RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:19:41 PM)

       The definition you gave doesn't appeal much, Mia, but there are times I wish I could just fit into the group, and sail along with the flow.  It would make life less complicated.  It just never works out that way.




kdsub -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:36:55 PM)

In life most people do not want to be singled out for anything let alone original thinking. They will never be the first to state a position they usually wait and see how the majority is thinking then follow the group.

In the responses above all are saying they are independent...some are full of crap. It happens all the time...right here at CM... A particular thread will head one way or the other then there is an avalanche of agreement...Very seldom do you see a dissenting opinion and those that do are ganged up upon...even if they have viable arguments.

We as a group are no better than any other.

Butch




MzMia -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:40:36 PM)

I disagree with you Butch.
Everyone on CollarMe, is hardly a "group thinker".
I see many that "step" outside of the box, all the time.

Try not to paint everyone with such a broad brush.




kdsub -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:43:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I disagree with you Butch.
Everyone on CollarMe, is hardly a "group thinker".
I see many that "step" outside of the box, all the time.


I think you see the same ones doing the stepping...while the majority safely follows.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:52:45 PM)

Butch's perception is closer to mine. One month I will get Cmail thanking me for something, and the next the same poster will be pissed because I did not agree with them on something else. I have few friends, but the one's I have like me because I do not always agree with them, or just go with the flow.

I am an independent thinker, that enjoys selective comraderie.




MzMia -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 10:57:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Butch's perception is closer to mine. One month I will get Cmail thanking me for something, and the next the same poster will be pissed because I did not agree with them on something else. I have few friends, but the one's I have like me because I do not always agree with them, or just go with the flow.

I am an independent thinker, that enjoys selective comraderie.


At this stage of my life, I don't want or need to be close "friends" with people
that only care for me when I "agree" with them.
I rather have people around me that tell me the truth, and hopefully keep me
from doing dumb shit.
I rather hear the truth, and what you really think, than being surrounded by "yes"
men, that can't tell you the truth.




cpK69 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 11:00:05 PM)

FR

Am I mistaken in thinking that “group thinking” has little to do with the people you hang with? Doesn’t it pretty much boil down to going against someone else because they are not what you are? Including but not limited to such things as political group, religion/or not, sports fan…?
Kim




MzMia -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 11:06:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

FR

Am I mistaken in thinking that “group thinking” has little do due with the people you hang with? Doesn’t it pretty much boil down to going against someone else because they are not what you are? Including but not limited to such things as political group, religion/or not, sports fan…?
Kim



Group thinking may or may not be "the people you hang with".
It depends on the dynamics of the group.
If the group fits the criteria, whether it is "the people you hang with",
a church group or the PTA, any group is capable of "group thinking".

If you allow people to have divergent opinions, and people are not afraid
to speak UP, and are not rejected by the group, for having different opinions than it is not group thinking.
Normally in order to have "group think" you must behave as a cohesive unit.
Groupthink has a very concise and clear definition.  
  What is Groupthink




cpK69 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 11:23:41 PM)

I don’t know, MzMia, I’m not seeing a lot of cohesiveness going on these days. I was cut off for a while; maybe I missed something.
What I’ve been seeing going on over here is more like, ‘out for number one’ “Oh, you going my way?”
Kim




Vanityfull -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/21/2009 11:47:22 PM)

group thinker here!

mostly i just wanted to be a different awnser...




FullfigRIMAAM1 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 6:38:15 AM)

On this subject, sometimes there is a fine line between being an individual who knows about basic social mores, and has social skills, and one who is on the antisocial/pathological side.   I'm not any more fond of the time when I was extremely shy, than the drama queens and attention seekers.

I do better alone or in small groups, because I have no qualms parting ways with the group if the thinking becomes petty or toxic.   I work with folks who have great potential for petty thinking and lateral violence.   There is a lot of elitism/classism within the work environment.   So most folks try to put on an "I fit here facade", rather than knowing deep within to feel "I'm comfortable here simply because I'm qualified, and can do my work well."    Most of the times, I have no interest in the gossip, happenings, who is whom, etc.    It's a classic case of the majority may very well be insane, but it's what is normal here.     M




UncleNasty -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 8:30:40 AM)

Off the cuff responses:

Humans are social animals. Another way to think of that is we are herd animals. We may as well be herds of antelope on the veldt.

I read, think, talk, write, correspond, etc. I spend a lot of time communicating in one form or another. Through all of that I still wonder if I've ever had an original thought or idea.

There is a difference between how we think of and define ourselves, and how others do same. Our own viewpoint is particularly objective and biased. So while it seems to buck the definition of "independent thinker" I expect the best way to determine whether we are, or aren't, is to gather thoughts and opinions of others that know us well enough to have an informed and objective opinion.

Uncle Nasty




FullCircle -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 8:44:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vanityfull
group thinker here!
mostly i just wanted to be a different awnser...

I'll take advantage of group thinking too since everyone else is rejecting it.
 
Now give me your thoughts, I don't want to have to get by brain scooping device out.[8|]
 
Oh the joy of being the only individual thinkers on a thread where everyone else has admitted to group thinking by insisting they are individual thinkers.[8|]




cpK69 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 8:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Oh the joy of being the only individual thinkers on a thread where everyone else has admitted to group thinking by insisting they are individual thinkers.[8|]


Irony, or something like it?
 
Kim




DesFIP -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 9:00:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

"Group thinker" does not make much sense. I would rather say: "group follower". Decisions are made and thinking is mostly done by group leaders.


Brainstorming, thinking outside the box, finding new ways to do things are best done in non authority groups. We get information from others, not from the ether. In a good brainstorming group, people feel free to suggest anything no matter how odd it may sound. And these off the wall suggestions spark ideas in others who may come up with the best solution but who would never have thought of it without the input from the other people.

And that's why group thinking can be useful. But obviously only in an atmosphere where there is no authority figure shooting people down with ridicule in the moment.




cpK69 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 9:24:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Humans are social animals. Another way to think of that is we are herd animals. We may as well be herds of antelope on the veldt.


People are diehard traditionalist, not herd animals. The difference being, the herd animal will always do the same things, even when uprooted and forced to move; while people can adjust according to their environment.
Metaphorically speaking: the herd walks around with their heads up each other’s butts, while people go around chasing their own.
Kim




kidwithknife -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 10:02:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

I will be surprised if anyone admits to being a "group thinker". I mean, who would see that as a positive thing? Almost everyone likes to think of themselves as a willful and independent person, regardless of what objective information shows.
Particuarly because the archetype of the "rugged individualist" is so ingrained into our culture.

(It would be interesting to know how many people who consider themselves independent thinkers would also see themselves as alphas.  As the two are essentially contradictory).




pahunkboy -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 10:03:40 AM)

let me reword her question:


Are you a people person?   Do you get along with others?  Do you work well with others?  Are you a TEAM player?

Ironically such questions are often asked at job interviews.

I accidentally seen an employee evaluation write up on me a few years ago.  It hurt at the time, but in hindsite it was the truth.

"Lacks socialization skills."      3 little words.

So I pondered how did this happen?   Knowing that a few of my comments were mis-interpreted, and a few people did not want that job position funded with ANYBODY, was only part of the answer.

Some of an adults socialization skills are formed in the 6th grade.  That is when I started to pull in to myself. I knew I was different.  Peer pressure was starting on boys chasing girls.  I thought I would grow into this later.  But later never came.  It wasnt till the 11th grade when I was expelled from School that I become verbal. Being expelled- I had nothing to lose.  So I started talking.  Shocking to me that others wanted to hear what I had to say. Not all of it- but some of it.  This fired me up into productive mode.  I attended summer school, and managed to earn honor roll, AND graduated 1 semester early!!!!

So- in evaluating the work snafu, quite possibly I missed something between grades 6-11 in the socialization department.

:-)

Aside from that- we did an excerisice in the Americore, on personality.   There are something like 4 of them.  I am the diamond.  This is a more original thinker mode.

Now on Socialization, this can mean telling people what they want to hear- even tho you or both know such a comment is only partially true.  But it is done as a nicety, as a way of being civil to one another.   On that- I am a complete idiot and a boor.   I say what I think and that can back fire big time.    lol






variation30 -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 10:15:37 AM)

I had low citizenship scores or elementary school.




UPSG -> RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? (3/22/2009 10:24:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Off the cuff responses:

Humans are social animals. Another way to think of that is we are herd animals. We may as well be herds of antelope on the veldt.


That's what I've always been told, that humans are social animals. This is probably a major reason why community, ethnicity, marriage, and various cultures different notions of "heritage" are important to us. We regard loyalty as a virtue, no?

Group think is probably most pronounced in small groups or within the rank and file of corporations (Japanese corporations have been notorious for this).

Obtaining the rank of Corporal in the USMC comes with a different level of responsibility than obtaining that same rank in the U.S. Army. As a Corporal the group size you are charged with, I think definitely is applicable to "group think." On one hand, group think is critical to the cohesiveness and success of a rifle team or squad. Yet, on the other hand, strong leadership is needed if a level of ethics is to be maintained and rape and atrocities committed against local non-combatants to be avoided. That means raising the muzzle end of your rifle to the cranium of your troop, and letting him know, and others, in no uncertain terms, that if he or others follow through with rape or assault, you will blow their brains out in nano seconds.

Lots of atrocities occur in military units because of group think. Civilians - especially with no military experience - think you should let every rapist any violent convict in the military to fight wars. Military officers know differently. History has shown differently.

Famed Black-American jazz artists Wynston Marsalis once said that you can't be a rebel in the contemporary youth culture of Black-America if you dismiss and deplore formal education and the development of your own academic knowledge base. He stated that to be a rebel required going against the grain and not following the norm. Not that one should be a rebel for the sake of being a rebel, but I have to agree with homie on this.

The idea of "common knowledge" or the group's "we all know" are very strong articles of faith in contemporary U.S. culture and from my experience, especially so in Black-American groups. Sometimes common knowledge may be correct or partially correct, and sometimes it can be incorrect or partially incorrect. So, independent thinking seems to require one reflect within his or her own thoughts and counsil.

I think Malcolm X demonstrated breaking from group think when he began to depart from the articles of faith within the N.O.I. It cost him his life of course.



quote:

Wynton Learson Marsalis (born October 18, 1961) is an American trumpeter and composer. He is among the most prominent jazz musicians of the modern era and is also a well-known instrumentalist in classical music. He is also the Musical Director of Jazz at Lincoln Center. A compilation of his series of inspirational letters to a young jazz musical student, named Anthony, has been published as To a Young Jazz Musician.

Marsalis has made his reputation with a combination of skill in jazz performance and composition, a sophisticated yet earthy and hip personal style, an impressive knowledge of jazz and jazz history, and skill as a virtuoso classical trumpeter. As of 2006, he has made sixteen classical and more than thirty jazz recordings, has been awarded nine Grammys between the genres, and has been awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Music, the first time it has been awarded for a jazz recording.
 




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