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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 8:17:14 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

...and of course, as we all know, this is NOT just a way for republicans to bust the unions, right? And to cut loose the thousands of retired American workers who gave this company the best years of their lives, with the understanding that they would be taken care of in their old age... because, of course, THOSE will be the people who get screwed by this Chapter 11 reorganization.

Just sayin'...

They came to work with an entitlement mentality, and built crap. Fuck 'em.

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Post #: 21

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 8:49:34 PM

corysub

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I saw the news item about GM being within week of possibly declaring Chapter 11. I think that is exactly what should have been done "before" the taxpayers put up all that money. Doesn't mean they are going to close the doors, but it will give them an opportunity to reneogtiate contracts, particularly union contracts that have put U.S. auto manufacturers at a competitive disadvantage. The fact is that GM over the years also did not provide what consumers wanted in terms of value for the investment and had a terrible dealer repair system. I've been buying foreign cars for twenty years after serveral misadventures in a row with new GM cars.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 22

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 9:35:30 PM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

They came to work with an entitlement mentality, and built crap. Fuck 'em.

I'm so glad you took an opportunity to speak to those line workers who worked that line for 25 years on "entitlement" ...yeah they weren't working those years killing their body for just anything...they were there to talk about how entitled they are...yep those lines workers are completely responsible for the design of each model of vehicle and every single thing that ever went wrong.

I'd really like a copy of that interview you did on those "entitled" employees.

Meanwhile in the real world we live today...fuckers who build companies designed to fuck each and everyone of us financially should definitely get a bonus on our backs. Yeah that's the American Way!

from,
sick-and-tired-of-this-shit boi

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Post #: 23

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 10:47:12 PM

TheHeretic

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'Fraid I don't have any links for my discussions with former auto-workers, Jen. I can refer you to an excellent book called Rivethead by a gentleman named Ben Hamper. He appeared in Michael Moore's movie about GM, as well.

Also, I seriously doubt it was anyone in the engineering department that decided to send cars to market with only one bolt holding the engine to the bell housing, with the other holes not even tapped.

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Post #: 24

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/8/2009 10:54:13 PM

MasterShake69

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hmmm maybe you should blame Obama ;)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/11/america/11auto.php

Obama asks Bush to provide help for automakers

By Jackie Calmes Published: November 11, 2008

WASHINGTON: The struggling auto industry was thrust into the middle of a political standoff between the White House and Democrats on Monday as President-elect Barack Obama urged President George W. Bush to support immediate emergency aid.

...Separate from his differences with Bush, Obama has signaled to the automakers and the unions that his support for short-term aid now, and long-term assistance once he takes office, is contingent on their willingness to agree to transform their industry to make cleaner, more energy-efficient vehicles.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html?_r=1Bush Aids Detroit, but Hard Choices Wait for Obama
By DAVID E. SANGER, DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and BILL VLASIC Published: December 19, 2008 This article is by David E. Sanger, David M. Herszenhorn and Bill Vlasic.

WASHINGTON — The emergency bailout of General Motors and Chrysler announced by President Bush on Friday gives the companies a few months to get their businesses in order, but hands off to President-elect Barack Obama the difficult political task of ruling on their future.The plan pumps $13.4 billion by mid-January into the companies from the fund that Congress authorized to rescue the financial industry. But the two companies have until March 31 to produce a plan for long-term profitability, including concessions from unions, creditors, suppliers and dealers.In February, another $4 billion will be available for G.M. if the rest of the $700 billion bailout package has been released.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

So, the auditors going over GM's books have concluded that the company probably will not be able to avoid bankrupcty.

Is there some reason the Federal government's auditors were unable to reach the same conclusion before we gave them all that money?

This is exactly what pisses me off. Why give a company that belongs in the scrap heap any type of leash? It sucks. Let them file and reorganize. I haven't researched it, do the pensioners have any type of a gov't guarantee? That would really suck and unfortunately might require more federal dollars.

It is difficult for many to watch an infomercial begging for your dollars to aid lil' Kabboosh, the Nigerian child, who is covered in flies and dying. Can you imagine the commercial where Jim and Betty Carpenter of Schaumburg, Il., two elderly blue hairs, whom are covered in flies and eating Alpo as the voice over begs for you to make a small contribution to aid the retired autoworkers of America.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 25

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 12:25:05 AM

TheUtopian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

I am not so sure we haven't become somewhat immune to the troubles of GM....at one time I would have and did say that we couldn't allow for their demise....I am not so sure that a good case can be made to save them as is.

I just heard a fairly good metaphor on the radio that sizes-up this current economic crisis :

The US economy right now is a victim that's being/been attacked by Count Dracula---the vampire. Count Dracula has sunk his fangs into the jugular vein of the victim--the US economy--and is sucking the blood out as fast as he can...

Now... Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Obama and Geitner all come along and see the victim.....and say '' OMG!! an emergency!! We have to immediately administer a transfusion ; there's a danger the victim is going to die!!!

But, they don't do the obvious thing : The obvious thing being that they immediately pull Count Dracula off the victim, shove a wooden stake through his heart, and finish him off by exposing him to the sunlight! At least that's what a normal hero would do....

But they don't do that or behave like a normal hero. Instead.....they say '' We're going to administer a transfusion.....To Count Dracula!!! '' We're going administer a transfusion to Count Dracula and saturate him with new blood so he can resume sucking the blood out of the juglar vein of the victim!

So in essence....This group, Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Obama and Geitner, is going to re-inflate the US economy by pumping a whole bunch a brand new blood back into Count Dracula....

- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 3/9/2009 12:28:40 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 1:16:44 AM

VanessaChaland

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Well stated.

What surprises me is that anyone would assume that the same greedy ignorant assholes that created this problem, the CEOs (and those of AIG, mortgage companies, banks, congress, Wall Street, etc) are the ones that are going to fix it.

We keep shoveling money in dump trucks to the very people that fucked everything up in the first place. And congress is going to fix it? I would laugh but its too sad. They are mostly rich people who own serious amounts of stocks and have investments/ties in the very companies that they refused to have oversight on (when profits where high) and that they gave endless tax breaks too for decades. They all know how to work the system to make huge profits (congress and CEOs). They all talk a good line of Bush-Shit (new word for what was previously known as Bull-Shit), are charasmatic, smooth and most of them have zero conscientious scruples. Sucks, sucks, sucks.

I have always paid all my bills, lived within my means and done things the right way. Now it seems like everyone is getting some type of government bailout, except me. Sucks, sucks, sucks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

I just heard a fairly good metaphor on the radio that sizes-up this current economic crisis :

The US economy right now is a victim that's being/been attacked by Count Dracula---the vampire. Count Dracula has sunk his fangs into the jugular vein of the victim--the US economy--and is sucking the blood out as fast as he can...

Now... Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Obama and Geitner all come along and see the victim.....and say '' OMG!! an emergency!! We have to immediately administer a transfusion ; there's a danger the victim is going to die!!!

But, they don't do the obvious thing : The obvious thing being that they immediately pull Count Dracula off the victim, shove a wooden stake through his heart, and finish him off by exposing him to the sunlight! At least that's what a normal hero would do....

But they don't do that or behave like a normal hero. Instead.....they say '' We're going to administer a transfusion.....To Count Dracula!!! '' We're going administer a transfusion to Count Dracula and saturate him with new blood so he can resume sucking the blood out of the juglar vein of the victim!

So in essence....This group, Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Obama and Geitner, is going to re-inflate the US economy by pumping a whole bunch a brand new blood back into Count Dracula....

- R

< Message edited by VanessaChaland -- 3/9/2009 1:17:17 AM >

(in reply to TheUtopian)

Post #: 27

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 6:13:59 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

'Fraid I don't have any links for my discussions with former auto-workers, Jen. I can refer you to an excellent book called Rivethead by a gentleman named Ben Hamper. He appeared in Michael Moore's movie about GM, as well.

Also, I seriously doubt it was anyone in the engineering department that decided to send cars to market with only one bolt holding the engine to the bell housing, with the other holes not even tapped.

Pardon me if I don't believe every word written by a drunk. On his own admission, Hamper was a vivid drunk even on the line. I don't consider him typical of a line worker...

BTW I have spoken with line workers who went to work not on entitlement but on agreement of what they were told they would get for doing the work. That's not entitlement.

You judge a product by one man's account who can't even say he was sober the entire time. Yep that's dependable.

boi

PS I'd also REALLY like to know the last time you lived in Flint or Detroit or Pontiac even...and I don't mean the suburbs (even though Pontiac is pushing a suburb) I mean actually in these cities.

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/9/2009 6:18:14 AM >

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 6:31:42 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

...and of course, as we all know, this is NOT just a way for republicans to bust the unions, right? And to cut loose the thousands of retired American workers who gave this company the best years of their lives, with the understanding that they would be taken care of in their old age... because, of course, THOSE will be the people who get screwed by this Chapter 11 reorganization.

Just sayin'...

They came to work with an entitlement mentality, and built crap. Fuck 'em.

Just like you and everbody else...correct ? It is in fact corporate management and those great captains of sloth on wall street and the capitalist in general that has most exemplified the culture of 'entitlement' in this country.

From the millions in bonuses (while losing investors money) golden parachutes when taken over or bonuses to be 'retained' during bailouts or bankruptcies. Remaining management is actually now re-writing stock options for the chosen few to get them 'above water' again. Talk about a sense of 'entitlement.'

What a deal...capitalism in the corporate office is heads I win...tails YOU lose.

The workers didn't engineer the product line...they built what they were told. The workers didn't borrow billions and continually issue any number of different classes of stock further reducing something called corporate democracy while the market watched as this same management soak the investor of this 'investment' capital.

Watch, after 20-30 years, the workers will be left with absolutely nothing...no retirement, no healthcare by bankruptcy judges because the court has always been empowered to 'cram down' (remove) these financial obligations...in business bankrupcies...NOT home mortgages by comparison.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 29

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 6:32:46 AM

BoiJen

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I'd like to note that the banking industry has received over $1 trillion in bailout money. The banking industry that's designed to be able to balance their books or close their doors. The same banking industry that doesn't actually give you a product only a "service" at a "nominal" fee.

The auto industry has received rough $13 billion. They create a product and provide a service. And honestly if some of didn't treat your vehicles like shit, then they might stick around a bit longer. I'm going on year 9 of a GMC Jimmy with only maintenance work needed to be done plus a fuel pump (that lasted two years past it's original estimated dead date). Also, almost at half again as many miles on the tensioner as originally designed for and still going strong.

Gotta say GM hasn't fucked me once here. Where as I couldn't begin to count how many times I've had to call different banks I've worked with to get things fixed.

boi

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 7:06:00 AM

TheHeretic

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Thanks for mentioning that the cars were built by drunks, Jen. How could I forget to bring that up? Of course, an attitude that it is perfectly ok to get blasted before you clock in goes right along with the entitlement mentality.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 31

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 7:12:55 AM

BoiJen

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Heretic, how is it "entitlement " when all anyone of those line workers are asking for is what they were promised?

And I'll quote myself to fix your problem with putting words into my mouth...

"Pardon me if I don't believe every word written by a drunk. On his own admission, Hamper was a vivid drunk even on the line. I don't consider him typical of a line worker..."

No where in there does it say

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

the cars were built by drunks

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/9/2009 7:14:33 AM >

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RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 7:14:24 AM

FullfigRIMAAM1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
Another reason that throwing Money at problems DOES NOT WORK.
Steel

Of course throwing money at problems work... If only temporarily. My position though, is that American manufacturing should be guided and saved. And frankly, I would rather throw money to keep american manufacturing and jobs, than throwing endless money at AIG which does nothing other than suck money down a black hole apparently. M

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Post #: 33

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 7:15:51 AM

BoiJen

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FullfigRIMAAM1...

I love you. I really do.

boi

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Post #: 34

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 8:25:18 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I'd like to note that the banking industry has received over $1 trillion in bailout money. The banking industry that's designed to be able to balance their books or close their doors. The same banking industry that doesn't actually give you a product only a "service" at a "nominal" fee.

The auto industry has received rough $13 billion. They create a product and provide a service. And honestly if some of didn't treat your vehicles like shit, then they might stick around a bit longer. I'm going on year 9 of a GMC Jimmy with only maintenance work needed to be done plus a fuel pump (that lasted two years past it's original estimated dead date). Also, almost at half again as many miles on the tensioner as originally designed for and still going strong.

Gotta say GM hasn't fucked me once here. Where as I couldn't begin to count how many times I've had to call different banks I've worked with to get things fixed.

boi

Good points and you are quite correct...take care of your car (my primary is 15 years old...but it is German) and it will take care of you.

The bankers are a real hoot. The only borrower (besides the treasury) to dictate terms to his lender. They are the direct financial beneficiaries of the big 'entitlement' of public (taxpayer single payer 'health' insurance) backed deposit insurance (FDIC) all the while exporting as many telejobs as possible and with a part-time work day.

It is the banker of all time in western history that most exemplifies...that so-called liberal flaw in their culture of dependency and sense of entitlement and some...some are the biggest financial whores on two legs.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 35

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 8:32:35 AM

SteelofUtah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
Another reason that throwing Money at problems DOES NOT WORK.
Steel
Of course throwing money at problems work... If only temporarily. My position though, is that American manufacturing should be guided and saved. And frankly, I would rather throw money to keep american manufacturing and jobs, than throwing endless money at AIG which does nothing other than suck money down a black hole apparently. M

We agree on the AIG Part but not the GM,

Here is where I get annoyed. I see the Unions at times as a Necessary Evil, This is coming from someone who was on the Books at one time. The Automotive Unions that Govern the individuals who work there have created an industry that pays an Ungodly amount for it's labor while creating an air of arrogance around it. My Issue with the Unions have always been the Workers not the Unions itself. I have been told to SLOW DOWN as a Finisher because if I upped production the job would be finished too fast. I have come across this along a wide spectrum of Unions so I know it isn't just Tile and Stone.

Eventually we are just paying too much for a car than a car should ever be worth and after a practice of this over 80 years we are now stuck with an industry that we created and never regulated. Do you honestly believe the guy who thumps the tires to make sure they are properly inflated should be paid $30.00 an hour to do so with 2 paid coffee breaks? Because of the Union he is intitled to this. I just don't believe that job deserves that kind of wage. Sure there are Many Jobs there that I do believe take more skill and thus should be paid more but No I don't believe the tire thump guy and the Floor Sweeping guy deserve to be paid 62,400 a year for what they do especially when those wages are incorporated into the vehicle that I am expectedto buy that is 10,000 more expensive than an import all because we believe we should pay these guys to hold the company for randsom and threaten a strike if they don't get thier annual 5 to 10 %.

If we were realistic we would again let these companies FAIL and wait until someone finds a new way to produce inexpensive vehicles in America, JUST LIKE IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE. Banking on a Bad Horse is a BAD Practice and in doing so we, where we give a Bail out that you and I and every other American Tax Payer has to pay for and then have the company fail anyway is ludicris to me. Why Shovel Money that we don't have to begin with to a Bad Business Practice?

Steel

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Post #: 36

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 8:34:41 AM

submaleinzona

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I saw the news item about GM being within week of possibly declaring Chapter 11. I think that is exactly what should have been done "before" the taxpayers put up all that money. Doesn't mean they are going to close the doors, but it will give them an opportunity to reneogtiate contracts, particularly union contracts that have put U.S. auto manufacturers at a competitive disadvantage. The fact is that GM over the years also did not provide what consumers wanted in terms of value for the investment and had a terrible dealer repair system. I've been buying foreign cars for twenty years after serveral misadventures in a row with new GM cars.

You make a good point about the dealer repair system. It sucks big time. I've had to deal with fleet vehicles for our agency (mostly GM), and the worst experiences I've had were at a Pontiac dealership and a Chevrolet dealership. There are times when you have to go to the dealer, especially when you have a "check engine" light on and a mechanic runs a diagnostic check with the car's computer and gets a code with the message, "see dealer." So, you have to go to the dealer just to find out what's wrong with the fricken' thing. And that's another thing. Back in the old days, auto manufacturers used to put GAUGES in their cars so you could get an idea of what's going on. Now, they have idiot lights that pop on with vague messages like "check engine" which can mean anything from the gas cap not being replaced properly to imminent disaster.

They have middlemen at the dealers called "service representatives" which prevent direct contact between the customer and the actual mechanic who's working on your vehicle. It just wastes more time that way, since they can't answer any questions and end up having to call someone else while they pledge to "get back to you" at some indefinite time in the future. Will my car be ready today? Tomorrow? Next week? No one seems to know.

So, when they treat their customers like that, it's no wonder that people go somewhere else when they're ready to buy their next car.

I also get the sense (although I could be wrong about this) that Detroit has been putting most of its eggs in the high-end, luxury cars that people can afford in good times, but not in hard times.

In recent years, I've also heard a lot of GM commercials pushing On Star, which leads me to think they were counting more on that service to sell vehicles than the vehicles themselves. It's as if they were trying to sell around the product they're selling, which is a red flag to me, as a consumer. If a company throws in a lot of free gifts and extras that you probably don't really need, it's likely to distract attention from the lousy product they're trying to sell you.

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Post #: 37

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 8:36:47 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Heretic, how is it "entitlement " when all anyone of those line workers are asking for is what they were promised?

And I'll quote myself to fix your problem with putting words into my mouth...

"Pardon me if I don't believe every word written by a drunk. On his own admission, Hamper was a vivid drunk even on the line. I don't consider him typical of a line worker..."

No where in there does it say

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

the cars were built by drunks

boi

Being from motown maybe it was a company town joke but it informs that if you can find out...NEVER buy any car made on a Monday (hangovers) or as it grew, Friday for that matter...too eager to get the hell out-a-town.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 38

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 8:52:52 AM

BoiJen

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Steel, this is just an emphasis that the leaders of the UAW are willing to fuck the employer at the expense of long term company viability (meaning they say "give us everything now we don't care if there are jobs later for other people"). And with the power that the UAW has, the big three can't say "no" or they loose all of their line workers in one fell swoop. Now, don't get me wrong I support Unions as far as they come when they are needed. But the Union leaders here are just as corrupt as the companies that they were created to help protect employee against. Now the only difference is that the UAW is putting the employers out of business.

SMinAZ, those additions weren't created to distract from any problems a vehicle may or may not have, they were added because people were demanding them. Supply and demand, makes perfect sense to me. which is the same reason there was a focus on higher end vehicles...people wanted them. The companies were slow to react to rapid changes in demand. It's not about all the eggs in one basket blindly, it's about putting your money where your sutomers say they want it. Creating the product that there is demand for because otherwise you end up loosing customers.

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/9/2009 8:54:46 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Noone talking about GM ? - 3/9/2009 10:04:52 AM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

...and of course, as we all know, this is NOT just a way for republicans to bust the unions, right? And to cut loose the thousands of retired American workers who gave this company the best years of their lives, with the understanding that they would be taken care of in their old age... because, of course, THOSE will be the people who get screwed by this Chapter 11 reorganization.

Just sayin'...

They came to work with an entitlement mentality, and built crap. Fuck 'em.

It is attitudes from those who go shooting off their mouths and is still stuck in the 1960s union history that does not have a fucking clue as to what is happening within the auto industry or union today or what the workers have agreed to sacrifice in order to help a company that keeps me out mostly out of these discussions

and has no idea of how things run inside a plant, and for your info it is the company that is sending the crap out the door, I wish my union books were here instead of in my locker as I would have scan some of the letters of intent between company and union, which are requests from the union to try an prevent crap from going out the door... a lot is due to bad supplier parts, bad equipment, and bad metal and malfunctioning welding robots are biggies, and I have spoken to former workers from other plants around the US going back as far as the early seventies and they were battling the company over the same issues then that is still an issue today, with management refusing to stop the lines or pull the vehicles off to fix properly

They have no idea why an auto worker gets paid higher and what sacrifices they make for that fucking pay, because that paycheck does come with strings

I am an autoworker ... I used to work in a sweatshop(garment textile) as well which is the extreme other end of manufacturing, retail, computer programmer, and other jobs...having worked in multiple areas I can guarantee you the auto worker does earn their paycheck.

And just because you know a couple redneck autoworkers does not mean the major are like that

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