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ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Actually, the argument about the church interfering with science and engineering goes back much farther than the Catholics threatening Galileio and burning Bruno at the stake. If you've ever watched the PBS series Cosmos (available on Netflix, I believe) you'll hear Carl Sagan talk about the great library of Alexandria. Whose cheif librarian was named Hyapatia. The library was a repository of all sorts of information, including (we know through tangental accounts) information on astronomy that was 800 years ahead of it's time, by our history. But of course, a religious fanatic at the time had his followers attack and kill Hyapatia (using sea shell knives to flay her to the bone while still alive) and burned the library to the ground, setting the human race's knowledge back by several hundred years.
If this hadn't happened, Sagan conjectured... we might be building starships today, and have fusion power. The point is, that religious groups are very bad for knowledge.

Remember this, the next time a nutcase in your area suggests teaching "ID" or "Creationisim" in you public schools.

As far as Termy's "uneducated people iz jus as gud as you high-falutin' types" argument... Well, if ignorance is so great, then I think he should put his money where his mouth is. He should pull his kids from school, and make sure they grow up in his much admired "uneducated state."

Edison had over 100 highly educated men working for him, using the scientific method to engineer each and every idea he had. He was also known to sabatoge the work of rivals. (He's still believed to be responsible for the fire at Tesla's Colorado Springs lab.)

Henry Ford... well, it won't take much online reseach to see where his mind was at... just Google "Ford nazis history" and see the whole ugly story of anti-american sentiment and anti semitisim.

Many of the other people he lists also had a bad side to them. Sometimes engaging in criminal activity to make sure they came out ahead of their rivals.

Just sayin'...

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


God, I just love it when another Heinlein fan goes all medieval on a false interpretation of his works.

Makes me all warm and fuzzy.  [:D][8D]

Firm

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Exactly. You are the Ken Kesey of Beer.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


God, I just love it when another Heinlein fan goes all medieval on a false interpretation of his works.

Makes me all warm and fuzzy.  [:D][8D]

Firm

LOL

Just do NOT get me started on Paul Verhoeven's Repugnant Bastardization of Starship Troopers.  (Fu**er did not even READ the book!  GRRRRR!)


But warm and fuzzy is good.  It is cold and rainy here. 

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

They used tio beieve the Earth was flat, in fact that "truth" was enforced at the tip of a sword, or the yoke of a gallows more than once from what I have read. In the wake of what happened in my thread about Man vs Woman, I have given careful cinsideration to me next assertation or dissertation, whatever you may wish to call it. To those who disagree with me, or who simply like to disagree, you are going to have a hard time finding any stones to throw in the vicinity of this one.

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People in here are frequently asked to provide "proof" or other substantiation for their statements. Now when it comes to certain issues like statistics and/or hisrical events, OK, but when it comes to science I firmly believe that we must not resort to that if we are to achieve the greatest understanding of the point possible.

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Many seem to want to see published articles from reknowned universities written by people with letters after their name, such as Phd. Letters like those seem to inbue a sort of infallibility on the author, and instill belief in the reader. This is where we go wrong I believe. I believe that while the source is important at times, the content should at least be judged on it's own merit. I decided to do some really quickie research on three individuals before posting this, so consider the following ;

Alexander Graham Bell. Everyone knows what he did. Well he did not have a higher formal education as far as I can find, and found that he was actually home schooled for a time.

Thomas Alva Edison, over a thousand patents and no degree. A brilliant Man, also home schooled for a time.

Ransom Eli Olds, who actually had a mass produced, low cost car in this country before Henry Ford, also had no letters after his name. I do not know if he was home schooled.

Two of these people were born in Ohio, is there something in the water or what ? The three of them, completely independently revolutionized the world, basically started the industrial age. (for good or bad I might add) Not one of them had a degree, so even though they are recognized now, back then, their ideas did not come from a classroom.

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So no, Ford did not invent the car (as we know it) Olds did. I did not delve into Ford's background but I wouldn't be surprised to find something similar there. No doubt there were similar developments in Europe at about the same time, but what of those inventors ? I can tell you this much, not one of them came out of Harvard or Yale. (and I haven't even checked, so correct me if I am wrong)

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Farnswoth invented television while he was still in school, I don't know about Baird but he was inventing it almost simultaneously in England. That is not to say formally educated people invented nothing. Columbia Broadcasting (CBS) invented color TV, but Radio Corporation of America came up with the compatible NTSC system which is due for obsolesence this year. However for year years tween, most color TV systems around the world emulated the SSB type tramission invented HERE. I know because it is my job to know. Also most of these system were superior to NTSC, but they had a working idea and time to improve upon it. The invention of the COMB filter was necessary for VCRs to be invented, and someone at Sony did it. But then that is another country.

The COMB filter was an integral component of the PAL system used in Europe for quite some time, and when incorporated into TVs stateside, improved the resolution dramatically. But it was still our system to start with, just with a different number of scan lines and higher subcarrier frequncies. Had compatibility not been a problem we could've jacked it up here as well and had a sharper image.

But at another point of history some caveman probably named "Og" invented the wheel and had just as important an impact on human society as any of these modern doodads we take for granted.

And so many things have been reinvented. The new snazzy lockup torque convertor in you car which is necessary for overdrive to work properly, it was invented in the 1930s. Now don't screw with me here, I have a book from the 1930s describing them, and it IS old. Do I have to scan it for you ? They had electric cars in the 1910s, and I know it for a fact because the book exists and it is described in quite a bit of detail. Now of course I wonder who invented these things and what their level of education was (I know, grammar, spank me). In fact many of the features incorporated in your new cars were already on a car that almost made it, the Cord. They were made in the 1940s. Disc brakes for example. There is some controversy regarding the demise of the Cord motor company, which I will not delve into here.

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So the only logical conclusion is that the old infromation is as important as the new. Another thing to consider is that it is actually proven that good ideas can come from anywhere. That means a guy with more letters after his name than in his name can be worng, and some guy writing from a basement in Ohio somewhere lined with beer cans can be right.

Your thoughts ?

T

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Exactly. You are the Ken Kesey of Beer.

Or Kesey was the Termyn8r of LSD.

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Maybe I should just give up. At no time did I mention Nazis, Ford got a brief mention and I know all about him and the Nazis, but before we were engaged in war with them, there was nothing wrong with that. Further, the Nazis performed near miracles for Germany, which some oif the advantages are still enjoyed today. No matter how bad they were, there are still extant facts that cannot be denied. This productive hard working people are being bled to death by war reparations for WW1 WHICH HITLER DID NOT START. The world set Germany up for someone like him to rise to power, and to subsequently fall. Right or wrong, they did what they thought best for their country, which is something I haven't seen in about our last fifteen fucking Presidents here.

If I wanted to start a Nazi thread I would have. Read the title. You want to talk about Germany today, first go learn about Ernst Zundel. Bishop (yes in the Cathoklic church) Williamson. There are others.

Don't bring up the Nazis or Hitler or Germany. If I want a flame war I'll start one, but suffice it to say I would not want to live under their rule, and I am not too fond of their intolerance for people who are not "normal". Note that this intolerance is also readily seen in many societies and churches even today.

The preaching of tolerance includes tolerance for all who are not harmful, if not it is a lie. I don't lie. I have no reason to lie. Here is some truth, reverse bigotry IS bigotry, reverse discrimination IS discrimination. That is a fact founded in pure logic.

The other day in a conversation with a buddy who is also a Constitutionalist, he said the Constitution says.......... I had to correct him, the Constitution DOES NOT say that. And if you come to argue with the truth and don't want the other side to "interpret", then you don't get to do it either. Stand or fall by the words, but do not twist them, that is what got us into this mess in the first place. Fair is fair. Right is right and truth is truth.  When you tell someone not to read between the lines, to just read the lines, make sure you are doing that yourself.

For example the second amendment does not say thast you can have a nuclear bomb, or any weapon of mass destruction in city limits.  That would be absurd. It is the reading between the lines though, that gives motion to this notion. If you simply read the lines, all the lines and nothing but the lines you have the right to have weapons to protect yourself, and that also means to protect yourself from the government. It doesn't say that you have the right to take thousands of lives from your fellow Citizens, not by a stretch.

This is one of the things that bother me greatly, so many claim to preach the truth, but are not standing on truth, they stand on their interpretation of the truth. This is as wrong for one side of an argument as much as it is for the other.

It makes no sense to argue the finer points of the Nazis or the USSR or any other failed attempt at organizing a society. The fact is that we are falling just like the Roman Empire, and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. When, not if, but when we take that fall I would like a truckload of mattresses parked outside my window. How about you ?

T

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Exactly. You are the Ken Kesey of Beer.

Or Kesey was the Termyn8r of LSD.

At least SOMEBODY got it. [8D]

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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

While the church wielded much clout in the past, they have lost their teeth so to speak, I doubt they have much to do with the new button on the cell, or the placement of that cupholder, or even the mode of propulsion of new vehicles. They may have poked their fingers into the stem cell research issue but that's all that is apparent in modern times, at least off the top of my head.

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Mit brennender Sorge (German for "With burning concern") is a Roman Catholic Church encyclical of Pope Pius XI, published on March 10, 1937 (but bearing a date of Passion Sunday, March 14). The encyclical criticized Nazism, listed breaches of an agreement signed with the Church and condemned antisemitism. Drafted by the future Pope Pius XII, who was in Munich at the time of Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch[1], it warned Catholics that the growing Nazi ideology, which exalted one race over all others, was incompatible with Christianity. Pius XI himself had elsewhere condemned anti-semitism in more explicit terms.[2]

The encyclical was written in German and not the usual Latin of official Roman Catholic Church documents. It was addressed to German bishops and was read in all parish churches of Germany. Pope Pius XI credited its creation and writing to the Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII. There was no pre-announcement of the encyclical, and its distribution was kept secret in an attempt to ensure the unhindered public reading of its contents in all the Catholic Churches of Germany.

This encyclical condemned particularly the paganism of the national-socialism ideology, the myth of race and blood, and the fallacy of their conception of God.

Some passages stated:

8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds...

10. This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception. Rulers and subjects, crowned and uncrowned, rich and poor are equally subject to His word. From the fullness of the Creators' right there naturally arises the fullness of His right to be obeyed by individuals and communities, whoever they are. This obedience permeates all branches of activity in which moral values claim harmony with the law of God, and pervades all integration of the ever-changing laws of man into the immutable laws of God.

11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xl, 15).

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Eugenics is a scientific field involving the controlled breeding of humans in order to achieve desirable traits in future generations.[2] Eugenics was at its height in the early decades of the 20th century and was largely abandoned with the end of World War II.[3] At its zenith, the movement often pursued pseudoscientific notions of racial supremacy and purity.[4]

Eugenics was not confined to any one country or culture, but was practised around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Its advocates regarded it as a social philosophy for the improvement of human hereditary traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of certain people and traits, and the reduction of reproduction of certain people and traits.[5] Today it is widely regarded as a brutal movement which inflicted massive human rights violations on millions of people.[6] The "interventions" advocated and practised by eugenicists involved prominently the identification and classification of individuals and their families, including the poor, mentally ill, blind, 'promiscuous women', homosexuals and entire "racial" groups——such as the Roma and Jews——as "degenerate" or "unfit"; the segregation or institutionalisation of such individuals and groups, their sterilization, their "euthanasia", and in the worst case of Nazi Germany, their mass extermination.[7]

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Invasive Species During the past two centuries, invasive species have significantly changed the Great Lakes ecosystem. In turn, the changes have had broad economic and social effects on people that rely on the system for food, water, and recreation. An "invasive species" is a plant or animal that is non-native (or alien) to an ecosystem, and whose introduction is likely to cause economic, human health, or environmental damage in that ecosystem. Once established, it is extremely difficult to control their spread.

Invasive Animal Species

At least 25 non-native species of fish have entered the Great Lakes since the 1800s, including round goby, sea lamprey, Eurasian ruffe, alewife and others.

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Gattaca is a 1997 science fiction drama film written and directed by Andrew Niccol, starring Ethan Hawke, Uma Thurman and Jude Law with supporting roles played by Loren Dean, Gore Vidal and Alan Arkin.[1] The film was a 1997 nominee for the Academy Award for Best Art Direction — Set Decoration.

The film presents a biopunk vision of a society driven by liberal eugenics.[2][3] Children of the middle and upper classes are selected through preimplantation genetic diagnosis to ensure they possess the best hereditary traits of their parents. A genetic registry database uses biometrics to instantly identify and classify those so created as valids while those conceived by traditional means are derisively known as faith births, god children and in-valids. While genetic discrimination is forbidden by law, in practice it is easy to profile one's genotype resulting in the Valids qualifying for professional employment while the In-Valids who are susceptible to disease are relegated to menial jobs.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Gattaca is fine film and provides much to consider in how we go about shaping our future.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Term,
 
If I understand your point, it is that genius does not take place only in academic settings.
 

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ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Actually, the invention of the wheel by the caveman Og was of limited benefit to humankind.

It was his neighbour Ig who invented the second wheel, axle and cup holder that threw society headlong into technical advancement.