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Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/15/2004 6:06:53 PM

NightDaughter

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/23/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
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K I well know that this topics come up time and time and time again, so lets rehash them shall we?

I've been reading though some elists that I'm on and I don't know what it is but this themes coming up in all of them to varying degrees, so heres to Q for the community...

subs/slaves: what are some of your Hard Limits, what are some of your soft limits?

dominants: same question what are some of your Hard Limits and what are some of your soft limits?

both now the kicker, some people clime to have no limits what so ever, that what ever is asked of them they will do, well what do you think of this? Do you think that its truly possible to have no limits? if so please explain if not please also explain.

for my part I'll post my views after a few ppl have posted theirs.

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NightDaughter
My Blog - http://www.livejournal.com/users/nightdaughter/
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Post #: 1

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/15/2004 6:17:35 PM

kiki blue

Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
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When we talk limits, I only talk about things that might come up during play. For me to play with someone, they'll have to be morally and ethically compatible with me first of all. So the talk of children, animals, murder, dismemberment, etc don't come up at all. No one I know includes that in their "play".

quote:

ORIGINAL: NightDaughter
subs/slaves: what are some of your Hard Limits, what are some of your soft limits?

There are some things that just don't interest me, such as scat and watersports, and I really have no intention of trying them, at this point in my life. I really don't plan on trying scat anything at all, though, I must add.

Other things that don't really interest me, such as bondage, spanking, etc, are things I'll try during other play, but they're not limits as such, just things that don't float my boat. If they're given in the right context though, things can change.

When it comes to play, I do prefer to try them at least 3 times, to make sure if I really do/don't like them. I don't run around saying "I have no limits", because I'm interested in trying new things. I've become more open minded about things, the longer I've been involved in the scene.

quote:

both now the kicker, some people clime to have no limits what so ever, that what ever is asked of them they will do, well what do you think of this? Do you think that its truly possible to have no limits? if so please explain if not please also explain.

I think it's possible to have some things shelved into the "non limits" basket. If domly type and subly type are both squicked by knifeplay, then knives can get chucked into that box, and you never have to worry about it.

I think that with people who are morally and ethically compatible, as well as being of compatible in personality, outlooks and interests, then you don't have to worry about limits that much.

No matter what anyone says, limits are there.

_____________________________

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 2

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/15/2004 8:14:10 PM

theroebabe

Posts: 3155
Joined: 7/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NightDaughter

both now the kicker, some people clime to have no limits what so ever, that what ever is asked of them they will do, well what do you think of this? Do you think that its truly possible to have no limits? if so please explain if not please also explain.

Well we all have limits i think but we hopefully choose people we play with that have similiar ones so there is not real problem. That goes for people who play for fun as well as people in more serious relationships.

I think once people get the big things out of the way and determine that they match up on the important play types, that the rest will flow. I think limits change as people grow. for me as a sub, i would say that if the big play types are resolved then i will pretty much trust my domiant to try other things that might be what i consider to be a hard limit. if its done right, a dom can slowly get to the issue of a hard limit and see what it is that bothers the sub about it and may be able to try to ease into that type of play.

Its hard work and take a lot of time and effort if you want to do it properly. And some hard limits may never be breached (like people who have been raped might not do rape play), but if the people trust one another and know each other it may be something that can be woked on.

But any dominant that says to me "my goal is to try every one of your hard limits" then bye bye bubba, you are not respecting me or caring about me.

Roe

< Message edited by theroebabe -- 8/15/2004 8:15:23 PM >

_____________________________

Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 3

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/15/2004 8:16:57 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NightDaughter

both now the kicker, some people clime to have no limits what so ever, that what ever is asked of them they will do, well what do you think of this? Do you think that its truly possible to have no limits? if so please explain if not please also explain.

I personally consider myself to not have limits with my parnter. This is because our limits are the same. He know the things I am physically or mentally able to do. We match one another in the things that weird us out and have fairly compatable moral system. It took two years to get to this point, but I feel able to say that anything he asks of me I can and will do-because he knows what I am capable of and I trust him to not ask something that will damage me.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to theroebabe)

Post #: 4

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/15/2004 10:21:47 PM

newflowers

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Hard limits include things like scat (gross and unsanitary), animals (eww), children (incest is an illegal activity), breath and blood play (life threatening activities are out). There are some things I've never done that I think I'd like to try, but don't know if after trying them whether they'd become hard or soft limits or something I love.

I am finding that there are things that I can say I get used to though I find them embarassing - like having my hair stuck up so that I look like an ungroomed porcupine, well, embarassing but kind of funny. Nipple clamps fall in the soft limit category.

I do belive that between complimentary and compatible partners, limits are not such an issue. That said, as a thinking human, I do not think it is possible to say that I will always agree to and do something my partner may wish, to say that I have no limts. Regardless of my level of devotion, I am more than capable of saying no. Though I wish most to please my partner, for him to find me pleasing, my submission notwithstanding, I remain a thinking woman with opinions, likes, and dislikes of my own.

To say no limits would indicate that two people have identical needs and desires at all times. I cannot imagine it. To say no limts indicating one would do anything is not taking responsibility for one's person and safety.

newflowers

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 5

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 12:12:19 AM

temptation

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I honestly dont believe there is such a thing as "no limits" or at least, to the point where that person isnt certifiably insane.

I suppose on a shallow level, you could claim that in a bdsm sense you have "no limits"; but these would only pertain to the general, well known bdsm activity.

I'm gonna be one of those people who point out the painfully obvious to prove a point.

If you arent amenable having your eyes torn out, and your arms cut off while still concious before being stranded in the desert.. then you have at least one limit.

Let your imagination run wild, I bet you could think of quite a few things you'd want to say 'no' to.

I was trying to say that "no limits" usually mean within the SSC bdsm activity sense, which would rule out anything too.. um, yeah.

But then, if a "true" slave has no limits; SSC doesnt really apply, does it.

(in reply to newflowers)

Post #: 6

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 5:40:03 AM

kiki blue

Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: temptation
If you arent amenable having your eyes torn out, and your arms cut off while still concious before being stranded in the desert.. then you have at least one limit.

That's why I say I'd only play or submit to people I'm morally and ethically compatible with.

_____________________________

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

(in reply to temptation)

Post #: 7

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 8:08:14 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: temptation
If you arent amenable having your eyes torn out, and your arms cut off while still concious before being stranded in the desert.. then you have at least one limit.

Let your imagination run wild, I bet you could think of quite a few things you'd want to say 'no' to.

I was trying to say that "no limits" usually mean within the SSC bdsm activity sense, which would rule out anything too.. um, yeah.

But then, if a "true" slave has no limits; SSC doesnt really apply, does it.

Hehehehhe. This is ALWAYS the first kind of question I ask when someone says they are/are looking for a "no limits" slave. If someone -wants- a girl/boy who would willingly accept treatment like that if his/her partner wished it, I am not in any way interested in that person. I believe that one's sense of self-preservation should function at least minimally, even in a BDSM setting.

(And, well, not everyone plays SSC :) )

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to temptation)

Post #: 8

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 8:43:38 AM

newflowers

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Yes, I do tend to be fond of my limbs, eyes, and assorted body parts attached and I expect my blood to stay within my body.

I would hope that "no limits" and "testing limits" means within the realm of compatibility between partners in an established relationship. Anything else is just not safe and responsible behavior. I find those who say things like wanting "a slave to do with as I wish" and "testing/pushing beyond your limits" too much. Granted, there may be someone out there who wants such treatment, and the seekers are upfront about what they want, but it is scary, too much.

newflowers

(in reply to temptation)

Post #: 9

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 8:59:18 AM

Leonidas

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I think that these conversations go on, and on, and on, because of extremist envy. Somehow there's a psychological undercurrent in the BDSM community that says "If what I do is more extreme than what you do, I'm better". Slave sounds more extreme than submissive, so I'm a slave too, I just define "slave" differently. Master sounds, well, more masterly than dominant or top, so I'm a master too, I just define it differently. "No Limits" sounds more extreme than having limits, but I want to have limits, so I have to prove by some tortured logic that everyone has them, so that I can prove that nobody is more extreme than I am. Not having a contract sounds more extreme than having one, but I want one, so I have to similarly prove that everyone has one, so that they aren't more extreme than me. Even the title of this thread, with "theoretical" in quotes announces loud and clear that this is about the 1,497,344 foray into debunking the no limits "myth" that I've seen in the last 15 years.

Time to get over it.

Everyone alive has some kind of limit as to what they will tolerate before they either fight or flee, unless they have a death wish. That much is true, but only serves a rhetorical purpose in this argument. Some interpersonal dynamics have limits set and agreed to by the parties involved. Others do not. The ones that do not are sometimes called "no limits" (no limits have been set). One way is only better than the other to the extent that it satisfies the people involved. Period.

I have kept "no limits" slaves. What does that mean? It means that the slave was not allowed to negotiate the terms of their slavery. There was no covenant or agreement up front that limited what I was permitted to do in that dynamic. The slave set no limits, and I accepted no limits as a condition of her submission. As long as the collar was in place, the slave surrendered their right to say "no". Moreover, the slave had no right to say "but you said you wouldn't" or "but we agreed that", or "but our contract, in section 3 paragraph 4 clearly states that....". The slave had no right to say some pre-agreed word to get me to stop whatever it was that I was doing, either. As long as the collar was in place, I am unconditionally master, and the slave is unconditionally a slave. I have all of the control, the slave has none. If the collar comes off, it is a different story. The slave is no longer my slave. The dynamic that was has ended. That is what is meant by "no limits" slavery. If you have set limits up front to define what is and is not permissible for the dominant party, then you are engaging in some limited form of submission. One is not more extreme, or better, than the other. They are just different.

There are reasons that an arragnement like the above works best for some folks that I won't take the bandwith to explain. It is certainly not an arrangement that will work for everyone, or even for most folks. If the focus of the relationship is to be sado-masochism or various forms of fetish play, it probably isn't the right way to go. Slaves that have been trained in our ways generally fear sadists, not because they fear pain, but because they know that their desire to please would probably override common sense. They'd have to depend on the sadist to know when to stop, because "safe wording" out or saying no, if they did it at all, wouldn't occur to them until it really was a matter of self-preservation. Similarly, if the relationship is to be about the mutual indulgence of one another's "kinks" it's probably best to spell out what those kinks are up front. The kind of relationship that I describe above isn't generally about symetrical and mutual gratification where both parties are expected to do things that serve the pleasure of the other. It is an asymetrical form of dynamic where the slave serves the master, and is gratified wholly by the master's pleasure in their service. Again, not better, just different.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 10

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 9:46:51 AM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
Status: offline

quote:

Even the title of this thread, with "theoretical" in quotes announces loud and clear that this is about the 1,497,344 foray into debunking the no limits "myth" that I've seen in the last 15 years.

I agree that this was a "loaded question". . .that swayed people to answer one way. Well, at most you can tell that it wasn't posted in an unbiased manner.

quote:

"No Limits" sounds more extreme than having limits, but I want to have limits, so I have to prove by some tortured logic that everyone has them, so that I can prove that nobody is more extreme than I am.

Definitely. Most of these people set it up so that "no limits" is untenable in the first place. If you have "no limits". . .that means you are open to getting your arms and legs chopped off. If you aren't open to that, you have limits. If you ARE open to that, you are nuts.

quote:

I have kept "no limits" slaves. What does that mean? It means that the slave was not allowed to negotiate the terms of their slavery.

You and I both know that the "no-limits-is-a-myth" posse will say that it is a limit.

What it boils down to is. . .what is it that the "no-limits-is-a-myth" crew wanting to hear? What is the "magic" phrase that will make them concede that someone actually has no limits?
From a practical/pragmatic stand point, how many people have *actually* run across a sadist/dominant/top IN THE LIFESTYLE that wanted to gouge out the eyes of their slaves or cut off all their limbs? Has anyone personally asked you? You can take ANY situation to the extreme, a non realistic extreme. You can "question" somone's willingness to follow christian doctrine by saying: What if your parents wanted to gouge out your eyes and cut off your limbs? Honr they mother and father means exactly that! Neener neener neener!

Isn't it enough that a sub/slave that says "I have set no condition of limitation to my submission to my mistress."
Cheers

~Jules~

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to newflowers)

Post #: 11

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 9:49:13 AM

theroebabe

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i guess another way to put it is that the sub if they have "no limits" with their master, really do have limits they have their masters limits.

So heaven help those that do not pick the right dominant to play with,

Just another early day thought!

Roe

_____________________________

Roe

People always ask me why I do these things . . .
It's because I can!

(in reply to GoddessJules)

Post #: 12

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 9:51:40 AM

MrThorns

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Hard limits: Scat, Snuff (Deathplay), corpses, kids, amputation, disfigurement, fractures.

(Now, I understand that permanent marks could be considered disfigurement. I'm thinking far more drastic..more severe than a cutting, piercing or tattoo.)

I'm sure that there may be more hard limits...but its early...coffee hasnt kicked in yet.

I havent really seen any relationships that have no hard limits whatsoever. Even if it is a no limits relationship, there seems to be a trust and understanding and even a mutual respect. I live a no limits relationship...I understand that there are things that my slave has said that were her hard limits...but she understands, just as I do...that I am master of my house and that she, as my slave, is subject to whatever I desire.

She trusts that I will do what is best for her.
She trusts that I will cause her no harm.
She trusts that I will do what is best for the relationship.

This also touches on a topic Leonidas had brought up. Just because you CAN do something...SHOULD you?

I feel this applies to those no limit relationships. I could push a limit say...having my slave play with a cadaver. Do I have the power to do that. Yes. Do I want to deal with the emotional mess and feelings of betrayal that may arise afterwards? No. Can I do it? Sure...should I? I dont believe so.

Hope that helps shed some light on the subject.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 13

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:05:28 AM

NoCalOwner

Posts: 241
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I think that these conversations go on, and on, and on, because of extremist envy.

I suppose that you're probably right, although I'm not at all sure that having limits or not really shows more than how well established it is that the Master/slave are really compatible. In my household, we once set a safe word, long ago, but it has never been used, and I'm not sure that she remembers it anymore. No contract, but a solid understanding of each others likes and dislikes. Sure, there have been PLENTY of times when I've pushed her soft limits, because I knew where learning could happen, and where the limit lines were likely to change over time. But I've never humiliated her -- she's beautiful, extremely intelligent (National Merit Scholar, degree with highest honors, etc.), hardworking, and has a very good heart, so how much could I humiliate her without blatantly lying? And if she *were* a worthless POS, what honor or satisfaction could I possibly derive from having her as a part of my household? I don't really go for much in the way of punishment for similar reasons -- I'm not sadistic, so wouldn't get anything out of it myself, and would have no interest in a slave who wouldn't stay in line without fear of being beaten. I appreciate being loved, but would get nothing out of being feared. In these and similar regards, *my* limits are what comes into play, so I've rarely seen any hint of hers.

In short, I'm a pretty easygoing Master who knows his slave well enough to push where it's needed, but to skip the stuff which deadends. Yeah, I'm not extreme, by local standards my exclusion of SM makes me quite tame. But her loyalty to me is absolute, unwavering, and unconditional, and has been for almost a decade. I know that she would do absolutely anything for me, so feel no need to go out of the way for proof.

If I had a slave who hated my personal limits, or whose limits I was ignorant of or ignored, it would be a totally different situation. But if you find the right person(s), you should be able to totally forget about limits. In my opinion, anyway. If I competed to show that I was more extreme than my peers, I would feel like I'd compromised who I am, demonstrated an unseemly lack of backbone, and taken a turn down a wrong path.

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 14

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:14:30 AM

ScorpioMaster

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I know of some one who has no limit so far and that can be dangers for you will not know how far is too far. Limits should be slowly build up in time so you can figure out how far is too far when you first start out in the scene and you are a newbie. I even give my slave I am working with now a safe word. The person needs to slowly work up to the limits or learning to go past them.

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 15

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:28:14 AM

jillwfsub4blkdom

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i just wanted to say i really appreciate the thoughtful comments from Leonidas, GoddessJules, and MrThorns. i also agree with MrThorns bringing up a post in a recent thread by Leonidas of whether you can do something should you. i think that is very much tied into the question of limits.

_____________________________

"It's the moment that transcends
Our physical into a more spiritual level of understanding" - Musiq

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 16

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:32:03 AM

gitta

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Joined: 7/20/2004
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"THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY"
taking a deep long breath, chanting "because of what you are"

The manner that Leonidas describes a no limit slave, is the way this one chooses to live. Having been a slave for a good many years, i can honestly say i have never had a limit or safe word. (This can't be they are chanting in the background...we all have our beliefs.) When a collar is placed on the neck of a slave, they become the property of that Owner/Master...to use as they wish, period. If i did not trust that person, i would not wear His collar.

In a short amount of time i will enter into a training situation. When i go to this place, a collar will be put on my neck, i will become the property of this Trainer/Owner/Master. During the time i am there, He has total control of all that i am...can He harm me, yes He can...will He harm me, no He will not. What He will do is teach me to be a better slave. When the training ends, He has the choice of placing me, keeping me, or releasing me. What He chooses to do with me, is His choice, for it is His collar on my neck. There is not and will not be a limit to that choice.

Not sure this is of any help to anyone, i do know there are a few, who will understand, and most will not...that is ok.

_____________________________

smiles,
gitta

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 17

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:36:22 AM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
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Gitta,

I can TOTALLY believe it.

~Jules~

_____________________________

A pig's pussy is still pork, just like a bull's balls are still beef.
Click here to visit my site

(in reply to gitta)

Post #: 18

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:38:38 AM

gitta

Posts: 110
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GoddessJules,

THANK YOU!!!

_____________________________

smiles,
gitta

(in reply to GoddessJules)

Post #: 19

RE: Limits vs "Theoretical" No Limits - 8/16/2004 10:39:17 AM

Sundew02

Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
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I am not as wordy as Leo, but here it is short and simple. If you list yourself as a slave, then you are stating no limits. For any human being to state such, then they had better be darn sure of the person they are handing their life over to. THEY may have no limits, but I do. For me thats the key, a smart slave looks at the hard limits of the Dominants they are wooing. This question is never going away, and the responses from various people are never going to change. We each have our ground and are going to stand on it.Sundew

_____________________________

~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

(in reply to NightDaughter)

Post #: 20

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