? Generally, yes, if you're a slave you do as you are told. I am not quite sure why this would be a big deal for you, I seem to read that it is. It isn't like he is announcing he is going to notch your labia. But generally, if you never set this as a limit, do as you are told. If you did, remind him. And, of course, you can both renegotiate the deal you guys have, I just don't see this as a really life changing event.

rabinyaZharovna -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 9:45:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt This isn't to you, Maya, I just grabbed the quote from your post. quote: You say though, you are his slave. To me, as a slave, I own nothing.... all is my Masters... including "my sexuality." It isn't for me to claim I am heterosexual, or bisexual, or anyothersexual. Sorry, things like this just get me. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least 2 TOS violation so-called "sexualities", both illegal, that would have 99% of s-types running for the hills, no matter how "slavey" they are. I can also think of a few specific activities that would most likely have the same result. The fact is that most "no limits" slaves choose masters whose hard limits match their own, giving them the freedom to say they have "no limits" while knowing that they won't be ordered to do anything that really is a hard limit for them. My concern here is largely for those new s types who read such posts and think that "slaves" should do literally anything a "master" asks, even things that are detrimental to their mental or physical well-being. Well duh! That would fall under.... be wise about whose collar you take. Why would anyone with... I don't know half a brain.. wear the collar of the man who wanted her to do something like that? See, while this "no limits" slave pushes your buttons, what you said pushes mine :) Here's the deal, I was smart enough to get with a man who wouldn't, for example, order me to jump off a bridge. (Yeah, that's one of my fav what if's people like to throw out.) Or order me to rob a bank, or order me to do something with someone of an illegal age. These fall under no brainers for me. So did I line myself up with someone who falls in line with "my" hard limits? Yep, cuz there is this thing called a brain I opted to use when making the last decision or choice I would ever make. And I am ususally the first person advocating know who it is you desire to belong to. Now, do I need to worry about what I would say or do if he said.... slut go rob a bank... uh no. Because I opted to make certain I got involved with a man who had these things called... morality... honor...integrity and so on. So you can take almost any argument ad absurdium and make it sound like it never applies, however for those living in the real world, enslaved to the point of thinking only.... show me the way to get to where you need me to be, this argument is irrelevant, meaningless, and ridiculouly redundantly posted by everyone who doesn't really get "enslavement." And by the way only one of the TOS things you are referring to, if I understand the reference is entirely illegal. If the second reference is beastiality, it's only illegal if you are penetrating as opposed to being penetrated... depending on where you live. And, yeah if he ordered that, I'd be on all fours.

WyldHrt -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 11:58:58 AM)
quote: So you can take almost any argument ad absurdium and make it sound like it never applies, however for those living in the real world, enslaved to the point of thinking only.... show me the way to get to where you need me to be, this argument is irrelevant, meaningless, and ridiculouly redundantly posted by everyone who doesn't really get "enslavement." It actually wasn't an argument, simply a clarification, and has nothing to do with whether or not I or anyone else "gets" enslavement. If you read the last sentence I wrote in that paragraph, you will see why said clarification usually gets made when the "no limits slave" thing comes up. Some of us will happily stop being ridiculously redundant when new folks stop posting threads asking if it is proper training for a Master to lock them in the basement for a month or more on first meeting. Common sense, as you may have noticed, often isn't. quote: And, yeah if he ordered that, I'd be on all fours. I did say 99%, now didn't I? [;)]

rabinyaZharovna -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 3:17:45 PM)
I sincerly apologize for the confusion....I was using the term "argument" with the definition: a stated position or assertion. Not as in "we are having an argument (disagreement...which we are)." My point is that for the "slave" (not sub, heavy sub, really wants to be a slave, blah, blah, blah....) limits are what the master dictates. How he moves her up to the hard spots, then through them is dependant on the skill of the Master. I'm one of the few people that really thinks that definitions mean something and are important. The constant blurring of definitions (self imposed or otherwise) is really what causes so much hate and discontent in the community. If a Master is looking for a slave, and not a really heavy sub, it would be so much easier to know that upfront. But we have blurred and distorted our terms so much, in the name of being open and accepting that we (as a community) hesitate to say...."Nope, you're wrong. You are not a slave. That collar you wear is just pretty jewelry, not the indelible mark of what you are because you continue to feel that you have rights, input, ownership or whatever." Fine, you are a sub and have limits. My impression is that the OP is trying to find the way through her hesitancy to please her Master. Perhaps he decides that it isn't worth the anguish it would cause to force her to do this, but the point is that is his decision, not hers. Unless she wants to beg release, she (if she is a slave and not a sub) can inform him of the damage it might cause, but refusing is not an option. As a slave, subjecting an innocent party is not something you are responsible for...that is his problem and responsibility. I would hope he would take that into consideration (maybe picking someone who like to see a woman humiliated) but either way, his decision. Which is why I asked the question "are you a sub, or are you a slave?" The answer makes all the difference in how I answered the question.

WyldHrt -> RE: Why is this a hard limit? (3/7/2009 10:02:27 PM)
quote: I sincerly apologize for the confusion....I was using the term "argument" with the definition: a stated position or assertion. Not as in "we are having an argument (disagreement...which we are)." Yes, I know how you were using the word. As I said, my post was a clarification: Def: 1. to make (an idea, statement, etc.) clear or intelligible; to free from ambiguity. of the term "no limits" slave, nothing more. quote: "...You are not a slave. That collar you wear is just pretty jewelry, not the indelible mark of what you are because you continue to feel that you have rights, input, ownership or whatever." Now that is fairly offensive. I don't know where you got the idea that a submissive's collar means any less to him/her and to his/her relationship than a slave's collar. While I would like to parse your entire post and respond to each point, we have already derailed this thread quite enough. If you wish to continue, please feel free to mail me on the other side. ETA: On the issue of a slave having no choice but to obey no matter the consequences to him/herself and to the relationship as a whole, please see Maya's post above. She stated my feelings on that issue very well.

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