Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (Full Version)

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KaineD -> Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 11:14:36 AM)

This review contains spoilers.

In a way, the fact that Alan Moore opposes this movie fits perfectly with what the film was trying to achieve.  Not just the fact that the creator of the original work opposes this film, but why he opposes it - he flat out doesn't like the idea of adaptations.
Questions are therefore posed - what is the point of adaptations?  Is this film a succesful adaptation?  Is Watchmen the book indeed unfilmable?

Moore once said he wrote the book with the purpose in mind that it could not be filmed.

He succeeded.
But Snyder succeeded in making a succesful adaptation, in my opinion.  If that makes any sense.

See, if Moore's Watchmen is unfilmable, then so is 90% of books.

That's why it drives me nuts that fanboys get so pedantic and nitpicky that if a single line of dialogue from the book is missing, they get bent all out of shape.  They're missing the point.

Each entertainment medium has advantages and disadvantages.  Moore took advantage of just about every tool that makes comic books unique.  And with his book-within-a-book sections, he was able to add fountains of backstory and information to his world that a film couldn't hope to copy without being ridiculously long.  But pick up a Stephen King book, and you might find incredible detail to a sewage system, or the town history, or entire pages devoted to details of a side character.  It's just what books are good at - books can take their time to flesh out depth and details.

So if anyone was expecting or hoping for a Watchmen film that went into Hollis Masons days in an auto repair shop, or the possibility of the Hood's secret identity being that of a russian wrestler, then they are an idiot.  Does the fact that Snyder's Watchmen excludes these details make the film a failed adaptation?  No.

I'm not sure if Snyder did this or not, but I'm sure there is a good chance that he did, I'm sure he asked himself "what are the limitations of film?  What can a film NOT do that the book can?"  If Snyder's film TRIED to do what a film just CAN'T, then he would have failed miserably.

Everything we need to know about the Minutemen is summed up in about 3 minutes in the film, all visually, without a word of dialogue. 

Other details are revealed in small pieces of dialogue later in the film, or through Silk Spectre's rape scene.

It's amazing then, that for so long people thought that Watchmen just couldn't be done on screen, when now it's been done so effectively.  The reason is that people think in order for Watchmen to be brought to film succesfully, not a single panel should be cut out or a single line changed.

They're wrong.

Part of Snyder's job was to edit the book.  And while I realize he will be releasing a longer version of the film to DVD, I really have little issue with what was missing from the theatrical edition.  It stands very strongly by itself.  Things that were cut out, like Hollis Mason's death I did not miss.  I thought I would, but I didn't.  Snyder "gets" Watchmen.
In a sense, he even recognises the books weak points.  And the book does have them.  If anything, I'm concerned the longer version of the film may be weaker for trying to fit so much in.

I thought I would cringe at the slow motion scenes.  I didn't.  They fitted the film, the tone of the scenes, very well.  The camera work at times was masterfull.  The slow motion allowed the camera to pinpoint little details, and then move on.

Jackie Earle Haley knocked Rorscach out of the park.  He owned that role. He was excellent.

Dr. Manhattan's scenes on Mars, and his origin scene, awesome.

I was with the film loving it up till about the last 20 minutes, which I have mixed feelings about, but I think its still strong.
And here I do perhaps get pedantic between the comic book and the adaptation.

Simply, I think the feeling that they were already too late to stop Adrian was stronger in the book.  Those silent panels of all those dead bodies piled up ontop of each other with all of the blood were powerful images.  And while I understand why they couldn't do that for the film, sensitivities about a post-911 world, I think that's all the more reason why they should have shown all those bodies and blood.  The message is a lot stronger than simply destroyed buildings.  I don't feel emotional connections to that, but I do to seeing dead bodies.  It's human nature.

Squid be damned.  I don't care about that.  I just think they should have shown the dead bodies strewn all over the place.

This does seem nitpicky, but why did they have Laurey say Dr. Manhattan's line?  "Nothing ever ends".  I just don't understand why they kept the line in, but had the words come out of a different character?  It's so much more poignant coming from Dr. Manhattan.  You get the sense that he knows something that we don't.  Something about the very nature of our existence.

I thought it was campy and somewhat over the top by having Night Owl witness Rorscach's death, and then react by screaming and charging at Veidt.  I think it says more about Rorscach, and how lonely Rorscach's existence was, to have the others not even notice he's not there.  In a way, he was the only real hero.

Good film.  Shows that adaptations have a purpose and are worth it.  Moore should watch it with an open mind sometime, but whether he enjoys it or not is irrelevant.

The film has a lot of depth.  And audience members unfamiliar with the book, I suspect would enjoy the film the more they watch it.  Like the book, there would be things they did not pick up on or notice the first time around.  There are a bunch of visual signifiers.  Good stuff.

[Mod Note:  spoiler warning added to subject]





SteelofUtah -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 12:25:23 PM)

Kaine,

Thank you for this, I think you should mail this to the New Papers here in the states because I am sick of the Whiney BS the Movie Critics are putting into this Movie, Either they Don't care about the Book and question sthe Movies Substance, or they ONLY care about the book and complain about the Movies Lack of Consistency with the book.

I have read the book and still wanted to see the movie only because I want to see a Book come alive, It is the same reason I watched X-Men and Iron Man which were WAY OFF from the Comic Books I remember but none the less they make something I had to Imagine and follow along with panel by panel into something that litterally came to life.

I think anyone who sees the movie should realize they are watching an Interpretation of a conceptual project.

I like that you mentioned Stephen King.... I HATE Stephen King, I hate that he spends three pages describing the origin of a thought that take 2 seconds in real time. I LOVE the Dark Tower Series and would LOVE to see it be made into a Movie but realize that if they did that they would have to do Gunslinger which is the worst of the series and is also the First Book.

If they ever do I will watch it gladly but not expect it to touch me like the books did I just want to see how someone makes what I saw in my head REAL.

Know what I mean?

Steel




DomKen -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 2:20:42 PM)

Changing the ending sux period.

No pirate comic in a comic stuff is a plus although rumor has it that marooned is filmed for the DVD.

Watchmen the comic was Alan Moore and his team trying to produce the ultimate in story telling in the comic medium. IMO he failed miserably. Understand I liked the series but as some pinnacle of art? Look to Sandman for that not Watchmen. Is teh story unfilmable? Of course it is. No movie audience or production house would tolerate a movie where nothing much makes any sense or actually happens in the middle third of the film. Could a high quality adaptation be filmed? Clearly yes.

But in the final analysis I wanted the fake giant space squid.




Vendaval -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 3:16:10 PM)

OK, I scanned through this enough to know that seeing Watchmen on the big screen is still a go.  Back to your regularly scheduled movie critique.  [:D]




MissSepphora1 -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 3:37:28 PM)

Going to the 9:45 showing tonight...
Finally a subject where we can all play nice???




sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 6:35:55 PM)

see it on IMAX if you can - it's way better than on the regular screen






DavanKael -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/6/2009 6:38:38 PM)

I saw a 12:01am showing this morning and "Watchmen" was BRILLIANT!!!  See it, it is soooooooooooo worth it!!!  Best comic book movie since 'The Crow" and, I know this steps close to blasphemy, perhaps better.  Two very different movies but, again, see "Watchmen" it's freakin' fabulous!!!  :> 
  Davan




KaineD -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 3:00:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Kaine,

Thank you for this, I think you should mail this to the New Papers here in the states because I am sick of the Whiney BS the Movie Critics are putting into this Movie, Either they Don't care about the Book and question sthe Movies Substance, or they ONLY care about the book and complain about the Movies Lack of Consistency with the book.

I have read the book and still wanted to see the movie only because I want to see a Book come alive, It is the same reason I watched X-Men and Iron Man which were WAY OFF from the Comic Books I remember but none the less they make something I had to Imagine and follow along with panel by panel into something that litterally came to life.

I think anyone who sees the movie should realize they are watching an Interpretation of a conceptual project.

I like that you mentioned Stephen King.... I HATE Stephen King, I hate that he spends three pages describing the origin of a thought that take 2 seconds in real time. I LOVE the Dark Tower Series and would LOVE to see it be made into a Movie but realize that if they did that they would have to do Gunslinger which is the worst of the series and is also the First Book.

If they ever do I will watch it gladly but not expect it to touch me like the books did I just want to see how someone makes what I saw in my head REAL.

Know what I mean?

Steel


You know, I really dislike most critics.  I'm not just saying that because of negative reviews of Watchmen.  I've thought for a long time that most critics just don't know how to review a film, and they don't know a good film when they see one.

Critics can be incredibly stuck up their own ass, and they will slam a film for petty reasons.  Like the blue penis, for one thing.

This is a great movie, in my view.

I haven't read any of Stephen King's Dark Tower series, definately have to pick those books up sometime.




slaveluci -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 6:00:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
You know, I really dislike most critics.

I agree.  I mean, in a way, we are all critics.  But someone whose sole job is just to look at other people's work, clothes, etc. and criticize (negatively, especially)  - that is just too pathetic.  Hey, you don't like that book, that movie, that dress - shut up and do better.  If you don't like it, fine.  Who cares?  Others do and their opinion is every bit as valid as yours.  I have always loved this quote by Teddy Roosevelt and I think it's very fitting:
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

"Citizenship in a Republic"




sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 6:04:38 AM)

i saw Watchmen during a critics' screening and usually i sit as far as i can away from them. there's a couple that know of me (i review local bands) however they enjoy reading my reviews because i don't write like a critic but as a fan (in 3rd person).

i could tell some were expecting less graphic novel similarities and more comic book style (ie Batman, Spiderman, X-Men) in the movie. one critic even yawned aloud during the middle of movie.




Vendaval -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 8:06:26 AM)

Yeah, that sounds like a professional critic.  lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: sambamanslilgirl
one critic even yawned aloud during the middle of movie.




VioletGray -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 8:24:14 AM)

I LOVED the Watchmen.  And I agree with most of what's been said already, great performances by everyone, don't know why Dr. Manhattan's line was given to Silk Spectre, but I think that of all the stuff left on the cutting room floor, the whole squid thingie and the ship comic were the obvious choices.  Great fight scenes, and they got in all of the best lines of all the characters.

And concerning movie critics I have to agree with KaineD and here's why:

To a chemist a Twinkie is a collection of chemicals, compounds, and dyes. To the rest of us a twinkie is just a twinkie, we eat it, enjoy it, and that's it.  Movie critics tend to be like scientists, films are just a collection of character archetypes, plot devices, and metaphors, and I think that from having to break down movies to their basic elements all the time critics often lose the overall ability to simply enjoy a movie for its own sake.  They feel the need to take an intellectual approach, and not concentrate on how the movie made them FEEL.




sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 8:30:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Yeah, that sounds like a professional critic.  lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: sambamanslilgirl
one critic even yawned aloud during the middle of movie.


i read his review yesterday - he said the movie was long and boring




Roselaure -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 7:19:51 PM)

Let me start out by saying that Watchmen is not the sort of movie I usually see.  I don't like comic books, superheroes or graphic novels.  I went to see this movie because my Dom loves the novel and is seeing the movie and I wanted to be able to discuss it with him to please him.

That said, I really liked it.  Visually, it was brilliant, and I did not find it over long. I loved the whole alternate universe feel to it and would see it again.  I was also kind of enamored of Doctor Manhattan's anatomical correctness, but of course, I'm a slut[:D]




Vendaval -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 7:30:38 PM)

Yay for anatomically correct super-heroes!  [sm=champ.gif]




SpinnerofTales -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 9:49:21 PM)

Actually, speaking as a male, I kind of wanted to ask, if Dr, Manhattan could create anything out of thin air, couldn't he create a pair of shorts, a thong, anything? I was just glad the movie wasn't in 3d.




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 10:32:35 PM)

So is the general consensus go see this then? I read the critic reviews for a chuckle, but also it seems the more they hate a movie the more I will like it and vice versa. So if its good, I will go see it after going to the dentist monday. 




Vendaval -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/7/2009 11:18:47 PM)

Maybe a loin cloth or a pair of Speedos?  [8D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
Actually, speaking as a male, I kind of wanted to ask, if Dr, Manhattan could create anything out of thin air, couldn't he create a pair of shorts, a thong, anything? I was just glad the movie wasn't in 3d.




KaineD -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/8/2009 5:22:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I LOVED the Watchmen.  And I agree with most of what's been said already, great performances by everyone, don't know why Dr. Manhattan's line was given to Silk Spectre, but I think that of all the stuff left on the cutting room floor, the whole squid thingie and the ship comic were the obvious choices.  Great fight scenes, and they got in all of the best lines of all the characters.

And concerning movie critics I have to agree with KaineD and here's why:

To a chemist a Twinkie is a collection of chemicals, compounds, and dyes. To the rest of us a twinkie is just a twinkie, we eat it, enjoy it, and that's it.  Movie critics tend to be like scientists, films are just a collection of character archetypes, plot devices, and metaphors, and I think that from having to break down movies to their basic elements all the time critics often lose the overall ability to simply enjoy a movie for its own sake.  They feel the need to take an intellectual approach, and not concentrate on how the movie made them FEEL.


Actually, if anything, my problem with a lot of critics is they don't analyse deeply enough.  Like sambamanslilgirl saying a critic said the movie was long and boring.  It seems like a lot of critics aren't even really film fans, and have just sort of fallen into the job of being film critics, and they'd really just prefer to watch blockbuster movies that don't challange them or make them think.  Watchmen is a long film, but it never really becomes boring - there is so much going on on the screen, and if people are getting bored by it it shows what short attention spans they have.

A lot of great films are long movies.  And a lot of those are a lot more slow moving than Watchmen.




Roselaure -> RE: Watchmen (2009) - Contains Spoilers (3/8/2009 8:00:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Actually, speaking as a male, I kind of wanted to ask, if Dr, Manhattan could create anything out of thin air, couldn't he create a pair of shorts, a thong, anything? I was just glad the movie wasn't in 3d.


3-D?  Ahhh now there's an idea!!

I read lots of movie reviews, and don't let them sway whether I see a film or not except when I'm on the fence.  Roger Ebert gave Watchmen 4 stars.  He always seems to judge a movie on its own merits.




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