RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes

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domiguy -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 3:37:21 PM)
The tax cuts were a temporary measure following 9/11...Some have already expired, some fell off Jan,1 09..The remainder will expire by 2011.

rulemylife -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 4:29:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking Yes, the rich get richer, but so do some of the middle class people...and even some of the poor people. Some of the poor move into the middle class, which eventually redefines who is poor is who is not. Some of the poor will always be poor due to circumstances within and beyond their control. The same principle applies to the middle class and the rich. In case you haven't noticed, that principle has not been working. The income gap between the richest 10% in this country and the bottom 90% has grown to a record level in the past 25 years. In the past eight years that 10% has seen their incomes steadily grow, while the incomes of the remaining 90% have barely budged. I can easily document all this for you but it has been reported so many times in the media and posted so many times on these boards, including by myself, I assumed it was common knowledge.

Raiikun -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 5:11:05 PM)
Mixed feelings. On one hand, I know of some rich people who I wouldn't have my feelings hurt at all having it stuck to them in taxes, who are pretty scummy people. On the other hand...well for instance, one friend of mine paid (I'm quoting from memory so numbers are approximate), about 1.2 million in taxes last year...and between the capital gains increases, his businesses, etc, he calculated that he might owe 1.8+ this year. So...he just moved out of the country, so now that's 1.2 million in tax revenue the country has lost altogether with the proposed increases, from that one person. And I know he's not the only one doing so.

rulemylife -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 6:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash If somone is making 1.5 million per year, why should their percentage be higher than that of say someone making $40,000 per year. The wealthy individual is going to pay a much larger total amount anyway, so why penalize them with not only a higher total amount, but a higher percentage as well, so more of each dollar they earn goes to the government. To begin, you can't look at the tax bracket to say "I made $100k so I'm paying 28%". That's not how it works. It's called a progressive tax because because each stage of your income is taxed at a progressively higher level. So, even though you maybe in the 28% bracket you actually are only paying a little over 22%. This link shows the math: Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2008 and 2009 Also, when you make the argument about earning more and paying a higher percentage are you basing that on tax rates or adjusted gross income. It's something I have never seen these articles, suggesting the rich pay a higher percentage, specify. Because if it is based strictly on the tax brackets then it is completely inaccurate for many reasons, one of which I pointed out above. The second being that payroll taxes are not payed on anything above $90k. The third being that if these articles that say the wealthy pay more are based strictly on earnings income, they don't take into account that most of the wealthy receive most income from investments taxed at the capital gains rate of less than half ordinary income in the top two brackets. Warren Buffet made these points in a link I posted the other day, saying that he paid nearly half what his receptionist paid in taxes just due to the way the tax code is set up, to favor the wealthy who write big checks to the campaigns of those who write the tax laws. NBC's Tom Brokaw Puts Spotlight on Warren Buffett's Call to "Tax the Rich!

Kirata -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 6:28:09 PM)
FYI Department of the Treasury Fact Sheet 2005 Department of the Treasury Fact Sheet 2004 The search didn't return any later releases with the keywords I was using, but these two should suffice to make the intended point. K.

kiyari -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 7:03:31 PM)
Hmmm... someone claims to have PAID 1.2 MILLION in TAXES? No wonder they left. Me? 1.2 MILLION would be a lottery win (which I don't bother to play). Ya, the well to do may MOVE AWAY from the inconvenience of our awful tax situation. Leaving we poor taxated serfs to cover their shortfalls. Happy happy joy joy, as they say (nothing is improved)

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 7:17:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster The wealthy don't pay enough in taxes relative to the benefits they derive from not only using more government services, but being able to accumulate wealth at a much fsater rate than the middle class due to unequal, regressive treatment of taxes on labor vs. Cap gains taxes. Here's a good essay on why progressive taxation is more fair: http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=125&subsecID=163&contentID=1398 They avail themselves of more government services? I don't see any wealthy people on the welfare rolls, the Medicaid rolls, at the homeless shelters, seeking taxpayer-funded abortions, etc.. So what government services are they getting...paid for with taxpayer dollars...that you cannot avail yourself of? Here ya go: http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm All kinds of things the rich use that the poor don't. I don't care if you believe it or don't. And how much money was pissed away on the rich to keep them from wetting their beds over "Communism" since 1945? The entire fucking military exists for the rich.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 7:35:53 PM)
From the same link: quote: Exercises for the Republican reader: Write a rebuttal justifying the corporate subsidy of your choice, respecting the conservative principle that the tax system cannot be used for social engineering. Write a homily, suitable for use in Sunday school, explaining why Jesus should have condemned the sheep who demeaned the poor by feeding and clothing them, and blessed the rich man for living in splendor while Lazarus suffered. Take your favorite flat tax proposal and your last 1040, and have your acountant calculate how much money it will save you. Find the names of the five or six middle-class people who will have to make up that shortfall, and write them a nice thank-you note. Compare the GNP with the rate of taxation over the last fifty years-- e.g. the boom years of the '50s with their 90% marginal tax rate-- and practice explaining that high tax rates discourage investment until you can do it with a straight face. >snort< >chortle< >guffaw< >quack<

Kirata -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 10:58:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant They avail themselves of more government services? I don't see any wealthy people on the welfare rolls, the Medicaid rolls, at the homeless shelters, seeking taxpayer-funded abortions, etc.. So what government services are they getting...paid for with taxpayer dollars...that you cannot avail yourself of? Here ya go: http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm All kinds of things the rich use that the poor don't. I don't care if you believe it or don't. Here ya go: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr151.pdf K.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/5/2009 11:46:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant They avail themselves of more government services? I don't see any wealthy people on the welfare rolls, the Medicaid rolls, at the homeless shelters, seeking taxpayer-funded abortions, etc.. So what government services are they getting...paid for with taxpayer dollars...that you cannot avail yourself of? Here ya go: http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm All kinds of things the rich use that the poor don't. I don't care if you believe it or don't. Here ya go: http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr151.pdf K. Are you trying to say that the rich don't benefit from public education? Are you trying to say that Vets didn't earn their benefits? Are you trying to say that Social Security is a direct transfer from the rich, without anything being paid into the system by the lowest 4 quintiles over their working lives? Or that they don't contribute to medicare either? Hell, the amount of direct corporate welfare exceeds spending on Families and Children, Unemployment, and Housing combined. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year2007_0.html#usgs30240 I weep for the rich. They have it so hard.

awmslave -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 2:23:17 AM)
quote: I was a flat tax supporter until about two years ago when I looked at what it would take to implement it. The tax rate that I applied was 18%, to allow for the current taxpayers to cover all of the existing tax code. The "Rich", those making more than $1,000,000 per year, would actually see a sharp DECREASE in the amount of taxes paid because even on the higher income, they are currently paying higher rates. The "middle class", those making between $65,000 and $1,000,000 per year would see 25%-50% increase in taxes. The "poor", those making less than $65,000 would actually see a 5-10% increase in taxes. Our graduated tax system may not be great or popular, but it is more effective than a flat tax proposition would be. This is narrow way of looking at things. You intend to preserve all toxic waste. Flat tax 10% and no government deficit spending would create totally different environment. Part of the government will be eliminated, there will be very different income distribution.

DarkSteven -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 6:03:07 AM)
I think I'm misunderstanding the entire premise here. This is one of the reasons that I hate the bailouts - we are already adopting a post-bailout mentality of "to whom should the government give money to next?" It strikes me as obvious that more of the lower income types are living hand to mouth and in many cases living on credit. Giving them more discretionary money will result in it being spent rapidly. The upper income types save money (yeah, not all, but a lot). So if your ONLY concern is to get money back into the economy, give it to the hoi polloi. But the conservatives' argument as I've understood it, has never been about economic activity AFTER the wealthy get the money. It's been that they will stimulate the economy IN ORDER TO GET money, BEFORE it's been received. The concept is that they have the ability to make the economy work and will do so if they get rewarded for it. The question as posed assumes that government is unavoidable, along with its care and feeding (taxes). The unasked question is, is it better to tax more heavily and get more government, or to tax less and get less? In other words, does the economy do better if government has the money or if people get to keep it? Note: Colorado has been limiting its government for years under the Tazxpayer Bill of RIghts (TABOR). The govenment has tried to gut and chip away at the law for years...

samboct -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 6:28:04 AM)
I agree with Vanessa- and by the way- a strong middle class means that we'll all be making more money. "The top 10% pay 70% of the personal income taxes collected in this nation while only earning approximately 46.44% of the nation's AGI (2005 figures). For those that won't look at the link, that is people making about $103,000 a year. The top 25% pays 86% of the taxes....with an income of $62, 068 per year or above. http://www.taxfoundation.org/press/show/22652.html The "rich" are paying the lion's share of taxes..." Nonsense. All you have to do is an accurate calculation of taxes and fees as a percentage of your income. Income tax is the biggest tax bite for people making over $100k- but in terms of percentages for people making say $50K? Start with social security/medicaid/medicare taxes- over 16%. And it's regressive- meaning that it's capped at $16,000 or so. Make over $100k and it doesn't go up. Spare me the BS that it's not taxes. How about sales taxes? If you make less than $100k, I'll bet a bigger chunk of your money pays these taxes. What about tolls, gas taxes, liquor taxes, cigarette taxes, registration fees, drivers licenses etc. Then you can start adding in the "pseudo taxes" things like car insurance which are state mandated and in practice are necessary to operate a business. Speeding tickets- another source of revenue that's kind of deep dark hole. When I was a wage slave making $65k/yr- I ran the numbers in terms of what I paid in taxes- and hit over 40% (including state and local taxes). Add in the pseudo taxes including health insurance and it's over 50%. Yes, the people making over $100k have to pay all this stuff as well- but its a smaller percentage of their income. I'm always infuriated by this ridiculous argument that we should be grateful to the rich because they pay more than the rest of us in taxes. Well, in terms of percentages- they don't. That's why they've gotten richer over the last 5 decades- and really accelerated during the Bush years. The rich DON'T pay their fair share.... Sam

CreativeDominant -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 7:31:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire The rich also take their business outside the market whch allowed them to amass their wealth in the first place. So, all the jobs go overseas... consumerisim back home stagnates... people lose jobs... people with home mortgages... the housing loans default, the bubble collapses...and the house of cards topples.... Oh, yes. Let's all blame the lowly home owner. The greed of the rich created this economic collapse, and they should help pay to get us all the hell out of it. B.S. There were many factors that helped to fuel this decline. Those Americans who saw nothing wrong with having something they wanted now and since they could not afford to pay cash for it, put it on credit. Yes, credit card companies made it easy, there is no denying that...but consumers made it profitable for credit card companies by taking cards they should have had the sense to know they could not afford when the bills came due, by not paying their bills on time, by the all-too prevalent thought among many in this country that they "deserve" something that they have not earned. Those politicos who believed that it is the American way to own a home and so did their part to force lending companies to "ease" their oversight on loan applications. Yes, it became profitable for those who trade in "home paper" but once again, consumers helped it along by applying for loans they knew they could not afford, by not taking the time to learn what the hell A.R.M.s were, by listening to those who told they "every American deserves to have a home" and forgetting that whether that is a right or a wrong sentiment, someone has to PAY for that home and it is not the job of the rest of us to bail your ass out when you default, despite what that woman in Florida complained about to President Obama. Those rich folks actually make up a small percentage of the population and despite the popular belief that if you are rich, you now owe those of us who are not, they do now owe me or you or anyone else anything gratis. Yes, there are tax cheats...prosecute them once you have proven that they cheated. As for American companies going overseas...they've done so for many reasons...the high cost of American labor, the high rate of taxation on corporations that operate solely in-country, the burden and cost of complying with regulations, many of which are nannyist, etc..

CreativeDominant -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 7:41:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster The wealthy don't pay enough in taxes relative to the benefits they derive from not only using more government services, but being able to accumulate wealth at a much fsater rate than the middle class due to unequal, regressive treatment of taxes on labor vs. Cap gains taxes. Here's a good essay on why progressive taxation is more fair: http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=125&subsecID=163&contentID=1398 They avail themselves of more government services? I don't see any wealthy people on the welfare rolls, the Medicaid rolls, at the homeless shelters, seeking taxpayer-funded abortions, etc.. So what government services are they getting...paid for with taxpayer dollars...that you cannot avail yourself of? Here ya go: http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm All kinds of things the rich use that the poor don't. I don't care if you believe it or don't. And how much money was pissed away on the rich to keep them from wetting their beds over "Communism" since 1945? The entire fucking military exists for the rich. You know, hippie...your arguments might come across more persuasively if you used something other than a liberal blog which seems to delight not only in bashing conservative principles but capitalism itself along with anything else that fits in more along American values. Your beliefs are clearly indicated by your laughter over the short piece further down knocking conservatives by twisting their beliefs. The military clearly serves to enrich the already-rich? No, its purpose is to save folks like you who wouldn't pick up a gun to defend the country that you are content to live in while bashing those who made it possible for you to enjoy it.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 7:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire The rich also take their business outside the market whch allowed them to amass their wealth in the first place. So, all the jobs go overseas... consumerisim back home stagnates... people lose jobs... people with home mortgages... the housing loans default, the bubble collapses...and the house of cards topples.... Oh, yes. Let's all blame the lowly home owner. The greed of the rich created this economic collapse, and they should help pay to get us all the hell out of it. B.S. There were many factors that helped to fuel this decline. Those Americans who saw nothing wrong with having something they wanted now and since they could not afford to pay cash for it, put it on credit. Yes, credit card companies made it easy, there is no denying that...but consumers made it profitable for credit card companies by taking cards they should have had the sense to know they could not afford when the bills came due, by not paying their bills on time, by the all-too prevalent thought among many in this country that they "deserve" something that they have not earned. Those politicos who believed that it is the American way to own a home and so did their part to force lending companies to "ease" their oversight on loan applications. Yes, it became profitable for those who trade in "home paper" but once again, consumers helped it along by applying for loans they knew they could not afford, by not taking the time to learn what the hell A.R.M.s were, by listening to those who told they "every American deserves to have a home" and forgetting that whether that is a right or a wrong sentiment, someone has to PAY for that home and it is not the job of the rest of us to bail your ass out when you default, despite what that woman in Florida complained about to President Obama. Those rich folks actually make up a small percentage of the population and despite the popular belief that if you are rich, you now owe those of us who are not, they do now owe me or you or anyone else anything gratis. Yes, there are tax cheats...prosecute them once you have proven that they cheated. As for American companies going overseas...they've done so for many reasons...the high cost of American labor, the high rate of taxation on corporations that operate solely in-country, the burden and cost of complying with regulations, many of which are nannyist, etc.. This is funny. It's all been debunked so many times, even here on CM, that it's not funny. But it is. Pathetic, but funny.

rulemylife -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 7:55:12 AM)
I wanted to clarify an earlier post I made (#24). What I meant to say about Buffet was he said he paid a lesser percentage of tax than his receptionist, not overall tax. I also want to clarify I was talking about the Social Security portion when referring to payroll tax and I used an old figure off the top of my head. The taxable limit for 2008 is $102k.

ganarea2 -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 8:01:50 AM)
Personally I'd like to just let the whole thing tank, then pick up the pieces afterwards.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 8:03:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster The wealthy don't pay enough in taxes relative to the benefits they derive from not only using more government services, but being able to accumulate wealth at a much fsater rate than the middle class due to unequal, regressive treatment of taxes on labor vs. Cap gains taxes. Here's a good essay on why progressive taxation is more fair: http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=125&subsecID=163&contentID=1398 They avail themselves of more government services? I don't see any wealthy people on the welfare rolls, the Medicaid rolls, at the homeless shelters, seeking taxpayer-funded abortions, etc.. So what government services are they getting...paid for with taxpayer dollars...that you cannot avail yourself of? Here ya go: http://www.zompist.com/richtax.htm All kinds of things the rich use that the poor don't. I don't care if you believe it or don't. And how much money was pissed away on the rich to keep them from wetting their beds over "Communism" since 1945? The entire fucking military exists for the rich. You know, hippie...your arguments might come across more persuasively if you used something other than a liberal blog which seems to delight not only in bashing conservative principles but capitalism itself along with anything else that fits in more along American values. Your beliefs are clearly indicated by your laughter over the short piece further down knocking conservatives by twisting their beliefs. The military clearly serves to enrich the already-rich? No, its purpose is to save folks like you who wouldn't pick up a gun to defend the country that you are content to live in while bashing those who made it possible for you to enjoy it. I have my DD214. How about you? Or are you like Rush? If memory serves, he got out of serving because he had a boil on his ass. Or Darth Cheney? "I had better things to do, bitches."

rulemylife -> RE: The wealthy pay too much in taxes (3/6/2009 8:36:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking Okay, since the rich "horde" their money, why is average price of a home jumped substantially over the last decade... The housing bubble?

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