RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess -

RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (Full Version)

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QuietlySeeking -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 10:07:45 AM)
IMHO, it's not about who's to blame, but who has the knowledge to pick up the toxic financial mess we are in and make it less toxic. Neither party is offering alternatives that are long-term focused. Time for those third-party candidates to offer some real, functional solutions....<crickets chirping>....dang.

Lorr47 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 11:07:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Just wondering why it makes any difference who did what... neither side wanted this to happen... they were both sincere in their actions and both contributed to the result. It is important where we go from here but constantly playing the blame game does no one any good. Butch Probably the most succinct statement posted in months on the issue. The problem now is to get politicians to work together. I do not have much hope for that to happen.

LaTigresse -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 11:12:10 AM)
Especially with Pelosi sticking her nose in everything.........

Lorr47 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 11:44:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Especially with Pelosi sticking her nose in everything......... When the republicans started complaining about Pelosi, I thought it was just sour apples. However, even though I am more than a little liberal, I have come to view Pelosi as more than a little antagonizing. By the same token I do not think much of the republican leadership. I guess that means I feel that there is no leadership in congress. I still like Obama though.

domiguy -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 3:41:01 PM)
Why people still attempt to defend Bush is beyond me. Let it go...Cleansing breath. The guy was a complete douche nozzle.

LaTigresse -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 3:41:43 PM)
OMG, I love that!!! douche nozzle

Truthiness -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 3:54:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 Aaaawe what's the matter? Truth hurt too much? Apparently so, seeing how desperate you seem to be to hide it.

lronitulstahp -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 6:37:24 PM)
How about the good folks...regular citizens that overextended themselves? They tried to keep up with the Joneses, and used plastic to pay for things that they never had (or would have) the paper to cover. We can't blame Clinton, Bush, or Obama for that. Greed, and a warped sense of entitlement contributed in a huge way to this problem. As much as people want to blame politicians or demand that politicians fix this mess, there comes a time when looking in the mirror and being honest about one's reflection is necessary. It's time for people to tighten their belts until it becomes uncomfortable. But instead... it seems we'd rather play the blame game.

DedicatedDom40 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 9:08:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp How about the good folks...regular citizens that overextended themselves? It was interesting that when the problem first broke, most of the blame was immediately laid at the feet of the overextended borrower who took on "too much house". As the problem has progressed and we have become more aware of the actions of others (banks, hedge funds, derivatives traders, politicians) that have far eclipsed the actions of the little guy, very little has been said about the unqualified borrower in quite a while. The irresponsible homebuyers, although irresponsible, amount to little more than a flyspeck on top of a mound of Wall St. horse shit.

TDHO -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 10:11:21 PM)
The irresponsible homebuyers were far more a flyspeck on top of a mound of Wall St horse shit. The greed of these homebuyers was the driving force behind this mess. Just because you can.... doesn't mean you should. It was possible then, as it is now, to buy a house using less than the maximum mortgage amount available to you. This situation is no different than tulip bulbs in the 1600s, Real Estate in CA, TX and MA in the 1980s and Internet stocks in the 1990s. People bought more home than they could afford because they got greedy and relied on the Bigger Fools Theory (they would find a bigger fool than them to sell the home to later). Turns out that they were the biggest fool. Now, they're looking to the government for a bailout. The best thing the government can do in this situation is to let the market deal with it. Foreclosures will happen (lots of them). Prices will fall (significantly). Then prices will reach a point where they are again in line with incomes (which is the way it's supposed to be) and people will start buying homes again. You can't abolish stupidity with legislation. Nor can you create it. Neither regulation nor deregulation caused this situation so it's fautly to blame any recent President. The blame rests sqarely with the man in the mirror for the vast majority of homebuyers who have found themselves caught up in this mess.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/5/2009 10:28:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TDHO The irresponsible homebuyers were far more a flyspeck on top of a mound of Wall St horse shit. The greed of these homebuyers was the driving force behind this mess. Just because you can.... doesn't mean you should. It was possible then, as it is now, to buy a house using less than the maximum mortgage amount available to you. This situation is no different than tulip bulbs in the 1600s, Real Estate in CA, TX and MA in the 1980s and Internet stocks in the 1990s. People bought more home than they could afford because they got greedy and relied on the Bigger Fools Theory (they would find a bigger fool than them to sell the home to later). Turns out that they were the biggest fool. Now, they're looking to the government for a bailout. The best thing the government can do in this situation is to let the market deal with it. Foreclosures will happen (lots of them). Prices will fall (significantly). Then prices will reach a point where they are again in line with incomes (which is the way it's supposed to be) and people will start buying homes again. You can't abolish stupidity with legislation. Nor can you create it. Neither regulation nor deregulation caused this situation so it's fautly to blame any recent President. The blame rests sqarely with the man in the mirror for the vast majority of homebuyers who have found themselves caught up in this mess. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=3

SilverMark -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 3:05:23 AM)
For those that wish to blame Billy Boy Clinton for the Gramm legislation.....it was a part of an omnibus spending bill totaling thousands of pages that allows for the budgetary functioning of the government. There is one now in the senate that is so full of pork that it is unbelievable and it will probably pass because a larger part of the bill is needed. Democrat and Republican alike are entirely guilty of this B.S. and until each part of a bill like this MUST be debated the crap will continue. Of course it isn't "YOUR" Congressman.....it is all those other Congressmen!....Until there is either a line item veto or a movement to stop the addendum legislative process it Will Not Change! It is how the House of Reps. in particular gets elected and then holds the seat they are elected to! Want to stop the Bullshit!vote against your Congressman!... If the American people could see past the end of their collective noses we would never need term limits we'd set them ourselves!....won't happen but, we could control it ourselves if we tried! Our own esteemed Senate idiot from Georgia has over 44 million he added....he is against pork or so he says, 4 of our congressmen have added over 100 million yet every election we send them back to D.C. to fuck us all over again....If they don't bring home the bacon they don't get elected...it is a vicious cycle and both sides of the aisle are guilty! What is worse they feel it is part of what they do for you and me!...It is their duty to bring it home for those that vote for them...we want dams, we want train museums, we want, we want we want!...Hold them all acountable....not just Pelosi but, Bohner....not just Reed but even my Hoosier brethren Luger!.....( a co-sponser of the Modernization act).....and he had me convinced he could no wrong)....we have to start somewhere!

UncleNasty -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 8:23:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark For those that wish to blame Billy Boy Clinton for the Gramm legislation.....it was a part of an omnibus spending bill totaling thousands of pages that allows for the budgetary functioning of the government. There is one now in the senate that is so full of pork that it is unbelievable and it will probably pass because a larger part of the bill is needed. Democrat and Republican alike are entirely guilty of this B.S. and until each part of a bill like this MUST be debated the crap will continue. Of course it isn't "YOUR" Congressman.....it is all those other Congressmen!....Until there is either a line item veto or a movement to stop the addendum legislative process it Will Not Change! It is how the House of Reps. in particular gets elected and then holds the seat they are elected to! Want to stop the Bullshit!vote against your Congressman!... If the American people could see past the end of their collective noses we would never need term limits we'd set them ourselves!....won't happen but, we could control it ourselves if we tried! Our own esteemed Senate idiot from Georgia has over 44 million he added....he is against pork or so he says, 4 of our congressmen have added over 100 million yet every election we send them back to D.C. to fuck us all over again....If they don't bring home the bacon they don't get elected...it is a vicious cycle and both sides of the aisle are guilty! What is worse they feel it is part of what they do for you and me!...It is their duty to bring it home for those that vote for them...we want dams, we want train museums, we want, we want we want!...Hold them all acountable....not just Pelosi but, Bohner....not just Reed but even my Hoosier brethren Luger!.....( a co-sponser of the Modernization act).....and he had me convinced he could no wrong)....we have to start somewhere! What a wonderful idea, though it seems the citizenry overall doesn't have either the requisite knowledge, or stones, to do such. Uncle Nasty PS Refreshing to see a post expressed in terms other than partisanship and bias.

DedicatedDom40 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 9:11:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TDHO The irresponsible homebuyers were far more a flyspeck on top of a mound of Wall St horse shit. The greed of these homebuyers was the driving force behind this mess. Just because you can.... doesn't mean you should. It was possible then, as it is now, to buy a house using less than the maximum mortgage amount available to you. Its one thing for homeowners to want to buy more than they can afford, but 'wanting' is a bit different than actually being qualified. Its something totally else when Wall St comes up with a grand plan that becomes the ultimate enabler of irrational homeowner behavior. And at the end of the day, all that gluttony and foolishness of the little guy still is a one trillion toxicity problem. Its not the 500 trillion toxicity problem that Wall St morphed it into. Im not defending the behavioral excess of homebuyers, but it still remains a flyspeck on a mound of horse shit.

ienigma777 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 9:12:26 AM)
Yes; deregulation; Reaganomics; the market will police itself; deregulation will stimulate more investments, more and newer opportunity; more competitiveness, prices will go down; allow more money to circulate, etc. Odd; with Bush it was the terror of Iraq, the war.....Homeland security...9- 11....the threat of Iran, and nothing else; with Clinton it was Monica; Odd....no one even cared to comment about the economy.....everything was Alright? So, what's the problem now? Iraq war is fixed? No more worry about terrorism and the war? Monica is on a diet, so that takes care of the Clinton years. Bush is out, he is held non-accountable and everything is okay? The market policed itself, didn't it?

slaveboy291 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 10:31:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 Aaaawe what's the matter? Truth hurt too much? Apparently so, seeing how desperate you seem to be to hide it. Seeing your pathetic attempt at flamming me, I would say that the truth deffinately hurts in your case. But I knew that already, it was a rhetorical question since the answer was obviously yes the truth does hurt for you and rest of the netcons.

Truthiness -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 10:49:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 Seeing your pathetic attempt at flamming me, I would say that the truth deffinately hurts in your case. But I knew that already, it was a rhetorical question since the answer was obviously yes the truth does hurt for you and rest of the netcons. a) I'm not a neocon. I refused to vote for Bush, McCain, etc because I feel their positions are about as bad. b) Seeing your pathetic attempts at flaming, I would say the truth definately hurts in your case. But I knew that already, seeing as how you ignored evidence posted in the OP that what you claim is the truth isn't actually the truth, and instead of addressing it, your first post in the thread was a simple attempt to be petty.

TDHO -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 7:44:01 PM)
The article was a good read. I can see how the uninformed might read it and think they've found the root cause of the calamity we're facing. Unfortunately, the article fails to acknowledge that multiple things were simultaneously happening in the marketplace. The proliferation of CDSs is an easy target because few people understand them. But, if you're going to argue that CDSs caused this problem then you also have to argue that the increased securitization of mortgages (through CMOs) caused the problem because without them there would have been no need for the CDSs. Or you could argue the the disintermediation in the mortgage investment marketplace resulting from the consolidation between the banking and I-banking industries caused the problem because without it there wouldn't have been the increase we saw in CMO activity. However, none of these issues would have been possible if individual homebuyers demonstrated self-discipline instead of buying homes they couldn't afford. I stand by what I said before. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. (edited for typos)

SpinnerofTales -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 8:05:32 PM)
Every time I hear about how "irresponsible" people were to live on debt and not within their means, I can't help but think of a few rarely stated facts: 1) Productivity went up every year for the past decade. People were working harder, smarter and doing a better job. 2) Real wages over that period stagnated. People were being asked to work harder, produce more and not see any benifits accrue from that work. While the higher classes speak of how it's not worth their time to work hard if they have to pay 4% higher taxes, the average working person was being told that they should not expect anything more than what their bosses could get away with giving them. 3) During this same time, the income of CEO's and upper management grew by %500 percent. The phrase "high tide raises all boats" was clearly not working. 4) During this time, credit was not only offered, it was sold like diapers, dogfood and antiperspirant. This was directly because the top credit providers learned just how much money they could make from usurus interest rates on credit cards, late fees, poor credit fees, etc. These financial institutions were making money by convincing people to take on enough credit that they were always somewhat behind. There was also the mortgage industry who was winning in both directions. What payments their customers could make were all to the good. If the payments became more than the customer could pay, they got to keep all the money they were paid as well as the house which they could, until recently, sell for more than they had loaned out against it. A lot of people made a lot of money on America going broke. And those people had interests in strongly encouraging these practices and did a very good job of it. To put this crisis off on the average person is a nice fiction, but it is the same vein of thought of saying of a victim of a confidence game, "He had it coming. You can't cheat an honest man." This doesn't mean that I dont hope that the American people get smarter. But let's stop talking about "greed" for people wanting to live the middle class life that was sold to them from birth as the measure of what an American life should be.

slaveboy291 -> RE: To those who say Bush's deregulation caused the economic mess - (3/6/2009 8:05:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Truthiness quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 Seeing your pathetic attempt at flamming me, I would say that the truth deffinately hurts in your case. But I knew that already, it was a rhetorical question since the answer was obviously yes the truth does hurt for you and rest of the netcons. a) I'm not a neocon. I refused to vote for Bush, McCain, etc because I feel their positions are about as bad. b) Seeing your pathetic attempts at flaming, I would say the truth definately hurts in your case. But I knew that already, seeing as how you ignored evidence posted in the OP that what you claim is the truth isn't actually the truth, and instead of addressing it, your first post in the thread was a simple attempt to be petty. My bad, your message came off as the same canned answer I've come to expect from the neocon drones on the net. I've learned to take any form of evidence with an extreme grain of salt. People on both sides tend to post stuff that fits their own views, and expect everybody to have a epiphomy. You can cite a million sources arguing both sides. Hence why I'm like whatever, it's the same tune I've been hearing now for the last 6yrs. Nothings changed. More of the same "Bush can do no wrong" drivel. It's equally as stupid as saying he did nothing right. Which as far as Afghanistan and response after 9/11 I'll give him his due. Just more of the same and it's like, give it a rest. People didn't like him get over it. The Republicans lost, move on.

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