RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement?

RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (Full Version)

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stella41b -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 4:18:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I don't see it as a civil rights thing. There is a difference in whether one suffers legal and social issues because of who or what one is, rather than how they choose to live life. Okay so a same sex couple - is that according to you a choice or a necessity? quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Now I know we can debate all day about activity that doesn't fall into sexual realms, but ya know, any time someone's ass is getting spanked, one or more in that equation usually feel some sort of sexual response. And you're really sure about that, are you? quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I don't see it as an innate right to foster my sexuality nor the practice of it upon the public at large. Care to go back to my OP and indicate where I expressed such an opinion?

beargonewild -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 5:01:02 PM)
~FR~ As I read through the replies so far, I am saddened by the fact that the general attitude is one of apathy or it seems that the associated implications are not even considered. Too often I read how splintered the kink faction/section/community/collective is and how it is wished that they were more cohesion. Calling ta group of kinksters a "community" doesn't specifically mean we all live in the same area or state; it can also mean a collective of people with similar interests yet each is individual and unique. What it does boil down to is we all want to be able to engage in our kink proclivities without hiding, without wondering if what we do is legal or illegal and not have that fear that we could be charged with physical abuse or having our lives torn apart by the uninformed masses. What is a tragedy is this implication of it's each person for themselves and the hell with anyone else. Granted we are individual people yet we have a commonality which is the kink. We all want to have the right to go to a club and indulge in some BDSM and not worry about the place being raided, or in our own homes.

AquaticSub -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 5:09:39 PM)
~Fast Reply~ Several years ago, I did a project for school about BDSM. I choose to write, among other things, about people whose children had been taken away because judges deemed them unfit parents in divorce cases because of what they did with their then-spouses and what they never exposed their children to. "Don't ask, don't tell" only works as long as no one else drags your life into the light. One stray bruise showing at a doctor's office and Val could be thrown in jail. I don't think we need to have marches or form a community with one common goal (even feminism or civil rights never had that - there were disagreements about what should/needed to be done and there are still) but we do need to agree that everyone has certain rights and that those shouldn't be taken away because they happen to have a pair of cuffs in their dresser drawer.

beargonewild -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 5:22:19 PM)
I agree Aquatic, though there are ways to gain a sense of equality and community that does not require an "on you face" activism either. Many times taking the subtle and covert path is more effective. Hence correcting misconceptions in other people's biases and misconceived ideas of consensual kink activity.

AquaticSub -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 5:31:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild I agree Aquatic, though there are ways to gain a sense of equality and community that does not require an "on you face" activism either. Many times taking the subtle and covert path is more effective. Hence correcting misconceptions in other people's biases and misconceived ideas of consensual kink activity. Exactly. That is where I am most active. I speak openly for the most part what about I do (when it comes up, I have no need to shove it in anyone's face and I don't feel the need to wave it about where I might suffer for it) and strive to provide other points of view by telling people "Well this is what I do. Other people do it differently. For example some people do X, Y, Z and believe A, B, C." Usually it comes up after a "Oh I have to be home at this time", a question regarding a bruise or something that came from a discussion on feminsim and relationship structures. Or sometimes, since I also believe in sexual health education, I get asked questions about condoms and sexual activities and that leads into other things. I look at this issue the same way I look at gay rights. Parades are fun but what will change minds and help make sure our rights aren't infringed is if we are just are we are. If it comes up, don't hide it away. A person realizing that their friend or loved one puts a face on the "other".

roughleather -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/22/2009 9:16:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig I find he idea of "organized" bdsm to be ludicrous It can get very organized. Here's the agenda for the upcoming Leather Leadership Conference in Atlanta next month: http://loc.leatherleadership.org/llc13/presentations.html There are people who take this way too seriously.

Guilty1974 -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/24/2009 12:20:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves I agree there should be more BDSM activists groups and organizations but it could be there's lots of attention on other worldly issues right now so may be it gets kicked off to the side. I tend to mildly diagree. There's a lot of issues that need serious attention, war, poverty, the environment, but none of those issues is actually helped if we stop striving for more personal freedom with regard to sexual identity. On the contrary, we should be aware that these issues should not push human rights, gay rights and as far as I'm concerned BDSM rights of the agenda, 'cause the other issues all need a tolerant, open minded, liberal (in th ephilosophic meaning rather than just the political one) democratic society in which people don't have to hide their identity to get solved. Not an oppressive one. Civil rights are a prerequisite, not an luxury good.

beargonewild -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/24/2009 7:04:13 AM)
Granted all these issues you pointed out due deserve serious attention, yet the underlying point which I see is they are all still based upon equal rights for each person. How I see it, being an activist and vocal about certain issues means standing up and adding one's voice to the inequality, discrimination and the injustice that is everywhere on this planet. I fail to see how a collective that is pushing for tolerance equates to pushing one set of views above all else. All of us as human beings highly value personal freedom near the top and this also has to include how we express our sexual identity, our non sexual identity, our spirituality etc. and this also includes BDSM. For the most part BDSM has and always will have a strong sexual undercurrent to it. Yes I do understand that for many people sex doesn't play a part on their kink (physically) yet for many sex is a part of how the express their kink (physically). Yet in all cases, it is the psychological aspect of sexual attraction that is is part of BDSM play for all kinksters. Keeping in mind that sexuality is both physical and psychological in nature. quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I don't see it as a civil rights thing. There is a difference in whether one suffers legal and social issues because of who or what one is, rather than how they choose to live life. Being dominant or submissive isn't specific to living this lifestyle. Every individual on the face of the planet falls somewhere on the dom/sub graph. How dominant or submissive you are isn't measured by identifying your particular place on that graph and modifying your sexual and social practices accordingly. It doesn't come by capitalizing dominant, lower casing submissive, or engaging in a social environment where one side of the equation is always comfortable in black and leather and the other side shoots for corsets. Actually there really isn't any difference from how I see it. It still boils down to a restriction upon the people who engage in BDSM activities. We know that even here in the 21st century, many activities which we frequently engage in are still illegal in many states and in many countries. Granted these are very antiquated yet they are still enforceable. So what harm is there to try to get these ancient laws removed?

slavekal -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/24/2009 2:47:18 PM)
We don't have to be united as BDSMers. We have to be united as sovereign individuals with a right to privacy and a right to do as we please with other consenting adults. No government has a right to tell an individual what to do in the privacy of his/her own home.

stella41b -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 6:30:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavekal We don't have to be united as BDSMers. We have to be united as sovereign individuals with a right to privacy and a right to do as we please with other consenting adults. No government has a right to tell an individual what to do in the privacy of his/her own home. Agreed, but what if a government suddenly decides it does have the right? Then what? And how are you going to prevent them exercising these new rights as a 'sovereign' individual?

StrangerThan -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 6:54:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I don't see it as a civil rights thing. There is a difference in whether one suffers legal and social issues because of who or what one is, rather than how they choose to live life. Okay so a same sex couple - is that according to you a choice or a necessity? quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan Now I know we can debate all day about activity that doesn't fall into sexual realms, but ya know, any time someone's ass is getting spanked, one or more in that equation usually feel some sort of sexual response. And you're really sure about that, are you? quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan I don't see it as an innate right to foster my sexuality nor the practice of it upon the public at large. Care to go back to my OP and indicate where I expressed such an opinion? Hate quoting all that stuff above, but for it to make sense, I guess I should. So - Okay so a same sex couple - is that according to you a choice or a necessity? It's a choice, the same as it is for a hetero couple. No one requires you to live with anyone regardless of whether you're straight, bi or gay. Having said that, this is one of those areas of debate wherein we try to enclose the entire debate within a wrapper that has merit. I support anyone's choice to live with or be with whomever they want - mostly because it's none of my business and I don't really care. I would never support legislation to limit anything thereof. I happen to believe in the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness thing. Next - Am I really sure that in a spanking, ass-whipping, whatever type scenario someone is generally feeling some sort of sexual response? Yeah pretty much. I didn't say they engaged. But I'm open to changing that perspective if everyone here tells me different. That being said, I have disciplined/punished before and felt no sexual response. But as a general thing? Yeah. And finally, "Care to go back to my OP and indicate where I expressed such an opinion?" in terms of fostering one's sexuality or the practice of it upon the public at large. You're talking about it in terms of a civil rights extension - which means that tons and tons of legislation will follow that with folks sitting around trying to legislate what is appropriate and what is not. And in this case it covers a massive spectrum of sexual activities, dominance and submission activities, list goes on and on. That is fostering your practices, your sexual behavior on the public at large. The fact of the matter is, you can pretty much do what you want to do without some protetctive legislative umbrella. And the fact of the matter is that many things we do (collectively speaking) is an exercise limited to and should be limited to adult audiences. To me, that means it doesn't belong to the public at large and is a private, personal decision and choice. Another simple fact is that if you're not an idiot about it, you probably don't have a lot of worries about police raiding your home. I have no problem with what you want to practice. I do have a problem with putting sexual and private practices out in the ballpark for lawyers to sit around and determine what's appropriate and what's not - and part of that is that I despise sweeping legislation when it comes to handling the problem cases.

beargonewild -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 7:05:57 AM)
Since when if fighting for one's individual rights and freedoms translate to "fostering your practices, your sexual behavior on the public at large???"

StrangerThan -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 7:19:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Since when if fighting for one's individual rights and freedoms translate to "fostering your practices, your sexual behavior on the public at large???" Since when do you not have individual rights and freedoms? Since when do you need a constitutional amendment to proect your right to whip someone else's ass?

eyesopened -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 7:29:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild Since when if fighting for one's individual rights and freedoms translate to "fostering your practices, your sexual behavior on the public at large???" No one has answered this for me. What right and freedom am I denied?

thetammyjo -> RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movement? (3/25/2009 8:34:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves Hi. I agree there should be more BDSM activists groups and organizations but it could be there's lots of attention on other worldly issues right now so may be it gets kicked off to the side. We love hearing from people who support and share our interests. As someone who has done that... let me tell you, it is often a thankless job and burnt out rates are high. Even within the local communities of munches or workshops or play parties, folks are far more willing to bitch than to help out. Until that changes I don't see how those willing to do the work necessary to start and maintain movements are going to have the time, energy or desire to really do more than they currently do.

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