RE: The House passes a punitive tax (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:12:51 AM)

I'm still not buying it Rule...Archer seems to have proved my point quite nicely.This is retalitory and serves to do nothing other than create scapegoats to be sacrificed for the purpose of placating an angry populace.



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:29:32 AM)

You are talking criminal and civil law here, not legislative action.

It is debatable, but I don't think  ultimately applicable.

This is not technically a punitive measure, only an addition to the tax law, regardless of its intent.

There is nothing retroactive about this.  The taxes aren't due until 2010. 

If Congress enacts a raise in the income tax or capital gains tax will I be able to argue that I earned the money before the new rule and therefore I'm exempt from paying?







Archer -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:34:56 AM)

The bill that just passed the House is retroactive and applies to tax year 2008. The law says that is post facto. And the intent of the law is to punish the Bill becomes federal law if it passes and the US Constitution doesn't differenciate between tax law and other forms when it says NO Ex Post Facto Laws shall be passed by Congress.





rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:36:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm still not buying it Rule...Archer seems to have proved my point quite nicely.This is retalitory and serves to do nothing other than create scapegoats to be sacrificed for the purpose of placating an angry populace.


Well Mike, I've made my point the best way I can think of.

I can only ask again why the autoworkers are expected to make pay and benefit concessions to save their failing companies while the AIG workers are supposedly entitled to huge bonuses and not asked to make any sacrifice?



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:40:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm still not buying it Rule...Archer seems to have proved my point quite nicely.This is retalitory and serves to do nothing other than create scapegoats to be sacrificed for the purpose of placating an angry populace.


Well Mike, I've made my point the best way I think of.

I can only ask again why the autoworkers are expected to make pay and benefit concessions to save their failing companies while the AIG workers are supposedly entitled to huge bonuses and not asked to make any sacrifice?



And that's the point I have yet to see anyone even attempt to answer. As far as I'm concerned, it's the beginning and the end of the matter.



slvemike4u -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 11:54:28 AM)

Yeah Panda,but the analogy doesn't really work.These are funds allready paid out...now if we were talking about taking money allready paid to those auto-workers and fashioning tax law to retrieve it than it would be analogous.



Archer -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:02:48 PM)

The point has been addressed several times
The UAW is not being asked to retroactively adjust their contracts, they are being asked to adjust their contracts from this point forward.
On the other hand the AIG bonuses are post facto, already earned by fulfilling the period of and the requirements for a bonus to be paid in their 2008 compesation package.

One is from now on we want, the other is We are going to go back a year and take away what you have already earned even if we have to violate the constitution to do it.



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:06:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yeah Panda,but the analogy doesn't really work.These are funds allready paid out...now if we were talking about taking money allready paid to those auto-workers and fashioning tax law to retrieve it than it would be analogous.


But the point is it was paid out after we bailed this company out.

So, on one hand we have the autoworkers being called greedy for not wanting to make pay concessions to help the automakers and on the other hand we have the AIG employees being pitied for not being able to retain extra pay outside their normal compensation.



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:11:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The point has been addressed several times
The UAW is not being asked to retroactively adjust their contracts, they are being asked to adjust their contracts from this point forward.
On the other hand the AIG bonuses are post facto, already earned by fulfilling the period of and the requirements for a bonus to be paid in their 2008 compesation package.

One is from now on we want, the other is We are going to go back a year and take away what you have already earned even if we have to violate the constitution to do it.




Again, why do we expect one group to sacrifice from the government saving their companies while we allow another group to financially benefit from it?



gman992 -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:13:06 PM)

Punitive tax? Isn't that redundant?



slvemike4u -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:15:31 PM)

Rule I'm all for asking these exec's to return all or some of these bonuses.I'm not for passing punitive ,retalitory tax code to recoup these monies....that is just wrong and a bad precedent for later on.



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:16:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

Punitive tax? Isn't that redundant?


No, unless you want to build your own roads, finance your own private military, and  provide for yourself all the the other government services that are taken for granted.



UncleNasty -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:17:22 PM)

Every thing about the debacle we're in has been handled in knee jerk, slip shod fashion. Why would anyone expect this "bonus" issue to be handled any differently.

I've always seen the solution as being a simple thing. Review records, events and peoples roles in such, and for those that have broken laws prosecute.

Uncle Nasty



servantforuse -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:21:16 PM)

The worst part of all of this ...... Barney Frank, Christopher Dodd and Tim Guettner all new that these bonuses were going to be paid. It's in the bailout bill that they wrote. They are just trying to cover there sorry asses. Maybe they come after AT%T next, or maybe IBM. It is against the constitution to do what they just did...



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:22:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Rule I'm all for asking these exec's to return all or some of these bonuses.I'm not for passing punitive ,retalitory tax code to recoup these monies....that is just wrong and a bad precedent for later on.


Of course, while you are defending them on the basis of principle they would have no problem using the very same tax code to keep their ill-gotten gains, if that was an option for them.





Archer -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:36:52 PM)

I was generally all for letting the bankruptcy court handle this from the start. (I lost that battle) But once they decided we were going to bail them out I was for making sure that the bailout was handled with as much time as needed to ensure that it was done right the first time.( I lost that battle)

Now I'm on principle more worried about the fact that Congress is so obviously over their heads about what to do that they are willing to do everything poorly and quickly, and then try to shift the focus of the people onto the bonuses instead of the fact that they rushed this move and did it so poorly.

Yes I am more worried about the fact that the US Congress is writting laws violating the US Constitution than I am about what happened to one tenth of one percent of the money I thought they shouldn't have given to AIG to begin with, and I believe you should be too.
But it's easier to be mad at someone taking a bonus, that was promised to them last year and due to be paid to them at the end of last year., because they are the "evil rich people" than it is to be mad at Congress and the President (both Bush and Obama in turn) for rushing the bailout and doing it in a poor way.





servantforuse -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:41:47 PM)

The folks who will get their bonuses taxed, at 90 % which will happen if the House gets their way, will file lawsuits and they will win. 



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:46:55 PM)

I see, it's the "evil rich people".

No, I would be just as angry at anyone from a failing company receiving a bonus.  Even if was $50.

And frankly, I don't see how anyone can defend this nonsense.



rulemylife -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 12:55:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer


But it's easier to be mad at someone taking a bonus, that was promised to them last year and due to be paid to them at the end of last year.


And again, and again, I keep repeating this, if we expect one group to sacrifice then why is the promise made to AIG execs any different than the pension, health care, and other promises made to autoworkers?



Archer -> RE: The House passes a punitive tax (3/20/2009 1:16:45 PM)

The difference is

From this point forward vs retroactive action

if both cases were one or the other I could agree it's equal on principle however it is an oranges and grapefruit thing as it stands, they are both citrus but they are not the same.

If they were going to the retired UAW workers and saying we're going to cut your benefits for 2008, you owe us $3,000. then it would be the same principle as saying to AIG folks your bonuses for 2008 are being recalled.

If they let the Dodd ammendment stand in the law and say from Feb 2009 forward no more bonuses beyond $X and they say UAW we're going to have to cut your benefits starting Today. Then it would be equal on priciple.

But they are saying UAW we're going to cut your benifits starting today but AIG we're going to cut your bonuses starting last year.



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