Money mess created by six years of Iraq

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rulemylife -> Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 3:33:09 PM)
Plain Talk By Al Neuharth, USA TODAY Founder Much is being written and said about the new stimulus law (officially the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009). Not enough of us explain or realize why we're in this money mess. It's primarily because we've spent or authorized more money on the Iraq war (its sixth anniversary is next Thursday) than we're putting into the stimulus program. Comparison: •The Iraq war $864 billion. •The stimulus program $787 billion. Sure, greedy bankers, covetous Wall Streeters, irresponsible buyers of homes and cars they couldn't afford all contributed to this recession. But if we hadn't blown that huge bundle in Iraq, we could have handled our problems here at home more easily. Most of us consider Iraq to have been President Bush's biggest blunder. It was, but Congress voted to let him do it. Five months before we invaded Iraq, I wrote in this column on Oct. 4, 2002: "Congress is 'debating,' but President Bush and his hawkish cohorts are demanding a virtual blank check to wage war on Iraq. They'll probably get it. That's a mistake." Many Democrats as well as nearly all Republicans in Congress gave Bush that blank check. Votes on the Iraq resolution: • House of Representatives: Yes, 215 Republicans, 81 Democrats. • Senate: Yes, 48 Republicans, 29 Democrats. By contrast, the votes on President Obama's recovery or stimulus plan to clean up the mess that Congress helped create with the Iraq misadventure: • House: 246 Democrats, 0 Republicans. • Senate: 56 Democrats, 3 Republicans. Both parties got us into this mess, but only one is trying to get us out of it. As a political independent, I understand that. No matter your party affiliation or inclination, you should, too. Continue reading "Money mess created by six years of Iraq" »

FullCircle -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 6:52:43 PM)
I'm not much of a historian but it seems the US has always had a gigantic hole in its budget. The wars don't help or do they? It does keep people employed in all kinds of cottage industries. I've always seen it as being wars are a business of the US in terms of their arms dealings/security support services. This is the main problem every so often they have to have a war to demonstrate their technology to foreign buyers. Also there is no real incentive for weapons to be bought if there is peace in the middle east. All of this above also applies to the UK and it’s ‘ethical foreign policy’ I suspect. I’m probably wrong though.

xBullx -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 7:18:12 PM)
I know some of you folks out there might be having trouble, but there is a forest just behind the trees....of course if you have partisan set of shades you might not even see either. This problem began long ago, in a world bent on fair trade and open business borders that were really only open a single direction. All those jobs that we could have been falling back on are in the "third" world. Yes that's right, jobs we could be falling back on, not Government bank accounts. America has never been bailed out by an FDR or any other politician’s vast skill or wisdom. Business built this country, the government just looked after the interests of fair play (monopoly control, OSHA, labor laws) you know common sense things. Of course in their arrogance they too have become overly self important and we the citizens have resigned to claiming there is nothing we can do. This is our home, our country, if we don't give a shit about the entire team, then Philadelphia Eagles and gonna pound our Dallas Cowboy asses, even if we were supposed to be Super Bowl favorites (there is a practical analogy in there, you might have to ask a football fan to help you with it). We have to many(fellow citizens) that have lost sight of their humanity and become lost in their greed. There are still those (supposedly our own kind) that would sell us to the "devil" if they stood to profit. America's Social and Financial Aristocracy has lost it's way and instead of demonstrating solid leadership qualities we can count on they're selling us to the highest bidder. So we need to stop pointing the finger at "W" alone. Every one of our political heroes are for sale; that has become the American way. The war has been expensive, everything is expensive. But this war didn't cause this mess; it may have contributed to certain aspects, but get over the "George witch hunt", we actually do have more important fish to fry. Obama isn't our savior; he's just the next patsy. The war isn't the problem, it's simply the distraction. The US isn't the leader, it's just the consumer; the high stakes gambler that's luck has run out. Get it straight out there at masturbation central. No one is fucking US/us but US/us.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 7:45:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FullCircle I'm not much of a historian but it seems the US has always had a gigantic hole in its budget. The wars don't help or do they? It does keep people employed in all kinds of cottage industries. I've always seen it as being wars are a business of the US in terms of their arms dealings/security support services. This is the main problem every so often they have to have a war to demonstrate their technology to foreign buyers. Also there is no real incentive for weapons to be bought if there is peace in the middle east. All of this above also applies to the UK and it’s ‘ethical foreign policy’ I suspect. I’m probably wrong though. Oh, no, you're not. That's exactly what we do. The US has no interest at all in peace in the Middle East unless we can broker an agreement that gives us some sort of decided strategic advantage. If peace breaks out, nobody will need us to stabilize things. Google the term "offshore balancing", The Atlantic had an extraordinary article about it 7 or 8 years ago, but I don't know if it's online or not. If it is, it's very much worth the read, and will explain a lot of things about American foreign policy in the post-WWII era. That's a large part of what Iraq was all about, but it doesn't seem as though it's going to turn out quite the way the Bushers had hoped. The idea was that Iraq would be our hole card; no matter what happens with Israel and her territorial disputes, we'd have a strong Arab nation deeply in our pocket and a very large military presence forward-based right on top of the world's largest oil reserves. Now, almost a trillion dollars into this master plan, we're pretty much back to having to tie our fortunes to Israel while trying to balance both sides against the other without pissing the Arabs off enough to drive them closer to the Chinese or the Russians.

rulemylife -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 10:16:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx I know some of you folks out there might be having trouble, but there is a forest just behind the trees....of course if you have partisan set of shades you might not even see either. This problem began long ago, in a world bent on fair trade and open business borders that were really only open a single direction. All those jobs that we could have been falling back on are in the "third" world. Yes that's right, jobs we could be falling back on, not Government bank accounts. America has never been bailed out by an FDR or any other politician’s vast skill or wisdom. Business built this country, the government just looked after the interests of fair play (monopoly control, OSHA, labor laws) you know common sense things. Of course in their arrogance they too have become overly self important and we the citizens have resigned to claiming there is nothing we can do. This is our home, our country, if we don't give a shit about the entire team, then Philadelphia Eagles and gonna pound our Dallas Cowboy asses, even if we were supposed to be Super Bowl favorites (there is a practical analogy in there, you might have to ask a football fan to help you with it). We have to many(fellow citizens) that have lost sight of their humanity and become lost in their greed. There are still those (supposedly our own kind) that would sell us to the "devil" if they stood to profit. America's Social and Financial Aristocracy has lost it's way and instead of demonstrating solid leadership qualities we can count on they're selling us to the highest bidder. So we need to stop pointing the finger at "W" alone. Every one of our political heroes are for sale; that has become the American way. The war has been expensive, everything is expensive. But this war didn't cause this mess; it may have contributed to certain aspects, but get over the "George witch hunt", we actually do have more important fish to fry. Obama isn't our savior; he's just the next patsy. The war isn't the problem, it's simply the distraction. The US isn't the leader, it's just the consumer; the high stakes gambler that's luck has run out. Get it straight out there at masturbation central. No one is fucking US/us but US/us. This article wasn't about a "George witch hunt". It was about the reality that as much as we are hearing about how the stimulus plan is going to bankrupt the country and put our children and grandchildren in debt forever, the stimulus package is less than the cost of the Iraq War.

blacksword404 -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/14/2009 10:57:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Plain Talk By Al Neuharth, USA TODAY Founder Much is being written and said about the new stimulus law (officially the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009). Not enough of us explain or realize why we're in this money mess. It's primarily because we've spent or authorized more money on the Iraq war (its sixth anniversary is next Thursday) than we're putting into the stimulus program. Comparison: •The Iraq war $864 billion. •The stimulus program $787 billion. Sure, greedy bankers, covetous Wall Streeters, irresponsible buyers of homes and cars they couldn't afford all contributed to this recession. But if we hadn't blown that huge bundle in Iraq, we could have handled our problems here at home more easily. Most of us consider Iraq to have been President Bush's biggest blunder. It was, but Congress voted to let him do it. Five months before we invaded Iraq, I wrote in this column on Oct. 4, 2002: "Congress is 'debating,' but President Bush and his hawkish cohorts are demanding a virtual blank check to wage war on Iraq. They'll probably get it. That's a mistake." Many Democrats as well as nearly all Republicans in Congress gave Bush that blank check. Votes on the Iraq resolution: • House of Representatives: Yes, 215 Republicans, 81 Democrats. • Senate: Yes, 48 Republicans, 29 Democrats. By contrast, the votes on President Obama's recovery or stimulus plan to clean up the mess that Congress helped create with the Iraq misadventure: • House: 246 Democrats, 0 Republicans. • Senate: 56 Democrats, 3 Republicans. Both parties got us into this mess, but only one is trying to get us out of it. As a political independent, I understand that. No matter your party affiliation or inclination, you should, too. Continue reading "Money mess created by six years of Iraq" » And if we did not have a fiat money system there would be virtually no chance of us being in this situation. We used to be the largest lender of money. Now we are the biggest debtor nation. Our money has lost damn near all of it's value from what it once was. If the government did not have the ability to print money we, would not be in this mess. One thing about Fiat systems. Eventually they always crash and burn horribly. Always. If this is not that crash then...

MrRodgers -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/15/2009 1:42:53 AM)
I thought we had decided long ago that all wars are profitable and that all wars could be for-profit wars and that all wars are to further the cause...for the next war.

VanessaChaland -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/15/2009 1:58:41 AM)
You have a few valid points, or at least sentiments, however, three words for you regarding G.W. Bush.:::: Worst. President. Ever. This guy did more to harm the USA than anyone else ever did, and more than most previous Presidents did,,,, combined. Torture? 2257? Illegal wiretaps? Rendition? Habeas Corpus (goes all the way back to the Magna Carta in the year 1215)? No bid contracts to his buddies (KBR/Cheney)? Hiring and funding mercenaries? "Good job Brownie" on Katrina? The Carlisle Group? Project For The New American Century? Neo-conservative movement? The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on. Worst. President. Ever. He deserves blame, he earned investigations, he might have even qualified for an all expense paid one way ticket to the Hague. Get over it/him? I think not. :) quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx I know some of you folks out there might be having trouble, but there is a forest just behind the trees....of course if you have partisan set of shades you might not even see either. This problem began long ago, in a world bent on fair trade and open business borders that were really only open a single direction. All those jobs that we could have been falling back on are in the "third" world. Yes that's right, jobs we could be falling back on, not Government bank accounts. America has never been bailed out by an FDR or any other politician’s vast skill or wisdom. Business built this country, the government just looked after the interests of fair play (monopoly control, OSHA, labor laws) you know common sense things. Of course in their arrogance they too have become overly self important and we the citizens have resigned to claiming there is nothing we can do. This is our home, our country, if we don't give a shit about the entire team, then Philadelphia Eagles and gonna pound our Dallas Cowboy asses, even if we were supposed to be Super Bowl favorites (there is a practical analogy in there, you might have to ask a football fan to help you with it). We have to many(fellow citizens) that have lost sight of their humanity and become lost in their greed. There are still those (supposedly our own kind) that would sell us to the "devil" if they stood to profit. America's Social and Financial Aristocracy has lost it's way and instead of demonstrating solid leadership qualities we can count on they're selling us to the highest bidder. So we need to stop pointing the finger at "W" alone. Every one of our political heroes are for sale; that has become the American way. The war has been expensive, everything is expensive. But this war didn't cause this mess; it may have contributed to certain aspects, but get over the "George witch hunt", we actually do have more important fish to fry. Obama isn't our savior; he's just the next patsy. The war isn't the problem, it's simply the distraction. The US isn't the leader, it's just the consumer; the high stakes gambler that's luck has run out. Get it straight out there at masturbation central. No one is fucking US/us but US/us.

pahunkboy -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/15/2009 12:01:51 PM)
the banks fund both sides of a war. war debts is a way to transfer money to the banks. Note that Wiemar Germany, had war debts, hyper inflation occurred, but a most curious thing happened in regard to the war debts to the banks. The banks insisted on payment to be made, in GOLD. Not currency.

popeye1250 -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/18/2009 10:44:18 AM)
Yeah, we need to put an end to this bullshit of sending Troops to foreign countries to act as,......."peace-keepers." Also, we need to put an end to "foreign aid!" We simply can't afford this kind of thing anymore and we should never be doing it in the first place!

rulemylife -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/18/2009 11:24:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Yeah, we need to put an end to this bullshit of sending Troops to foreign countries to act as,......."peace-keepers." Also, we need to put an end to "foreign aid!" We simply can't afford this kind of thing anymore and we should never be doing it in the first place! Amazing that we are a nation constantly involved in conflict. Maybe we need to learn to separate national interest from corporate interest.

FullCircle -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/18/2009 11:46:18 AM)
The real question is what do you do with troops when they aren’t being sent around the world? They exist to fight so are we suddenly going to find them at home out of work looking for alternative work or are they going to be sent to the next cause as a training exercise? Leaving Germany anytime soon? Remind me when did WW2 finish? The idea these people are one war away from being at home is nonsense, it seems to me they exist to be elsewhere other than the home they are fighting for.

subboi3382 -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/18/2009 10:23:42 PM)
at least we found their WMDs

rulemylife -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/18/2009 10:26:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subboi3382 at least we found their WMDs HUH? Do please explain this.

scarlethiney -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 7:41:23 AM)
quote: You have a few valid points, or at least sentiments, however, three words for you regarding G.W. Bush.:::: Worst. President. Ever. This guy did more to harm the USA than anyone else ever did, and more than most previous Presidents did,,,, combined. Torture? 2257? Illegal wiretaps? Rendition? Habeas Corpus (goes all the way back to the Magna Carta in the year 1215)? No bid contracts to his buddies (KBR/Cheney)? Hiring and funding mercenaries? "Good job Brownie" on Katrina? The Carlisle Group? Project For The New American Century? Neo-conservative movement? The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on. Worst. President. Ever. He deserves blame, he earned investigations, he might have even qualified for an all expense paid one way ticket to the Hague. Get over it/him? I think not. :) [sm=yourock.gif]

kittinSol -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 8:04:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: subboi3382 at least we found their WMDs HUH? Do please explain this. I think it was a joke. ~ WishfulThinker

Mercnbeth -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 8:31:36 AM)
Why stop at Iraq? Why pick it as the starting point? Iraq came about due to the failure of 'Desert Storm'. The 'liberation' of Kuwait happened because of the support given to Iraq during the Iran/Iraqi conflict. The support for Iraq was caused by Iran becoming a country ruled by right wing religious fanatics. The right wing religious fanatics were able to take over because it was perceived as better than having a dictator in place. The dictator was put in place by the victors of WWII. The USA entered into WWII first as a 'vendor', and eventually as a participant as a catalyst to get us out of the last depression. The US entered into a depression because it, and it's citizens spent money they didn't have. Spending was encouraged by the expansion of credit. Credit was available when 'gold' was no longer backing the currency and more paper money was printed. Credit was considered a fundamental cornerstone of democracy allowing more people to achieve the 'American dream'. Democracy was put in place, when after winning the revolutionary war, George Washington refused to agree with those who wanted to make him 'king'. The revolutionary war was fought because the American Colonies were mismanaged by the British. The British mismanaged the colonies because they knew that anyone they sent to them was either a criminal or social outcast. The British became a world power because the Spanish Armada was defeated by weather conditions during their battle with the British fleet. Weather is an 'act of god'; which unlike an 'act of the devil' is NOT covered by insurance. Therefore, every President the USA has ever had shares part of the blame but ultimately; the "money mess" was created by god. Now that the critical issue of blame has been settled - which part of the 'plan' instituted by this Administration is pointed to addressing any of the economic issues of unemployment, burgeoning deficit, and lack of investor confidence? Start with - what IS the plan, other than deflecting blame?

rulemylife -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 8:37:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: subboi3382 at least we found their WMDs HUH? Do please explain this. I think it was a joke. ~ WishfulThinker Ah, OK. It was late, my brain wasn't working.

kittinSol -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 8:40:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth <snip> Revisionism is so convenient. Let's pretend history didn't ever happen, shall we?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Money mess created by six years of Iraq (3/19/2009 9:13:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth <snip> Revisionism is so convenient. Let's pretend history didn't ever happen, shall we? What? Do you claim to own the franchise rights? A suffer from a trait that is a common denominator, by necessity I believe, that having no rebuttal or answers to the questions posed, you MUST dismiss, name call, and attempt to distract. Similar rhetoric is now being exposed regarding this Administration. The same people, Frank, Dodd, and Obama screaming about the AIG payoff are the ones who facilitated the conditions to allow it to happen. Answer the fundamental question; when President Obama signed the stimulus containing specific Bonus permitting language, the language that not only endorsed but created the conditions allowing these to be paid; was he as stupid as the prior administration, or is he lying now in an effort to keep his knowledge and tacit approval from the citizens? However, lets give credit where it is due. Since this administration has taken power, there have been no deaths to military personal in Iraq. Although, I endorsed and expected the new President to fulfill his campaign promise of immediate withdraw, obviously continuing to support the prior administration's 'Surge' strategy is not costing more US blood - only money. I don't support his escalation of troop deployment in Afghanistan, or anywhere for that matter, but since the money being spent there is not being considered in this thread - I won't go into that here. There is a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress; the power to end the war TODAY - exists in their hands. It's true the Iraq occupation is costing us money better spent on domestic issues. It would seem to raise the question - why is this Administration continuing to do so and do you support that effort?

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